Transcript | US v Pfc. Manning, Article 39(a) Session, 11/30/12

US v. Pfc. Manning is being conducted in de facto secrecy. For more information on the lack of public and press access to United States v. Pfc. Manning, visit the Center for Constitutional Rights, which filed a petition requesting the Army Court of Criminal Appeals (ACCA) "to order the Judge to grant the public and press access to the government's motion papers, the court's own orders, and transcripts of proceedings, none of which have been made public to date."

This transcript was taken at the Article 39(a) session of United Stated v. Pfc. Manning at Fort Meade, Maryland on November 30, 2012.

  • Judge: Army Col. Denise Lind

  • Prosecution: Major Ashden Fein, Captain Joe Morrow, Captain Angel Overgaard, Captain Hunter Whyte, Captain Alexander Von Elton

  • Defense: Mr. David Coombs, Captain Joshua Tooman, Major Thomas Hurley

ALL RISE

Judge Lind

Please be seated. This Article 39(a) Session is called to order. Let the record reflect all parties present when the Court last recessed are again present in Court. Major Fein have there been some photos that have been substituted for the record? And, Mr. Coombs?

Defense (Coombs)

Yes there have your Honor. They have been marked as appellate exhibit 425.

Judge Lind

Alright, that would be photographs for the depiction of the cell that was on the floor yesterday. I believe it's gone. And, does either side any objections to substitutions of photographs for the record?

Defense (Coombs)

No, your Honor.

Prosecution (Fein)

No, your Honor.

Judge Lind

And, for the record counsel and I met yesterday in an RCM 802 conference. Once again, that's a conference where I talk about scheduling and logistics issues in the case with counsel, and we have made some adjustments to the trial calendar.

We had scheduled to go all the way through Sunday this week [December 2, 2012] with the witnesses for the Article 13. It appears we will not be able to get through all the witnesses by Sunday. So, we have amended the Court calendar. Originally the case was next set to go from the 10th through the 14th of December. We have cancelled that session. Instead, we will be going the 5th, 6th, 7th of December.

That's next Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. And, we will make further adjustments to the trial calendar based on that change-- counsel and I are going to meet at some point even tonight or later on this weekend to finalize the remainder of the trial calendar, but there will be some changes. And, that change was made with the consent of both sides, is that correct?

Defense (Coombs)

Yes, your Honor.

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes, your Honor.

Judge Lind

Is there anything else we need to address before we continue with the witnesses?

Defense (Coombs)

No, your Honor.

Prosecution (Fein)

No, your Honor.

Judge Lind

Alright, Pfc. Manning. I believe you were on the stand.

Defense (Coombs)

Pfc. Manning, I remind you, you are under oath.

Prosecution (Fein)

Private First Class Manning, other than the one time I was in front of you briefly in the case, we have never actually spoken before today, correct?

Pfc. Manning

You mean in October of 2011? Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes, November of 2011?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, all the information that I have is based off of your witness testimony, discovery as you referenced yesterday, recordings, and only that information. Not, anything from you?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

What I would like to first focus your attention on Private Frist Class Manning is your cell, as you walked through yesterday, and comparing that to disciplinary cells that you were not ever actually in at Quantico, at least to the best of-- of the prosecution's knowledge.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You were in a standard cell under POI and MAX custody, correct?

Pfc. Manning

For Special Quarters?

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you had three walls, a toilet, a sink, a rack, and the bars in front?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you are in a cell that had a skylight in the hallway?

Pfc. Manning

Further down the hallway, yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, a wall of windows that we saw in the video, yesterday?

Pfc. Manning

There were windows at the end of the hallway, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, natural light could come into the windows, but necessarily directly through your bars, right in front of your cell?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You did not have a steel door, directly in front of you?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You didn't have a steel door in front of the bars that were...?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You did not live in the quarters that only had a small window or half, and that was available at Quantico?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And while at Quantico, you lived where all the other pretrial detainees lived?

Pfc. Manning

For a significant portion, yes, sir. I believe the first couple weeks I was there. They still had a housing unit-- another area where they had people.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

[Missed.]

Prosecution (Fein)

But when you-- when you for instance left to do rec hall, or go visit the counselor, had a defense attorney meeting, and you walked by at time other cells, and they were the same as yours?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Now to talk about the smock that you-- you showed or you demonstrated for the Court yesterday.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Yesterday, you testified at one point you were stuck in your smock and Corporal Sanders had to assist you in getting your arms out?

Pfc. Manning

[missed but affirmative as in, 'Yes, sir']

Prosecution (Fein)

And, another incident occurred on about 13 March 2011?

Pfc. Manning

I don't recall the date. It was mid-March. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, that night that your arms got stuck, you decided to sleep with your arms inside the smock?

Pfc. Manning

I believe I got into that position as I was falling asleep. So, I-- I might have naturally just done that, not really aware of, you know, doing it purposely, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you were told not to put your arms inside of the smock?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

That you needed a blanket to cover up your arms if they got cold?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Now to go...to go prior to showing up in Quantico. I'd like to focus your attention on Kuwait.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

While in Kuwait you admitted to being suicidal?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You admitted to making two nooses and scavenged for metal objects that could cause harm to yourself?

Pfc. Manning

I don't know about the metal objects. And, I don't know about two nooses.

I certainly made one...I certainly made one that I know of, sir. I-- the sheet noose, in particular, the one that I remember, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, when speaking to your psychiatrist downrange, Captain Richardson.--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--about your suicidal ideation, did you describe yourself as being patient?

Pfc. Manning

I'm not-- I'm not sure. I just remember being patient wanting to get off of suicide risk. I don't know if there was a misinterpretation of that. But, I could see how my words were construed that way or [missed a few words] Captain Richardson.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And then-- when you arrived in Quantico-- well you arrived in Quantico on 29 July 2010?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, when you arrived on your in processing form, you stated to the question, 'Have you ever considered suicide?' you checked the box, yes?

Pfc. Manning

I was-- I was told that I had to by-- I mean, they didn't tell me I had to. They said-- cause as I'm going through I have the-- I had the guards assisting-- assisting me.

I mean I was-- I was in restraints, so I couldn't complete the paperwork without them. And, I didn't think that they were sort of observing whatever I wrote, and everything else.

But, they-- Corporal-- then Corporal Hanks-- Gunnery Sergeant Hanks instructed-- instructed me that I had to answer everything in particular-- in that row and I did not. I mean I did do that. I put a 'not' in there, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, he didn't order you to say, 'Yes' or 'No' in the check box?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, Sir. He just asked the question, you know, 'You are on suicide risk. You were on suicide risk in Kuwait. Shouldn't you...?' It was more of an implied question, rather than order, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, for the question, 'Have you ever considered suicide?' you checked the box, yes?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, Sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, then on that same form there is a space to where you can fill in any comments?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you, in your own handwriting wrote, 'Always planning, and never acting'.

Pfc. Manning

Yes. I was told that if I checked the box that I had to put something down in that particular location. I could have put [missed word]. I could have put something in...something other than that. That is what I put down there, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Now to speak about the two nooses, what has been marked as-- well photo substitution as appellate exhibit 416, your Honor. Do you recognize this sheet?

Pfc. Manning

I do, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You do?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Is this the sheet that you made a noose out of?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Your Honor, what has been marked as appellate exhibit 417. Private First Class Manning, do you recognize these sandbag ties?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. Those were found-- I was told that those were found in my cell, and yes, they are sandbag ties.

Prosecution (Fein)

And the noose that you made out of these sandbag ties?

Pfc. Manning

I don't recall-- I don't recall constructing a noosed out of them, but they were found in my cell.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. What about the two metal objects that were also collected by CID at the same time?

Pfc. Manning

Those were found in my-- near my cell, or outside my cell, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Now to focus your time, or continue to focusing your time at the beginning-- your time at Quantico, when asked by Gunny Blenis at the beginning when you started at Quantico, you told him that you had made a noose out of sandbag ties?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir. I told him that sandbag-- that I had [missed] had been to me that sandbag ties were found in my cell at a particular moment, and that I didn't just do that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, but you also-- didn't-- well, did you tell him about the bed sheet noose?

Pfc. Manning

I did, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

That is his-- just to be clear I am talking about when you first arrived, in your first counseling session.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Not in subsequent ones?

Pfc. Manning

End of July 2010.

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes.

Pfc. Manning

[Missed. Not clear if Manning said, 'about that time']

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And, you did or did not tell him also about the two metal objects that were also found?

Pfc. Manning

I did not.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, what I would like to do now is-- is kind of the same line of questioning about your suicidal ideations, focus on 7 January 2011? As you probably remember yesterday you testified that, that is when you finally decided to submit a chit, a DD Form 5-10, about your POI status?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, that was on 7 January? That date is when you decided to ask for a review of your classification status?

Pfc. Manning

To the commander, yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, and can you describe for the Court the process of how you submit that chit to the commander?

Pfc. Manning

I requested for a DD Form 5-10, which is-- the Marines Corps calls it's forms 'chits'. So, it is referred to as a 5-10 'chit'.

And then I requested for-- and I had to do this during correspondence time, sir.

So, I was given a pen. And, I filled out-- I filled out the necessary portion section 'request to'. And, I kept-- and I filled out one, and then I filled out another, labeled as 'copy', and then initialed that one, which I'd have, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then once you fill out the document, what do you physically do with it?

Pfc. Manning

I had the option of either giving to the guard or requesting for the cart to actually be-- for the special-- for the forms that were written for the commander had a cart, in which there were two mail boxes. One for, I think the Inspector General and one for the commander.

And, I place the one for the commander-- I asked, Lance Corporal Bell, to put it into the-- to the mailbox-- the box for the Brig CO [Commanding Officer] the [missed] outbox, or drop box.

And then, he placed it in it, or I-- or I did. So, [missed] through the feed tray, and put it in, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, so like this old ballot box had a lock on it?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, the guards can't just poke them in and take out anything that is submitted by a detainee?

Pfc. Manning

Correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

So it's for the IG and the Brig CIO?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, so you submitted that on 21 January or 7 January?

Pfc. Manning

On 7...on 7 January, and I filled out two.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

So, I filled out one for my-- my [missed]. I put in a 5-10 chit in mid-December and I don't know if that ever got anywhere. If it got lost or [missed], sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, why didn't the...December was that in the box, or did you give that to the guard?

Pfc. Manning

I gave that to just the guard. I did not put it in the box.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, that was a chit that you filled out for anyone in the facility, but not the one specifically designed for the Brig CO [Commanding Officer]?

Pfc. Manning

Correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, the one that you filled out on 7 January and dated 7 January on the top, right on the form, that one you submitted it went into the box, the locked box?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

When?

Pfc. Manning

That was 7 January of 2011?

Prosecution (Fein)

Thank you. And was that chit that you submitted to Chief Averhart in a locked box, was that responded to?

Pfc. Manning

Not immediately, Sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. But, when was it responded to?

Pfc. Manning

It might have been sometime a week maybe two weeks later. I had brought it up with my chain of command, like company commander, and then--

Prosecution (Fein)

--[missed]

Pfc. Manning

--it's Captain Casamatta. That was my company commander, so.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, what did you request in that chit?

Pfc. Manning

I requested-- I don't remember-- I don't remember-- I don't recall exactly what I was requesting from it, but essentially I outlined the sections of the Brig order that I looked at that I was referencing.

And, I requested for a Classification & Assignment board, or to at least to attend one or have-- have-- have one in regards to my prevention of injury status, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, on 21 January you went before the board?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, on 21 January 2011, you appeared before the C&A board?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. I physically attended that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, when you attended there, you were asked why you had made the statement, 'Always planning, and never acting'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you answered then that-- that statement, when you had made it originally may have been false?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then another member of the board-- there's three members of the board?

Pfc. Manning

There were three in attendance. There was Gunnery Sergeant Blenis-- then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, Gunnery Sergeant Fuller, and another like a member, but he's a Staff Sergeant. I don't recall.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, then another member of the board said, 'If that may have been false, then should we believe-- why should we believe whether you are going to harm yourself today?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

And you answered, 'yes' to that?

Pfc. Manning

It was a lot more of a-- it wasn't just the 'yes', sir. It was part of a-- of a lengthy sort of-- you know, philosophical-- I mean that was a philosophical question.

So, I did that-- said, 'This is a philosophical question, [missed word],' sir. It was a more general answer-- wasn't-- he wanted an intellectual answer to that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, what was the, I guess, the intellectual answer?

Pfc. Manning

I mean there's-- I mean, there's-- there's a lot of things in regards to, you know, whether something is false or otherwise something is true, you know-- if he was infallible and, you know it's hard to-- it's hard to gauge things, you know, without evidence. So, that-- I was just pretty broad with that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, what about evidence? But, then again on the form that they were referencing at the time and they were discussing--

Pfc. Manning

--that is correct, Sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--what you had written, which was 'Always planning'-- in your handwriting, 'Always planning, never acting'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But then you said, that you didn't really mean that?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, so this-- this intellectual conversation that you, I guess in your eyes, finally getting at the Brig, was about whether you meant it then or you were being truthful today, then, on 21 January, that you were not suicidal?

Pfc. Manning

I-- I thought it was more about-- about, at that particular time-- and I didn't-- I mean I didn't-- I didn't realize that they were trying to do that, but I was thinking at that particular moment.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And, then after that the third member of the board actually reiterated and asked you, 'Do you understand the question?' Just to make sure there was no confusion, and you answered, 'yes'.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, on 21 January 2011, when you went before the board for the first time, when asked you still hadn't provided the Brig officials with a clear answer of what you meant, when you said, 'Always planning, never acting'?

Pfc. Manning

I did-- I did say that it might have been sarcastic, sir.

It was a sarcastic answer, given, you know, just out on a whim, because I knew I was going to be placed on suicide risk status.

I mean that was-- I had been told that. And, because I was placed on it in Kuwait, sir, it didn't really make a difference, what answer I gave, because-- I mean-- I was going to be placed on the same status, sir. [Missed a statement.]

Prosecution (Fein)

But, if that was the reason, then why would you ask then to go before the board?

Cause this was, you had said that this was your first chance that you had thought about, I mean that is what you said yesterday-- to get before the board to tell them your side of the story about why you shouldn't be on POI?

Pfc. Manning

Right.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, then when you are given the opportunity, you didn't-- you didn't take it?

Pfc. Manning

I did, as far-- as far I understood the process, I did. I just told them that today, you know-- in January 2011-- again January 2011, I am not suicidal.

I'm not trying-- I am not trying to harm myself or anything like that, you know, I didn't understand the relevance of-- and that one of the things-- and I think that was the issue I was having, is that I didn't understand the relevance of the July 29, 2010 form-- cause it was so far back.

I hadn't even-- I had actually forgotten that-- that had even been written down, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, on 21 January you're saying, something you actually said yesterday too, at that board your first chance to really confront these issues--

Pfc. Manning

--yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--that-- well, your thought of confronting these issues, you had forgotten what you had written down?

Pfc. Manning

I had forgotten about that form, yes. I forgotten about the intake form.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Are you familiar when you and your defense counsel submitted a 138 complaint?

Pfc. Manning

You know, sir, I know that I put-- I know that-- I think I told the Brig staff about it before it was filed--

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

--sir. I knew-- cause I knew what he was gathering, I just didn't know when Mr. Coombs had officially filed it, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, when he officially filed it on 19 January, two days before the board, that laid out everything we have been talking about, including the original form classification--

Pfc. Manning

--yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--you didn't know-- you didn't remember until 21 January that, that's what you wrote on the form?

Pfc. Manning

I had completely forgot about that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, even though on 18 January, when the video that we watched yesterday was filled, and you had the discussion with Chief Blenis about that, you didn't remember three days later at the C&A board?

Pfc. Manning

Wasn't the C&A before that, sir?

Prosecution (Fein)

No. The C&A board was on 21 January. The video that we watched yesterday was filmed on 18 January.

Pfc. Manning

Okay, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you had that discussion on that video we watched yesterday with Chief Blenis, about why did you write on the form, why did you make the nooses, why there are inconsistencies there, and you both had a dialogue back and forth...

Pfc. Manning

--parts of it.

Prosecution (Fein)

--so then when you had the chance to go before the board on 21 January, you didn't take that opportunity to even explain to the three board panel, why it was that you made that decision to write that down on the form?

Pfc. Manning

I did. I mean-- whenever asked about it, I did. At least, I felt I did, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you just said that you didn't remember writing that?

Pfc. Manning

I'd-- I'd forgotten about the form. That is what I said.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So in that 3 day period you had forgotten about the form?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

I would like to do now-- kind of-- direct your attention to-- is the different avenues that you had to logged complaints of seek redress.

You just spoke about one, and article 138 process. Did you know about the 138 process before being, I guess, detained in pretrial confinement?

Pfc. Manning

I had seen an ask.com article about it in 2009, but I had never really gotten into such-- the depth of it, sir.

So, I knew that it existed, sir, but not really in terms of exact context [missed a few words], sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

I assume also it is not something that is normally talked about everyday, the 138 process?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, Sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, you did submit through counsel on 19 January an Article 138 complaint?

Pfc. Manning

In January, yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, yesterday you testified about the MRE [Military Rules for Evidence] 305(g) re-evaluation of your pretrial confinement status to your UCMJ [Uniform Code of Military Justice] command, you submitted on 13 January 2011?

Pfc. Manning

That's the Special Court Martial Convening Authority?

Prosecution (Fein)

To Colonel Coffman?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You are also aware that-- that Mr. Coombs on your behalf, submitted to Chief Averhart directly a memo requesting re-evaluation on 5 January 2011?

Pfc. Manning

On 5 January? I don't-- I don't recall that one, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

I had put in-- I had put in the 5-10 not realizing that, that had [missed word], sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

I thought I was doing that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, I am actually talking about something completely different, so you did, at least from the documentation in discovery, you did file a 5-10; but I am just talking about separately on 5 January, that your defense counsel on your behalf submitted directly to Chief Averhart, a memo request?

Pfc. Manning

Okay, yes, sir. I did not-- I did not recall that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So-- so these three formal-- more formal requests were submitted on your behalf, and then like you just talked about, the fourth way, is you had the chit and DD 5-10 process either informally with a guard or formally through the locked box?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, Sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you also had other avenues to seek redress directly, didn't you? You did?

Pfc. Manning

I mean, I can verbally ask, that's one.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, Colonel Oltman visited you periodically?

Pfc. Manning

A colonel did, a Marines colonel. I don't-- I don't-- they came through periodically, sir. I don't-- they didn't really introduce themselves very [deeply?], sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Cause I don't think there were even name tags given?

Pfc. Manning

They do, but I don't-- I look at the rank first. Or I look at it--

Prosecution (Fein)

Sure. That makes sense. But, periodically Marines colonels, or a colonel, multiple colonels would come through? And, have discussion with you?

Pfc. Manning

I wouldn't-- well, they would come by and I would see them, and they would see me, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You had other avenues of using privileged communication?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir, [missed statement].

Prosecution (Fein)

[Missed] [Sergeant? David? First?]. He's a Chaplain, visit you?

Pfc. Manning

I did have a chaplain visit me, yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Did you make any special requests to have certain chaplains visit you?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir. We had a chaplain that came by weekly, if not weekly, then at least once or a few times a month, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you mentioned the IG. You know that you had a lock box that you could submit issues to the Inspector General?

Pfc. Manning

I did. I-- it was also, I 'm not familiar with how the [missed word] system works, because the requests [missed] system as well.

But, I-- on both of those, the Inspector General and request [missed] for the Marine Corps. I was not familiar with how that process works.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, when the cart would roll by there was a box that you could submit some papers in, at least, maybe a form, maybe not, but some-- something in a locked box to get to the IG?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Also, members of your command, they visited you, almost every week?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. At least once every week, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

We will talk about that in a little bit, but-- so, you had a lot of options to exercise as far as getting redress or lodging any forms of complaints about your treatments status or anything else going on?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you never asked the chaplain to help you with anything?

Pfc. Manning

No. I mentioned about the prevention of injury with the chaplain pretty frequently, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Did you ever ask a chaplain to assist you in understanding why or to change your status?

Pfc. Manning

I talked to him about it. I didn't necessarily make a formal request with him, but I mentioned the fact that I really wanted to get off of the status, and then I stopped.  

I was surprised that I was still on it. And, you know we talked, and then-- he was somebody that, you know-- and we had-- he kept-- he was the only other person that I could talk to on sort of an 'at level' basis, sir.

But he had, I mean, he had other-- he didn't have a lot of time. So, I didn't [missed statement] him or anything. And, I am not-- I'm not a religious person, but [missed statement]. I would still talk with him.

Prosecution (Fein)

What do you mean by 'at level', like you just said it today, and you said it many times yesterday? What do you mean by 'at level' basis?

Pfc. Manning

It's-- it's-- there's a moment-- I mean as a junior enlisted person-- that I'm engaged at to where you can speak with a-- somebody that is of a higher rank with you, you know, where you-- the ranks are-- it's-- it's set aside for a moment, sir, but it [missed a phrase] a person to person conversation, as opposed to a subordinate and a superior, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Is it the rank that is set aside or is it just being completely relaxed and having this kind of intellectual conversation?

Pfc. Manning

It's-- it's-- I'd say it is both, sir. Cause-- I mean, you really do have to-- at that moment in my mind, sir, sort of set aside the fact that you're in a subordinate and a superior relationship.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And, what was the Chaplain's name that you said you talked all the time about your POI status?

Pfc. Manning

I don't recall his name. I filled-- I gave to-- I gave to-- I put-- I remember that I told Captain Casamatta his name whenever he put that down on the form. But, I don't-- I don't recall his name.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, it was a male chaplain?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, maybe Marines don't have chaplains?

Pfc. Manning

I guess-- I guess he was. He wore the Marines Corps uniform, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. It was the ACU uniform?

Pfc. Manning

MARPATs.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Did you ever file anything into the IG slot that was locked and would go right to the IG?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Earlier you spoke about the chit's, DD form 5-10s?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you filed six chits while you're at Quantico, correct?

Pfc. Manning

I think I filed more, but some-- some-- they had a tendency-- some of the ones that were given just directly to the guards had a tendency of going missing.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well I think you are right, first off because I can't count [missed]. So, at least nine?

Pfc. Manning

I would say it would have to be at least-- at least a dozen, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And you knew about this chit DD form 5-10 process from the day you in-processed?

Pfc. Manning

From the day I in processed at Kuwait.

Prosecution (Fein)

Oh. You knew about it in Kuwait?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. All-- all military correction facilities utilized the DD form-- the DD form 5-10 system or a modification like that.

Prosecution (Fein)

What do they call it at the JRCF?

Pfc. Manning

They modify it to their military correctional complex 5-10 forms. So, that it's a modified DD form 5-10. They just remove some of the administrative things for the facility they use it as, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Does it have a common name other than like, 'chit' that they use at--

Pfc. Manning

Well--

Prosecution (Fein)

--[missed last few words].

Pfc. Manning

[Missed].

Prosecution (Fein)

Makes sense. I would like to go through some of these. If you don't remember, please let me know, and I will help refresh your memory?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

The one that you dated on the 7th of January 2011, Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart, that was the one that you put into a locked box for him?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir. And I-- and I-- and I made a duplicate for my own purposes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And you wrote on there, 'request lifting' or 'subject for purposes of the interview'-- now they use the term interview, is it really-- does it always necessarily mean 'interview' like one on one interview?

Pfc. Manning

No. It's just the way the form is set up, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, what-- what is-- what is the different ways you can use this form?

Pfc. Manning

So, you can use it just to request to speak to somebody. You can sometimes use it just for anything-- put your-- just your request in general without wanting to see anybody.

You can-- basically it's your-- it's the formal-- it's the semi formal way of communicating with the staff at a correctional facility [missed word], sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, on this one dated 7 January, you wrote, 'request lifting your prevention of injury status and custody classification review including Brig justification of MAX custody status'? And, then you cited the different rules within the regulations?

Pfc. Manning

The-- the-- I only had access to the Brig Order at that time, sir, so.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, the rules and regulations of the Brig?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

On 4 January-- so one submitted three days beforehand, you did one requesting books from your aunt?

Pfc. Manning

4 January?

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, 2011?

Pfc. Manning

2011? Yes, I think so.

Prosecution (Fein)

Specifically, even the books you were asking for you talked about yesterday, 'People's History of the United States', 'A Journey in my Political Life', 'Good Soldier' David Finkel-- so, you requested that. Did you get those books?

Pfc. Manning

Some of them. I put a-- I put a-- I put a broad list of them. I didn't-- they weren't necessarily books that I was going to receive. Just a-- I put a-- sort of a shot gun approach, which one's my aunt was going to send me.

Prosecution (Fein)

By shot gun approach, you mean just everything you could think of she'll send, and hopefully some of the-- some of them will show up?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And, when they showed up, did you get those books by the Brig?

Pfc. Manning

Not-- not immediately, but I did eventually get them. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, they approved you receiving books, and you received them?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. They have a-- they have a process, but I forgot how exactly that worked, but they had a-- they had a process [missed a few words].

Prosecution (Fein)

On the 19th of December of 2010, you submitted a request for an emergency phone call with attorney reference Vice President Joseph Biden?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, did you get that phone call with your attorney?

Pfc. Manning

I don't know. I had a-- I eventually got an attorney phone call. I was requesting one more immediately than that, because I had heard something strange going on, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Well did you talk to him the next day at 12:25?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, Sir. But, I-- I think the immediacy went away after that [missed].

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you didn't at the time necessarily know if it was cause your attorney couldn't be gotten a hold of or whether they couldn't figure out the system to make it happen?

Pfc. Manning

Correct. I'm not privy to that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Sure. On 13 December 2010, so a few days, almost a week before the Vice President Biden chit, you asked for 'request gift books from family and friends for online purchases do not know what the contents of the books are'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So is that again the shot gun approach [missed] you don't know even what they are, but you just want them?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. And, that was denied, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

I'm sorry, what?

Pfc. Manning

And, that was denied, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, and then how-- how about-- how did-- explain to the Court how it is you would know to even submit these chits for these types of requests.

Pfc. Manning

The process is outlined in there-- in the facility's 'Rules and Regulation for'-- that they issue to an inmate, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, I assume that no need to even [missed a few words ask? the? Marines?], you would find out from your family and friends that you were-- .they were intending to send you something?

Pfc. Manning

Sometimes in [conferences?], sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And-- and then you would then ask to get the ones that arrived [missed word]?

Pfc. Manning

Sometimes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then the Brig would have to react based off your request? Answer your requests?

Pfc. Manning

Of course. I mean [missed statement].

Prosecution (Fein)

So, on the 13 of December it was denied, but you were also told that it was denied that you needed some specificity, so they could put it through that process that you just spoke of?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

As you [missed] back in time, so the 21st of November 2010--

Pfc. Manning

--[missed phrase]

Prosecution (Fein)

--you asked to make an addition to your mailing and visitation list? This was for Glenn Greenwald, a friend from New York City?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. That is true.

Prosecution (Fein)

And so the mail and visitation list, this was a list of who could visit, who you authorized to visit and who you authorized to send you mail - anyone could send you mail - but, who you authorized to send you mail that you would receive?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct. That is [true?].

Prosecution (Fein)

Were you authorized or based off this request, were you allowed to add Mr. Glenn Greenwald to the list?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

On the 15th - again six days before - 15th of November 2010, you were requested receipt of periodical, monthly periodical, 'Scientific America'?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you even gave the ordered date? Did you receive authorization to get that periodical?

Pfc. Manning

Definitely. Yes, sir. [Missed last few words].

Prosecution (Fein)

Actually, you were very consistent. Six days, again before 9 November 2010, you requested a discussion regarding recording or monitoring of privileged communication and command conduct?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Will you please explain that?

Judge Lind

What was the date on that?

Prosecution (Fein)

I'm sorry, your Honor. 9 November 2010.

Pfc. Manning

It was-- I mean I don't-- I don't recall exactly what precipitated that, sir. But, I did generally have a concern about what was-- what was and what was not being recorded, whenever I was talking to the command and who was-- and-- and their-- the listening capability of using the phone that was in the backroom for the attorney phone calls.

Prosecution (Fein)

Can you-- can you please explain - kind of back up a little bit--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--I don't think yesterday you explained this-- just adding more detail for the Court.

Did you say backroom phone, explain, so--- I guess first question is: where did you typically speak to your attorneys for privileged communications?

Pfc. Manning

Privileged communications-- we'd-- normally took place, whenever they were telephonic, there was a telephone, a-- I'm guessing that a DSF phone or for that-- in special quarters it was, what use to be-- I mean they still have-- they still had the 'Chief's Office' sign on it.

I remember it was just a-- it was just sort of a storage area in which that telephone was there. There was a chair and a table.

And, they allowed or they had inmates, including myself, sit there and make-- we would hold the telephone up to the ear and talk to our counsel. The guard would put in the telephone number, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So they would put the telephone number in, and then you are in a closed office with privacy to talk to your...?

Pfc. Manning

Not always closed. No, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, so you were concerned that it wasn't closed?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. Sometimes the guards would sit in the room with me.

Prosecution (Fein)

During your conversations with your attorneys?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you were concerned about that and you told the Brig?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

And, I had the same concern regarding-- because, I had been told that or I had been notified that my visitations were being monitored and that I was filling out forms for visitors, and I was concerned--

I was confused about-- I was confused about whether or not that was the same for command, so between Captain Casamatta or First Sergeant Williams, whenever they came, whether they-- that fell under the same sort of service agreement with the Marines Corps.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, they weren't recorded, were they?

Pfc. Manning

I believe I was told that they were, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Did you sign forms every time?

Pfc. Manning

I did not--

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

--but the sign was still there, and so-- the Brig staff would advise me that all of my communications, except for-- except for clergy and attorney phone calls would be recorded, and then everything else could just be, you know, monitored by the guards, but not really recorded [missed last two words].

Prosecution (Fein)

So, you just wanted clarification of that, and then after that point you did not-- or before you never signed the consent to monitoring when you met with Captain Casamatta, Lieutenant [Barnard?], or First Sergeant Williams.

Pfc. Manning

I did not. I did not. I was told that-- that I did not need to [missed, but essentially did not sign a consent form because they were in the military, so they did not need to give consent for monitoring or recording]. They were not civilians.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And then the last part of that. That was when you had the confidential communications-- well, when you have your communications with defense counsel you would go to the other office.

What about telephone calls that were recorded or from your cell, how did that work?

Pfc. Manning

There was a-- and then there was a-- it was a phone that was on a cart, so it had wheels and a long wire which would go into the observation booth, and there was a-- you would pick up the phone and then there was-- it was a-- it would request for your pin number and a lot of other things.

I don't remember exactly how it work. There is a very similar system at the JRCF.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, because you were in MAX and POI status they would literally wheel a phone over to your-- to the front of your cell?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--[missed].

Pfc. Manning

If-- If I had requested it.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Now-- thank you. Going now to the next chit in the line on a-- I think it is 4 November 2010. You had a request for including pay [missed word], including getting copies of your leave and earning statements?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. I wasn't sure where to direct those.

Prosecution (Fein)

Sure--

Pfc. Manning

--at the time, but eventually directed to-- to go through command for that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, they answered that chit as well?

Pfc. Manning

I don't believe that the facility had to, because-- it was not their responsibility.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Your command fixed that for you?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then on 7 August 2010, you requested 'disposition and accessibility of attorney delivered further for Major Hurley'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, can you explain what happened there?

Pfc. Manning

I had a-- I had a packet of documents that Major Hurley wanted to be received-- or that asked for-- for me to see-- or asked me to keep and go through, and those were confiscated and I never-- I still don't know what happened to this day with those documents.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, you didn't-- so they never answered the chit or they could not find [missed word] what you were talking about?

Pfc. Manning

They told me that I was not allowed to have it, sir. And, that was-- it was being reviewed or something like that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Right. So, they answered it, but just not with an answer necessarily that-- that you-- you wanted or hoped to get?

Pfc. Manning

No. It wasn't an answer that I really understood.

So, I believe I received that answer from the Army liaison as opposed to Gunnery Sergeant Blenis-- or I think it was Staff Sergeant Jordan.

Prosecution (Fein)

It was the Army liaison, the Army rep at the facility?

Pfc. Manning

And, he was also a counselor, not necessarily my counselor, but a counselor, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Your Honor, the United States would like marked the-- these chits that we just went through.

Judge Lind

[Missed phrase]. Can I see them please?

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, Ma'am--

Judge Lind

Are you using them both?

Prosecution (Fein)

[to judge] No. No, your Honor. But, we would like them marked as 426(a).

So, if we do any other enclosures or a [missed a few words]. [to witness] Private First class Manning, so it's been almost an hour, do you need a comfort break?

Pfc. Manning

No. I'm good, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, few times-- right now command visits. Yesterday, you testified that you really liked your company commander, Captain Casamatta and First Sergeant [missed word] Williams.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, he's the best.

Prosecution (Fein)

First Sergeant Williams or Casamatta?

Pfc. Manning

Both of them, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

And-- and-- and then Lieutenant [Barnard? and Captain [Barn?] [missed word].

Prosecution (Fein)

And Captain [Barnard?] and First Sergeant Williams are your current company commander and First Sergeant?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

They are the ones who visited within 48 hours of your arriving at Quantico?

Pfc. Manning

Within 24 hours, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Within 24 hours. You also met your Battalion commander, I think, at that time, Lt. Col. Leiker?

Pfc. Manning

I met somebody from Operations, I believe it was the Operations Chief. It was an S3 like position.

I don't recall if it was somebody, who came in to represent the Battalion commander. And, then I actually met the Battalion commander within-- within a few days of arriving, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, you arrive and your Army chain of command showed up to explain your new command structure and made sure that you understood that you aren't just being left in a sea of Marines?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, they visited you, you said, earlier this morning on average every other week about?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Yesterday you gave an example of how you asked for a new tennis shoes or athletic shoes and they somehow even obtained your original ones from Fort Drum?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

While you visited with them, you had discussions with them, and then they always asked a series of questions?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

In fact, you became so good at answering questions that you would sometimes give them the answers, because you knew which questions were coming up next?

Pfc. Manning

If-- if the forms were the same, yes, sir. Because, they did change at some point the form, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, could you explain the form you are talking about to the Court?

Pfc. Manning

They would-- the company or I don't-- I don't-- I don't know what level, but the company was using a form for checking up on me, to make sure they ask the same questions for the command visit every single time as well as giving me the opportunity to-- to speak about any issues that might not necessarily be on the form.

So, there is a exhaustive list of about I think [130?] or something questions are on it.

Prosecution (Fein)

Your Honor, for your reference this is enclosure 26 to appellate exhibit 259, and, appellate exhibit 259 is the Government response to Article 13.

[to witness]

Private First Class Manning, what I would like to do is run through this form real quick. Just the generic example, not talking about any specific [missed]--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--[missed a few words] and then ask you a few questions about these questions. So, the form-- well, first there's one-- this-- this form was a two pages long?

Pfc. Manning

Double-sided maybe. I-- I think [missed word] more than two pages if it is not double-sided, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, sometimes you answered the questions by writing, and other times they asked you and they wrote it down?

Pfc. Manning

I-- I usually it was almost always verbal. They did it-- although one officer required an initial or something like that, but I don't recall when that was.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. But at the end of it, after you all had your discussion, and you went through the question on the form, then you would sign the form?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And date it?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir. Except for one occasion, when First Sergeant Williams did not have physical access to me. He-- I don't know what happened on that form, but I did not sign that form, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, I think there was actually I think a few occasions where-- where there wasn't a form used and it was just written out on a piece of paper?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. Sometimes they would forget the form. But, we would still go through as many questions as we can to represent [missed word] their efforts.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, the first question, 'Do you have any medical conditions?' you have to answer 'yes' or 'no'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then it's [missed word] 'Have you requested care at all for those medical conditions? Did you obtain,' said, 'Yes or no?'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then it's so 'Was the medical response timely?' 'Yes or no?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Next major question, 'Do you have any dental needs?' So medical then dental? Dental needs, you answer 'Yes or no?' 'If so, have you requested care?'

Pfc. Manning

I don't believe that-- I believe that was added later. I [missed a few words] question. I don't believe that-- because I requested for medical, but I requested for dental, cause I-- at some point there wasn't-- that they didn't have-- they didn't ask that particular question.

Prosecution (Fein)

[Missed. Perhaps, 'One moment' but not certain]. Before we keep going, just frame of reference, do you remember receiving any of these form before 19 August, cause the first form I have is 19 August 2010?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

It was-- it was-- early August so the-- so it would have been the 3rd of August for the very first time, I believe, sir. I'm guessing-- I'm guessing-- I'm just guessing--

Prosecution (Fein)

Sure--

Pfc. Manning

--I'm not gonna [missed a few word], but within first ten days that I was there.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, so. And, then they-- the command used at this point, you said earlier, some variant of this form through even when they visit today, and at Fort Leavenworth or a local facility that you might be housed at?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Your Honor, for purpose, you could probably can see that right now, the form.

There are no, at least here, forms before 19 August.

[to witness]

Okay, so after dental needs the next [missed] question is, 'Have you been visited by your unit?' which also might seem odd, since they are asking you, and they are the unit?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I mean that form was for-- it wasn't necessarily just specifically for me, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, it says 'Have you been visited by your unit? Yes or no?' and then it even asks, 'Who had visited you in the past?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, then 'When was that last visit?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. [Missed small bit]. United States Army Garrison as well, sir. I believe. It's always the same or continuous for-- for me.

But, for other soldiers in confinement that have some other things that there...there broad [width?] questions and there broad [width?] answers. [Missed last statement], sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. I think even one time you had someone do it who was not the XO [Executive Officer] Commander or First Sergeant. I think Chief [Wigman?]?

Pfc. Manning

I-- something alone those lines, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Then next major question, 'Had you been visited by a chaplain?' like we talked about earlier?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you answer, 'Yes or no?'

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Who visited you? When was the last time they visited?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, well, other next major question, 'Are you putting your uniforms and other clothing out for cleaning?' So, they are making sure that you are at least getting your uniforms cleaned?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then a series of questions about when that happened or when you would get them back?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Then the next question-- major question, is about getting-- having showers? 'Are you allowed to shower?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, with that, 'You have soap, shaving gear, and a towel?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And sometimes the answers were, 'No,' and you asked them for help with that?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Next major question, 'Are you being offered recreation time each day?' And then--

Pfc. Manning

--'any issues with that?'

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And, then 'How long?' They would ask how long you do rec call for?

Pfc. Manning

And how often, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Next question, 'Do you have telephone access?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, then, 'Have you made any calls?'

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, 'How many calls have you made?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, these aren't just 'Yes or no?' questions, some of them elicited actual responses?

Pfc. Manning

[Missed answer but affirmative].

Prosecution (Fein)

And then questions making sure you had adequate access to your defense attorney? Do you have telephone-- so, specifically 'Do you have telephonic access to your defense attorney?'

Pfc. Manning

Certainly. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

'Has your defense attorney visited you here?' So, they are asking about physical visitation?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And they had, 'Have you visited your defense attorney?' as well? Why-- why-- what is the difference there?

Pfc. Manning

Well, just in case I have to go someplace, to a TDS [Trial Defense Service] office that might normally be on post, or something like that. But, again the form is designed for more broad [missed word], not necessarily just me, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, did you ever visit with your defense counsel outside of Quantico Brig, while you were confined there?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. We met at a few times at Fort Meyer.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, your chain of command would go sign you out of Quantico and bring you to Fort Meyer, Virginia?

Pfc. Manning

Military District of Washington would sometimes.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

I don't have-- it was the Army. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, someone in the Army, like on behalf of the commander would show up and then bring you to the TDS office?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

What about-- since we already talked about it-- what about medical appointments and dental appointments? How did those...explain to the Court how those worked, please?

Pfc. Manning

Medical and dental appointments from-- as far as the Brig and the [missed word] at Quantico base were concerned, were not their issue.

They considered those to be the unit's responsibility, and so accordingly I would make those requests to my command-- my Army command.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, when you made that request, they would then-- the Army command would show up and-- and take you to those appointments?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But the Brig did have a corpsmen, a medic on staff, that would visit?

Pfc. Manning

Not the Brig. The Quantico base-- the Quantico base sort of had an Officer Candidate School that was nearby, in which the corpsmen would travel over occasionally, if there was an emergency or something-- like an issue.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Okay. Now looking at what is typically page two, then the next major question is, 'Do you have access to the Brig library?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

'Yes or no?' questions, 'If yes, are you reading material offered to you at your cell?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Then, the next one now starts talking about chow. So, 'Are you being fed everyday?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Next question and then, '[Missed]...'

Pfc. Manning

--'Hot meals?'

Prosecution (Fein)

--'[missed]?' Wait, I'm sorry, 'How many?'...

Pfc. Manning

--'How many meals?'

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, 'How many meals?'

Pfc. Manning

'Whether they are hot ones?'

Prosecution (Fein)

And, that's the next question. 'Whether they are hot?' So, you even remember today, these questions?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

The next big question, almost like the case here, 'Have you had any visitors other than the chain of command?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, they were concerned whether you were getting visitors?

Pfc. Manning

Are, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

They are concerned with visits, still today.

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Thank you. And then they would ask, 'So, who?' and you would tell them.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, then they would ask when was the last visit?

Pfc. Manning

Sir, yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, if there was any issues surrounding their visit?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

The next major question is, 'If the inmate is on suicide watch or injury prevention?' and then the first question cause that is the topic, 'How long have you been on suicide watch or injury prevention?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

The next question is, 'Do you understand why you are on suicide watch or prevention-- injury prevention?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

'When was the last time you saw a doctor, therapist, or counselor?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Pfc. Manning

'If so what was the visit--' or 'Was that visit on post or at the Brig?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Next major question, 'Are you getting any prescription medications that you need?'--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

'Yes of no?' 'Did you get them in doses prescribed?' That was the next question?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, 'Did you get the medication on time?' To make sure you are actually getting what you are suppose to get what you are suppose to get from the Brig?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And that is a 'Yes or no?' question?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

The next question is-- or still is today-- was and, 'Since my or the command's last visit, how have you been treated by the guards?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then the question following that, 'Since my or the command's last visit, how have you been treated by the facility?'

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

The next question, 'Do you understand the inmate grievance process or [missed word] procedure?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, some specific questions about that every single time? So, I assume once you answered the first time, a lot of these were the same?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir. Sometimes-- sometimes they would not be asked [missed two words].

Prosecution (Fein)

These-- this portion?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, they would-- if they-- I mean like-- my command would eventually start to just skip questions that-- if they were not necessary, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, when you say that, I assume you mean like 'Did you receive an inmate [missed word]?'

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir. We would go-- skip over that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Because, once you said 'Yes,' probably in August of 2010, you didn't need to say it again [missed last bit].

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, the very last question is, 'Do you have any needs that we the command can take care of?'

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, then bottom left, you would print, sign, date? And, then the visitor on the bottom right would print, sign, date?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then also, there was a-- was a-- was it a DoD or [DA?] form? There was the consignment facility form. I don't know what type of form that the command rep had to sign, if there was any issues to get to the Brig, and then you would sign too?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. Normally that was a-- there is a [missed a few words] form. I would sign it, but it would be the representative that would fill it out in terms of the written part. I was in restraints, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And this was done in a visitation booth area?

Pfc. Manning

A non-contact booth, yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, now, what I would like to do is...is just go through some of these, and just ask you some very specific questions.

So, as far your 19 August 2010-- the first documented command visit we have, when you were asked about, 'How have you been treated by the guards?' Your answer was, 'Very professional'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then about the facility, 'Very professional'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, 'Have we taken care of all your needs?' You of course wrote, 'Not sure, yet' or said, 'You're not sure yet'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

That's because it was the first visit, and they didn't have an opportunity to take care of any needs?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir. I was not-- I'm not-- I don't recall the reason why. They-- if it was-- if it was obvious.

I think that there were-- there were various issues in terms of moving, logistics-- the logistics involved in-- where certain items were, including my shoes, and things like that, and paperwork, being transferred [missed a few words] from Fort Drum, and-- and my LES [Leave and Earning Statement] and things like that [missed word].

A lot of just basic soldier issues, dealing with a permanent change of station [missed a few words].

Prosecution (Fein)

Now, looking at the next document 26 August 2010 they visited you, then asked about 'Do you have telephone access?' 'Yes,' 'for attorney?' 'How many calls have you made?' You actually said, 'zero,' at that point. And then, you were asked about treatment by the guards. You wrote or you said, 'Very professionally'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

'By the facility?' 'Very professionally' and you wrote, 'No issues'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. The person asking the questions wrote that portion.

Prosecution (Fein)

Thank you. Lt. [Barnard?]. And then, 'Is there anything we could take care of?' You actually [missed a few words] you wrote, 'Disposition of no [missed word] needs'

Pfc. Manning

[Missed].

Prosecution (Fein)

This is the tennis shoes, more that likely?

Pfc. Manning

More broadly, it was-- I have a lot-- I had a lot of stuff, I know or recall whether it was in Government storage or whatever.

I had friends that had stuff. I had a lot of CIF, so Central Issue Facility, for like equipment that was all over the place, so I wanted to make sure that it was all accounted for and that I wouldn't have to end up paying for it, you know-- you know-- plate gear and armor or plate carriers and things like that.

So, that way I knew where it was and that the Army knew where it was, so [missed a few words]. So, I wouldn't have to have that docked-- docked from my pay, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Sure. And, they took care of that for you?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, now going to the next documented check list in 10 September 2010, when asked about the guards, still 'Professional'?

Pfc. Manning

Very professional, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And the facility is still, 'professional'?

Pfc. Manning

Very professional, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

'Do you have any needs that could be taken care of?' You say, 'No'?

Pfc. Manning

They-- they wrote down that.

Prosecution (Fein)

They wrote down that?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. And I signed the document.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, did have [missed word] needs, or?

Pfc. Manning

[Missed a few words]-- there was a decision made either by [missed a few words]. You know, I am not privy to how the command thinks through that--

Prosecution (Fein)

Sure.

Pfc. Manning

--I am not going to question Captain [Barnard?], Captain Casamatta, or First Sergeant William, but they would-- they would make a decision as to whether-- I would always vocally, you know, explain something, but sometimes they would-- I mean they would write down, 'No issues,' and-- as opposed to, you know-- but that didn't necessarily mean that I didn't bring anything up, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, I guess on 10 September, are you saying, you did bring something up or that there were no issues?

Pfc. Manning

On 10 September?

Prosecution (Fein)

On 10 September--

Pfc. Manning

I don't recall, but there were often times where I would vocally-- and sometimes it would just be dealt with at that level, and it didn't-- like no issues would be for-- like if it was an issue that needed to be dealt with and that needed to be written down, and couldn't be dealt with right there verbally-- then-- then it would be written down.

But, normally-- normally if there was an issue that-- like dental and [missed word] transported, belongings and things like that-- to remind, you know, First Sergeant Williams or Captain Casamatta, they would write it down, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, so they could-- whatever command rep showed up-- your-- the First Sergeant, XO, First Sergeant, Company Command official-- if they could [missed a few words] right there with you, then it was like, 'Okay. Write it down'--

Pfc. Manning

--right. If they could remember it then they would just usually put down, 'No issues.'

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. On 17 September, I just realized that we just talked about 10 September, so one week later 17 September-- again asked about the guards and the facility, this time it was, 'Professionally' the way that they were treating you?

Pfc. Manning

Very professionally.

Prosecution (Fein)

'Do you have any issues or needs?' Excuse me, not 'issues.' I know I said that before, 'needs that need to be taken care of?' Answer was, 'No'?

Pfc. Manning

That was-- that's what is on there. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Now three days later, they came back on 23 September-- I am assuming this date is correct, and again your answer about the guards and the facility is, 'Professional'--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--the way that you think that you are being treated?

Pfc. Manning

I would hope it would say, 'Very professional.'

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, so this time, they wrote just, 'Professional'?

Pfc. Manning

Right. They stopped putting the 'very' in the sentence, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

And, then again, 'Do you have any needs we need to be taken care of?' "No.' And, then you signed the bottom left?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

On 30 September, through this I just notice one difference here, 'Are you being offered recreation time?' You say...'Yes or no?' isn't checked, but what is hand written is, 'if it is not raining, 20 minutes'?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And now going back, on 30 September, to the guards and the facility this time it says, 'Excellent,' and then, 'Very professional'? So, guards were 'Excellent'? And then the facility, 'Very professional'?

Pfc. Manning

I don't recall, but-- I mean, that is why I usually say-- I'm usually, you know-- just say either-- I would start-- started to vocally give a rating.

So, in terms of whether it was excellent performance or, you know-- and then 'very'-- the facility, 'very professionally.'

I mean-- so, that's what-- how I vocally did it. You know, just-- just repeated the same thing most of the time, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And-- and-- and, I have mentioned this before, but 'Do you understand the grievance procedures?' 'Yes'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

7 October 2010. Same questions. 'Treated by the guards?' This time it actually says, 'Fine.' 'Treated by facility?' Same, 'Fine.' So, is this part of the grading process--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--at this point?

Pfc. Manning

I mean, that's-- that's how I sort of saw it was, you know, fine, excellent. I mean-- I just used-- I mean, I used a buzz word.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

And vocally to [missed word]. I mean I'm not the one-- again, I'm not the one-- I'm not the one that is writing these--

Prosecution (Fein)

--sure.

Pfc. Manning

--these answers down. But, I would sign the document again, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And then here, 'Do you have any needs we can take care of?' "No.' And then actually this-- this-- this week, they wrote, 'Not at this time'? At least, was said in the documenting?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

15 October 2010. This one appeared to be a little different. 'Are you getting rec call?' The answer is, 'Yes.' 'How long each day?' Again, you say, '20 minutes'...

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--at this point. 'How are you being treated by the guards?' 'Very professional.' 'How are you being treated by the facility?' 'Very professionally.' So, at least this portion appear to be the same...

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--[missed last part of his statement question]. Now on 21 October 2010, you were asked about the guards. 'Professional.' You're asked about the treating facility and how they're treating you. 'Professionally'--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--'Any needs to take care of?' 'No.' [Missed a few words], on 27 October 2010, you were asked, 'Have you been visited by a chaplain?' You answered, 'Yes.' And, then you said, 'Who visited you?' and it was 'Chaplain Rosenball [sp.]. Is that what you [missed word] before?

Pfc. Manning

It might be the right name. I am not sure.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

--I was not sure, and I stated that, whenever. I wasn't sure how to pronounce it. I wasn't sure if it was the correct name. I wasn't even sure if it was the correct rank. Cause I wasn't sure what branch of service.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Well, it would sort of-- it makes sense. Chaplain could be any branch or any rank.

Pfc. Manning

Okay, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

'When's your last attorney visit?' 'Two weeks ago.' So, this one actually is slightly different, because it says, 'Since my visit-- since my last visit, how have you been treated by the guards?' This time, 'Excellent. Very professional.' And then, about the facility, 'Excellent. Very professional,' as well.

Pfc. Manning

Yes. I-- I previously stated the same thing for that part.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

So, me vocally-- me verbally it would be the same every time, but they would write it down differently.

Prosecution (Fein)

Oh. Okay. [Missed a few words, I think, 'I get it,' but not certain]. 10 November, is that your recollection, the same?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--about the guards? Whether you had needs to be taken care of? [Long pause] 'Do you have telephone access?' Here's a difference. You remember saying, 'No,' because the phone was down that week?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

'Guards, facility?' Essentially the same answers, 'Alright' 'No issues.' Actually that is a little different, because on 17-- or, excuse me, 18 November when asked, 'How have you been treated by the guards?' This time, at least what they wrote down was, 'Alright. No issues.' So, not just the 'Professional.' "Very professional.' 'Fine.' This one is 'Alright. No issues.'

Pfc. Manning

Correct. That was what was written down, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

That is what you said, or that what was written down?

Pfc. Manning

Probably what I said. I switched from 'excellent' to 'okay', 'alright'.

Judge Lind

Major Fein, can I talk to you for a second.

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

I am a little confused. I followed the Court's copy of what was as the attachment, and I end at-- with these notes at 15 October. Should there be more of them?

Prosecution (Fein)

I think that might have been a printing issue, your Honor. But, we have copies right here. We'll just [get?] a fresh copy for you. If that will--?

Judge Lind

Can you send someone out to make one, so I can just go along with you when you are asking your questions?

Prosecution (Fein)

I'm sorry, could you say that--?

Judge Lind

Could you send someone out to make a copy of these?

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, I have [one?] here.

Judge Lind

Thank you.

Prosecution (Fein)

I [will?] also have them marked as well. Ma'am this has been marked as appellate exhibit 426(b).

Judge Lind

Thank you.

Prosecution (Fein)

Ma'am 18 November 2010, bottom right of the page would say 700-- page 755 of 1,505.

[to witness]

Private First Class Manning, on 18 November 2010, we left off with, you had said already, 'No issues,' about the treatment by the guards or [missed a few words]?

Pfc. Manning

Towards the middle of autumn, I think-- I think I changed my statement back then to something along the lines [missed a few words] they were 'average', 'alright', sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then actually this one, you did have something that they could take care of-- and 'One [missed word] set of sweats, small'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

What do you mean by that?

Pfc. Manning

I did-- I did not have-- it was getting cold in there. And, I did not have-- although, most of the-- most of the detainees at that facility from what I understand, had been-- they were issued sweats.

The Marine Corps still had sweats. But, [missed full statement.]. So, I did not have sweats to stay warm. [Missed word], the facility [missed statement].

Prosecution (Fein)

So what did the command do, based off that request?

Pfc. Manning

They went out and got at Target, sweats.

Prosecution (Fein)

Ah, okay. Cause the Army doesn't have sweats, anymore [missed last word].

Pfc. Manning

Right.

Prosecution (Fein)

Did you receive those sweats?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. They were dark grey generic sweats.

Prosecution (Fein)

Now the next date on 28, excuse me, 26 November 2010, First Sergeant Williams visited you? To the best of your knowledge, this was the-- is this the first date that he forgot the checklist?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

It's not or is?

Pfc. Manning

It's not.

Prosecution (Fein)

When do you remember him, not having the check list before?

Pfc. Manning

It was-- it was-- First Sergeant Williams actually was-- would frequently forget it.

So, it was not-- it was not uncommon for him to not-- and sometimes he would not write anything down.

He would just come of see me, and ask the questions, and not necessarily put it in to a document, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, sometimes he would-- so sometimes he would have the document.

Sometimes he didn't have the document, but would write stuff down, and as you are saying, sometimes he wouldn't write anything down, and you would have a conversation with him?

Pfc. Manning

First Sergeant-- First Sergeant Williams. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So on this date of 26 November 2010, when asked about how you were getting treated? 'Professional'?

Pfc. Manning

We had these questions memorized all the time, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. We or you?

Pfc. Manning

We.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, so he did to?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, still probably today?

Pfc. Manning

Absolutely.

Prosecution (Fein)

10 December 2010, this time it sounds the same. 'How have you been treated by the guards?' 'Excellent.' 'Since your last visit...since the command's last visit, how is the facility treating you?' 'Excellent.' And you signed this document as well?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And actually here, 'Do you have any needs to be taken care of?' You wrote, 'Need underwear and T-shirts'?

Pfc. Manning

I don't know if I wrote that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, but at least stated, you needed underwear and T-shirts?

Pfc. Manning

I did need more underwear and T-shirts. I had-- the one's I had were from my deployment, as so they stilled smelled-- they still smelled like Iraq.

Prosecution (Fein)

[laughs] So, you need new ones?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, they were able to obtain those for you?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Now--

Pfc. Manning

No matter how many times it got washed, it [missed], sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. On 14 December 2010, there is a change here. 'Are you being offered rec time?' You say your answer was, 'Yes.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But then, here is says, 'How long each day?' But here you stated, 'One hour a day.'

Pfc. Manning

I had notified them of the change, the increase that Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart had made.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, at this point, he had increased the rec time, and then--

Pfc. Manning

--and, notified me of that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

When asked about how treated by the guards, this time, at least they wrote down, 'Good. Excellent.' And then, somebody put , 'Excellent,' do you remember?

Pfc. Manning

Again, it goes back to [missed two words], sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, are there any needs to be taken care of, your answer was, 'No'. 23 December--

Pfc. Manning

Not-- not-- not necessarily, sir. I mean I would-- I would vocalize concerns, but they might be dealt with vocally, as opposed to having to be written down, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Thank you. What you said a couple minutes ago?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. I mean-- I'm just setting on the record.

Prosecution (Fein)

Good. On 23 December, so this is two days before Christmas, they showed up to visit you?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

23 December 2010, when asked about you were being treated by the guards, this time at least it was written down, 'Fine.' 'Treated by the facility?' "Fine.' Do you remember that?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, 'Do you have any needs to be taken care of this time?' Now this-- this month if you remember there was no, 'Yes or no?' but it was written in there, 'Not at this time.'

Pfc. Manning

I would always-- almost every single time, because if I didn't have anything, I would-- I would usually state, 'Well, not at this time,' just to be careful, because-- I mean there might not be issues today at this moment. But, I might have issues in a week, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And you signed and dated that one. Now, 30 December 2010, so they came, I guess, one week later-- again asked, 'Treated by the guards?' 'Excellent.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

'Treated by the facility?' 'Excellent.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

'Any needs to be taken care of?' This time just, 'No,' signed, dated. Next date, on 6 January 2011, 'How have you been treated by the guards?' 'Excellent.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

'Treated by the facility?' Oddly here, 'Treated by the facility?' at least what was written down was, 'No issues,' for, 'How are you being treated by the facility?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. That's what is says. What was the date on that, sir?

Prosecution (Fein)

6 January 2011.

Pfc. Manning

That was whenever I started raising the 5-10 issue or I had verbally-- vocally to Captain-- was it Captain Casamatta?

Prosecution (Fein)

It was.

Pfc. Manning

--and I vocally explained that, but he didn't write it. He didn't put it down, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

I was-- I told him, that I was going to submit a 5-10 the next day.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. On 14 January 2011, the one where you were initialing items around, you were asked-- or again, on 14 January 2011, you were asked, 'How were you being treated by the guards?' 'Excellent.' 'Treated by the facility?' again 'Excellent.' At this point, 'Do you understand the grievance procedure?' You-- like every month, you answered, "Yes.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. Now, what is the date on this one, sir?

Prosecution (Fein)

14 January 2011.

Pfc. Manning

Okay, so that-- is that the--

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, this one--

Pfc. Manning

I think-- I think that they might be wrong on that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, it's interesting that you say that, and would you like a copy to look at?

Pfc. Manning

I-- if you don't mind.

Prosecution (Fein)

I don't. [Missed a few words] hand the witness, what had been marked as appellate exhibit 426(d). It's the whole packet. [Missed a few words] dated November the bottom packet. Page 771 of 1,505. Starts at page [missed].

Pfc. Manning

771 of 1,505?

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes.

Pfc. Manning

And that's where it starts?

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes. So, it's the next two pages.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, on the top left, you initialed a change in the date?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I did not. The-- Captain Casamatta-- no, First Sergeant Williams did.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Got it. Cause that's a 'BW', not--

Pfc. Manning

I remember that-- I remember that-- I remember that there was a-- that we weren't sure what day it was. Neither of us were, and we asked the Brig staff. They weren't sure either, so.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, it wasn't 14 January?

Pfc. Manning

We never got an answer.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, well it was initialed by First Sergeant Williams.

Pfc. Manning

Well, I'm guessing-- my best guess is that it was-- that it-- that it was the 14th of--

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

He might have checked that out before he answered.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, it-- it definitely is changed from what was originally there, and then initialed after the change, correct?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir, because that-- those are not my initials for the change on the 14, yes--

Prosecution (Fein)

Cause it's not 'BEM' versus it says 'BW'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So if you look now on the next page, 772.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, just starting from the top down--

Pfc. Manning

And, again those are not my initials where the-- where is says--

Prosecution (Fein)

Sure.

Pfc. Manning

--where I put the date in-- that is not my initials.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, the initials on the top left and the bottom left of page 772 is the same initials that are the top left of 771?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Thank you. So, the middle of the page, the question, 'Since my last visit, how have you been treated by the guards?' Your answer was 'Excellent.' 'How have you been treated by the facility?' At least what was written was 'Alright'?

Pfc. Manning

I did not write that. First Sergeant Williams did.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And, 'Do you understand the grievance process?' The answer was, 'Yes.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But there is a difference here, and it says, 'Have you used it?' You say this time is 'Yes.' And, 'What for?' And, you told your First Sergeant, 'To figure out how to get off injury prevention.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then you stated-- or on here it says, 'Friday 7 Jan' on it?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. I-- I again notified the fact that I was putting a-- I was supplementing the fact that I had notified the previous-- the previous one that I had stated, 'I am putting a 5-10 through the facility-- to the facility commander,' and then I-- because I was worried that my 5-10's were not making it where they needed to go, because the fact they [missed word] them in late December.

So, I got the-- I made sure I was covered my bases on that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, but I guess what I am confused about Private First Class Manning is the December and the January documents-- and feel free to flip back about two or three...

Pfc. Manning

Certainly, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

When it is asked, 'Have you used the grievance procedure?' You always answer, 'No.'

Pfc. Manning

Well I-- sometimes we would skip over that [missed a few words], because we just didn't need to go over that question, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, but on this date, the answer is, 'Yes'? So, going back to 14, well what has been-- what First Sergeant Williams changed and initialed 14 January?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

This date, the answer is 'Yes,' you have used procedures? And, then--

Pfc. Manning

Yes and for that specific 5-10.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And, that is what you meant went you told him, and he wrote this down?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, thank you. And then you signed the bottom left?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Private First Class Manning, do you need a comfort break right now or we could go a few more minutes?

Pfc. Manning

Seven more minutes would be good.

Prosecution (Fein)

Seven more? [laughs] Seven more it will be.

Pfc. Manning

I think I can deal with that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. I'll try to get it within seven minutes. [laugh]   So on-- so the next date-- if you look in the packet it's page 774 or the appellate exhibit. This one dated in the bottom right where you-- is that [missed a few word] initials in the bottom right? The 'BEM'?

Pfc. Manning

For that, 771?

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes-- No. 774. Onto the next page. This is the handwritten document--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, those are.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, those are your initials 20 January 2011?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. I didn't put a slash through the zero, but--

Prosecution (Fein)

Got it. On the 20, you are talking about?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And if you look to the middle of the page, number 12, it says, 'How have you been treated by the guards?' This time you wrote, 'Decent.' For number 16, 'Any other needs?' You wrote, 'Nothing new,' this time. Now is the reason you wrote 'Nothing new,' is, because you still are trying to ask about 'Why and how it was implemented,' meaning POI?

Pfc. Manning

Well the 'Nothing new,' it goes from 16 then it goes to 17, that is to same one.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, 16 'Nothing new,' any other needs, 'Nothing new.' 17, 'Some grievance pending,' which is what is referencing, 'Nothing new,' that is what you talked about the week before?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then you starred here, 'Why and how it was implemented'?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, this is your handwriting on this document?

Pfc. Manning

For the 'Manning, ' just the name. I did not put the asterisks or the 'Why and how it was implemented.'

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, thank you. Now, going to 29 January 2011, feel free to flip if you need to. Going to the second page, when asked on 28 January 2011, 'Since my last visit, how have you been treated by the guards?' you wrote, 'Better,' or you stated, 'Better,' excuse me. You didn't write it.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. Because, there was a-- because there was an incident on the 18th involving-- involving two of the guards.

So, we went over that, and I explained that-- that it was better-- that the-- the-- that incident had occurred.

I had explained that in the previous week, or the previous one. I just explained that it was better, because of-- there were-- there were no incident between that time and this visit, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. No, but-- so, you just said that you spoke to them the week before, the previous week, now that was on 20 January, but when asked about 'How you were treated by the guards?' Is that why you just said, 'Decent'? Because you had the incident on the 18th?

Pfc. Manning

Right. It's a lower rating than, 'Excellent.'

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. It's a grading process?

Pfc. Manning

Right, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Also on 28 January, when asked, 'If your needs are being taken care of?' I guess you had a request of three pairs of socks and 'You had more when you got there, but you need more.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. My-- the number of socks I had, started to diminish--

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

--in the time frame. I don't know why, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And they were able to get you more socks?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

It's a little bit before seven minutes, but, your Honor, United States moves for a 15 minute recess.

Judge Lind

Alright, any objection?

Defense (Coombs)

No, your Honor.

Judge Lind

Alright, Court is in recess for twenty minutes [missed word].

ALL RISE

Judge Lind

Please be seated. This Article 39(a) Session is called to order.  Let the record reflect all parties present when the Court last recessed are again present in Court. Major Fein.

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes, Ma'am. Private First Class Manning, just remind you, you are still under oath.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Private First Class Manning, when we left off we were going through the weekly updates from the chain of command, I think we stopped at 4 February 2011?

Pfc. Manning

Do you know which page that was?

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes. Page-- on the bottom right corner page 779.

Pfc. Manning

779. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And this is appellate exhibit 426(b). So during this visit on 4 February 2011, when asked about how the guards-- how you were being treated by the guards, you answered, 'Very well,' or words to that effect?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, 'How you were treated by the facility?' 'Excellent,' or words to that effect?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

'Understood the grievance procedures?' You-- you acknowledged, 'Yes,' at this point to?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And had no real comments about whether you had any needs to be taken care of?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Thank you. Going to the-- the next week, 11 February 2011.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

The second page, when asked well at least here, when asked, 'Since the last visit, have you have been treated by the guards here?' was just, 'Yes,' not a, 'No,' and no real comment, at least, documented on this week, correct?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. There was an unusual-- we had a-- there was a different-- it says here Sergeant First Class Jones did this. So, it was done differently, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, the following week, 18 February 2011, I assume this was another week that First Sergeant Williams did not have the form with him?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And on this 18 February 2011, towards the bottom, with the question of, 'Do you have any visitation concerns?' written differently, the answer was, 'No'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

'Was there anything he could help you with?' You actually did ask for some help from your chain of command here. I think you wrote, 'Your head gear possible beret, size seven'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. I was being transferred using a pc [patrol cap], while everybody else was in berets. For movement, and that was just a minor issue.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, you needed to get an actual beret to start wearing?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. That was before the pc became the utility uniform--

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

--covered utility.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, and then what type of movement, cause I assume this is outside of the Brig?

Pfc. Manning

Correct. For attorney visits, and I think we had a 706 board.

Prosecution (Fein)

Around this time in February?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then you also asked for a dentist for the following-- following the last visit?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. I still had some work that needed to be done.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then why ask First Sergeant about checking on a magazine order that you did in your name?

Pfc. Manning

Because I started receiving magazine bills at Quantico Base Brig. It was-- they were concerned about the fact that I was getting bills, while I was in confinement. So, I brought to the attention of the command as well, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And what happened for that, when you brought that to their attention?

Pfc. Manning

Nothing really ever came up. It never affected my credit rating or anything. So, it got reported.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, thank you. So, 25 February 2011, the next visit.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

When asked how you were being treated by the guards, you said, 'Very professionally.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

'How's the facility treating you?' you said, 'Very professionally.' 'Any needs that can be taken care of?' 'No,' at least that is what is marked here, and you signed?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Thank you. On 2 March 2011...

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--similarly, 'Since your last visit, how have you been treated by the guards?' 'Alright,' this was how it was documented?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, 'About then facility?' This time, actually it was, 'Okay'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, 'Do you have any needs that could be taken care of?' 'No,' and at least this time documented by First Sergeant Williams and you, it says, 'Not at this time'?

Pfc. Manning

That's correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Private First Class Manning, on 11 March is the next visit that was documented. On here, when it talks about the rec time, 'How long each day?' 'One hour,' was written?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And also up top, about the chaplain visit. Now it says, 'First Lieutenant' I think 'Rosenfald' [sp.]..

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir--

Prosecution (Fein)

--was the chaplain?

Pfc. Manning

That is not correct. I recall now he is a [missed word]. He was an Navy Lieutenant, so.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, Navy Lieutenant, which is a Army--

Pfc. Manning

--Captain.

Prosecution (Fein)

--Captain. Thank you. And then at the same visit, 'How were you treated by the guards?' It was annotated, 'Very well.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And by the facility, 'Very well'?

Pfc. Manning

Correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, no needs to be taken care of yet?

Pfc. Manning

Correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

Exactly one week later, on 18 March 2011, when asked about the treatment of the guards, this time, 'Very professional,' and the facility, you said, 'Maybe overcautious'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And what did you mean by, 'Maybe over cautious'?

Pfc. Manning

This is-- is 18 March, so I was concerned because Chief Warrant Officer Two Barnes had placed me on what I considered some kind of suicide restriction, but without it being called a suicide restriction, so I discussed this with First Sergeant Williams.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. At that point did you ask him to-- to figure it out-- to help you with it?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, then, 'Do you have any needs to be taken care of?' The answer is, 'No'?

Pfc. Manning

'Do you have any other needs?' is the way he always asked the question verbally.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then the answer then, "any other needs?' was, 'No,' also?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Thank you. The next-- the next week was 23-- or the next visit and document 23 March 2011?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, 'How were you were treated by the guards?' "Very well,' was written down on the document?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, 'How were you treated by the facility?' Again slightly different, it says, 'Treated okay, but communication issues.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. I relayed the same information to Captain Casamatta that I did with First Sergeant Williams in the...I think it was two prior...it might have been one prior--

Prosecution (Fein)

And a--

Pfc. Manning

--[missed a few words] March.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, what did you mean by 'communication issues'?

Pfc. Manning

That is what he wrote down. I described the same thing as I did with First Sergeant Williams, and just described it, but to the Company Commander, not just the First Sergeant.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, so the term 'communication issues' was Captain Casamatta's...

Pfc. Manning

Right.

Prosecution (Fein)

--choice of words?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Did you agree with this, when you signed it?

Pfc. Manning

Well, yes. It's signed [missed word].

Prosecution (Fein)

And, 'Any other needs?' You said, 'Not right now'?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

The next visitation on 31 March 2011?

Pfc. Manning

[Made affirmative sound like 'mm-hmm'.] Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

'How were you treated by the guards?' now is, 'Alright.' This one says, 'Treated by the facility?' 'Okay.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, any needs to be taken care of, the box of 'No,' is checked?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Go to the next month...was there another one...another visitation that was documented after...that you're aware of after 31 March 2011?

Pfc. Manning

Another visitation?

Prosecution (Fein)

By your chain of command, correct.

Pfc. Manning

Yes. Yes, sir. There was.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, when was that?

Pfc. Manning

I don't know.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

I mean there were-- there were April visitations. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And when did you-- when did you leave Quantico?

Pfc. Manning

I left Quantico Base Brig on 20 April of 2011, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, these check lists continued once you went to the JRCF?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

I would like to look at very quickly the next one in the...in front of you, which is dated 28 July 2011?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, this form is-- is actually I think it's the exact same form, because even the top says Marine Corps Base Quantico?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. They fixed it at [missed a few words].

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Now-- got it. On page two, 'How have you ben treated by the guards?' 'Great. No issues,' is what was documented by Captain Casamatta?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. I upgraded to 'Great,' because it was really, really good, sir. It's above excellent.

Prosecution (Fein)

Makes sense. And, 'Treated by the facility?' 'Same as everyone else.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes. I was treated equally as other detainees or other inmates. So I felt that I was now being treated as normal, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And, you signed this one as well?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You honor, I am retrieving what has been marked as appellate exhibit 426 Bravo.

So, at least when you met with the chain of command, and your Army chain of command came to visit, and you had issues, they worked to resolve those issues for you?

Pfc. Manning

Absolutely. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You needed shoes. They [missed word] even your Fort Drum shoes.

Pfc. Manning

Yes. At the company-- at the company level in particular it was outstanding, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And if it required interaction with the Brig, your-- your request [missed word]-- they were able to interact with the Brig, and it was all no issues?

Pfc. Manning

I'm-- I don't know. I mean sometimes, yes; sometimes, no. I-- I wasn't privy to the conversations between the Army-- at the company level and the Brig at the Brigade level. I don't know. I don't know how those interactions went, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

That's fair. But, at least for the company commander at the company level or the First Sergeant, or one time Sergeant First Class Jones showing up, when you had issues that you shared with them, they at there level, would either resolve them if they could on the spot, as you talked about--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--or they would get back to you, based off what you asked them to do?

Pfc. Manning

Sometimes-- sometimes they would just forget what the issue was.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. But, none of those reports we just looked at reference prior-- well I think one report references prior issue, but then after they got resolved, then everything was still back to, sort of the norm?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, between the chits that you're filing with DD 5-10's with the Brig--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--and your request from assistance from your chain of command, when those were submitted either the Brig and your chain of command answered them?

Pfc. Manning

Normally, yes. For minor administrative things or, you know, clothing issues, the magazines, books, those issues they were normally-- that was-- if not-- if not rapidly, then within a decent amount of time to.

Prosecution (Fein)

But-- but in none of these requests, you never asked the chain of command, you never asked the chain of command to assist you in changing your POI status, or you did?

Pfc. Manning

I did, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You did. That never then-- never got resolved.

Pfc. Manning

Correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, then it was never documented each time, each week?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, because it-- whenever we got to the question-- because on every single one there is a question regarding the POI status-- the SR status-- normally if we were going through the questions, sometimes we would stop at that one, you know, 'Are you still on POI?'-- you know, 'Are you still working through your counsel et cetera?'

They would-- we would talk about, where that process was and everything else, so. That was-- that was the time, whenever we would normally discuss it, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, during those discussions you were never-- you never reached out to them and say, 'Listen, can y'all help with whatever it takes to get me off of this status?'

Pfc. Manning

I did do that, sir, yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

You did?

Pfc. Manning

I did do that, sir. Within-- I don't recall how early it was, but, you know, I did talk to Captain Casamatta frequently about it, because he was very concerned about the fact that I was on-- on a restrictive status.

Captain Casamatta in particular would always ask me about that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Ask you about it, but-- I guess where I'm-- but, I do understand-- and I am just trying to understand, and what most people wouldn't understand is-- he was concerned about-- y'all have discussions about POI status?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

I mean it is clear from the check list that 'prevention of injury' was actually written in on the right side--

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--and you'd have discussions about that?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, at what point were you reaching out to the chain of command that was visiting you each week to say, 'It needs to be changed. I am not suicidal'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. That's-- that's the gist of the discussion right there, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But it wasn't documented?

Pfc. Manning

Well, we checked-- I mean we checked in the box-- I mean, well we once a week-- they had-- there was a lot of other things going on, and we assumed-- we also assumed that our conversations were being recorded as well, so we thought, you know, check the box, you know and I thought--

I mean, I don't know how-- I don't know how Captain Casamatta and First Sergeant Williams documented the other-- the other stuff, but the form-- I mean, we just went through the form to make sure that all-- that all bases were covered every single time, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, but it wasn't a pencil [missed a few words]? And it's just-- I'm sorry. It wasn't that you sat down with Captain Casamatta or First Sergeant Williams, and simply just went through real quick and checked everything?

Pfc. Manning

Correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, you still went through the questions?

Pfc. Manning

Every single one, yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You had an opportunity to document whatever it is you needed to do, whatever you wanted to make sure was documented, and then you signed the form, but never reaching out and saying that--

Pfc. Manning

Well, it's a check list, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, it is except for there are certain areas, like at the bottom of what else-- what else do you needs from the chain of command, where it was written down all the time?

Pfc. Manning

Well, issues that-- issues that-- to remind Captain Casamatta or First Sergeant Williams, you know-- if there was something that was being brought up that we couldn't resolve on the spot, like-- like I said, or that we hadn't covered before, then-- then [missed a few words], sir. [Missed a statement].

Prosecution (Fein)

Are you aware that when-- when in the January time frame after you submitted the chit to the Brig, and you then you talked to Captain Casamatta, and Captain Casamatta then went to the Brig officials--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--after you requested it?

Pfc. Manning

Absolutely. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So he went to the Brig officials to say, 'Explain the POI issue to me'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, that happened in January 2011?

Pfc. Manning

Correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, it was documented on the form?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, you are saying today at least that, that also happened all before January 2011?

Pfc. Manning

I don't know. I did talk to Captain Casamatta-- again, I don't-- I'm not privy to, you know, communications of, you know, Captain Casamatta and the Brig, sir.

I assumed that whenever I bring it up-- I assumed that whenever I brought up the issue with Captain Casamatta, he was going to see what he could do.

I mean there wasn't a lot that he could do about it-- he doesn't work at the Brig, you know. He is not an officer there. So, he is only looking out for me from the unit's standpoint in that sense.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Thank you. Now I would like to direct your attention to something completely new.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

It's-- You mentioned it yesterday, it's these 'voluntary statements' that you were-- you were asked to fill, you didn't even fill out-- you didn't even fill out at times.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Remember what I am talking about?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. They were-- I-- I didn't know what to think of them at first, but I eventually figured-- I mean I figured that they were equivalent of the sworn statements, because of the way it was set up, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, before we get to talk about any particular, can you please explain for Colonel Lind what the voluntary statement's are?

Pfc. Manning

Well, they were documents that the Navy uses to-- to document a statement. So-- so it-- essentially a sworn statement, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, when were they used?

Pfc. Manning

When were they used? I don't know, but the Department of the Navy uses it for all kinds of stuff, and I mean that broadly. I don't-- I don't know specifically what it can or should be used for, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, you normally had them when there was an exception to like rec hall was cut short-- you chose to watch TV instead of going to rec hall. That is when you used them correct?

Pfc. Manning

That is whenever they-- whenever they said that I had to fill them out--

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

--that-- I did not. I was confused by that, and I was uncomfortable with those particular document, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. But in general, that was-- that was-- without talking about any specific document yet-- in general that when it came up, while you were confined at Quantico was when you made a choice, and they wanted you to fill out a document to reflect that choice?

Pfc. Manning

It seemed like it. It seemed like that. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, the-- the first one I would like to talk about is-- [as you go?] in chronological order--

Judge Lind

Where am I going to find these?

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes, your Honor.

Judge Lind

If they're already enclosures here in filings you can just tell me where it is?

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes, Ma'am. And, they might not be enclosures or we would have to search for them. So, this is easier than.

Judge Lind

Please, also Major Fein, if we are using any documents, that haven't been entered into the record as enclosures, please [missed a few words]...

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes, Ma'am. Your honor, the 'voluntary statements' are marked as appellate exhibit 426 Charlie.

I'm handing Private First Class Manning, 426 Charlie. [Missed a statement].

As you see, Private First Class Manning, this appellate exhibit there [missed a word] in reverse chronological order--

Pfc. Manning

Okay.

Prosecution (Fein)

--and we are going to start in chronological order. So, that in mind.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, the first-- the first one is recorded-- it was from 14 December 2010.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And this is where, you chose to forgo rec time because, because you left Quantico for the day and it was too close to dinner?

Pfc. Manning

Unfortunately, yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, so you chose-- so, instead you--

Pfc. Manning

Oh. No. No, on 14 December they did not have the ability to do rec call for me, so they told me to fill out a 'voluntary statement'.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, so-- so they didn't allow you to do rec call--

Pfc. Manning

They didn't have enough time to do it, no.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, so they didn't have enough time. They asked you to fill out this statement--

Pfc. Manning

They ordered me to, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

They ordered you to fill out the 'voluntary statement'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. Master Sergeant Papakie.

Prosecution (Fein)

On 14 December 2010?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Let's go to the-- the next one, please. Dated 20 December 2010?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And on this one, this is where-- where the statement says-- the statement here that you wrote says that you voluntarily changed you rec time and then this voluntary statement occurred?

Pfc. Manning

The one that I am looking at says, the 20th of December?

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes.

Pfc. Manning

So it's 43335 at the bates [missed word]?

Prosecution (Fein)

That is correct.

Pfc. Manning

Okay. Yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then on-- so let's go to the next one. On 21 December 2010?

Pfc. Manning

21 December?

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes. 21 December. So this would be on the bottom left, bates number 43328.

Pfc. Manning

I don't-- I don't recall the circumstances regarding this one , sir.

But I think it was-- I think it was-- I don't know if it was snowy or whatever, but I wasn't able to go to outdoor rec, so they told me to fill out this out.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, they-- they said, you will not do rec time and then you fill out the 'voluntary statement'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. That's how it worked, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Alright. So, next in line please. So, this will be dated 25 December 2010?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Actually, I'm sorry this one's dated 28 December, but on 25 December 2010, that was Christmas of 2010, you also chose to shorten your rec time that day, but refused to sign a voluntary statement.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir-- because it was getting-- it was getting unusual and I was uncomfortable, because it has this section at the bottom, which I started to cross out-- where it says, 'I have been sworn to this statement by blank.'

And, you know, they were ordering me to fill this out, and I wasn't comfortable with it-- wasn't sure what the legal status of this document was, and they were telling me to do something that I wasn't sure was acquired illegally, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, so on 25 December, you decided or you refused to sign a voluntary statement?

Pfc. Manning

On 25 December-- yes, because I-- again it was getting-- I was getting uncomfortable filling out these-- these forms.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you were allowed to not sign them, correct? But, you refused--

Pfc. Manning

They were not exactly happy about it--

Prosecution (Fein)

--the Brig said, 'Okay.'

Pfc. Manning

--I remember-- and I don't know who the DBS was at the time, but they-- they can't force me to sign the document.

They started-- I mean they were-- they were-- I mean, the way I was perceiving it was that it was an order.

'Here is a voluntary statement. Sign this.'

That was how it was initially going, and then-- and then I got uncomfortable and I-- and I started to wonder, 'well, is this proper?' sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So then now the next one in the packet that was signed-- 28 December 2010-- so its the bates number on the bottom left 43327.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, that one you did. You voluntarily chose to forgo rec time, because you wanted to watch a certain TV show?

Pfc. Manning

This is 3327? That is not what I am reading.

Prosecution (Fein)

3327?

Pfc. Manning

That is what I am looking at, 43327?

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes. On the 28th of December.

Pfc. Manning

No. It says, 'Television call being secured, due to medication call. Sleep medication being given at 20-- at 20 hundred.' I was be told because I was being given sleep medication, I had-- I had to have my television secured.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

So, they-- so, Sergeant Garnet [sp.] gave me this, said, 'Fill this out.'

And that is why I crossed through a lot of this-- I crossed out the sworn part, because, you know, I crossed out the, 'I am freely and voluntarily,' and a lot of-- there's a lot of wording of this language that I crossed out and put initials by, because it wasn't correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, you weren't going to sign a voluntary statement with that sort of language that is crossed off on this?

Pfc. Manning

Definitely not, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Thank you. Cause you were worried to fill one of these out?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir. And, that's the way I was-- I was taking this was-- this was. 'Here is a voluntary statement. Fill this out.' I mean it wasn't unambiguous--

Prosecution (Fein)

Sure.

Pfc. Manning

--un or an--

Prosecution (Fein)

Could you flip now to the next one in the line, from 16 January 2011?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Bates number 43324. Now on this on-- it-- it states where you wrote, 'securing recreation call due to conflict of scheduling of weekly television shows.' And then you signed this one.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, there was a-- there was a television show that I wanted to-- that-- that I was wanting to see, so I asked if I could-- if I could have recreation call later, and this is on the 16th.

I asked if I could have recreation call later, and-- then later Sergeant Garnet [sp.] again came by and gave me this, and told me to fill this out.

And, it didn't have the 'sworn' language that I could cross, because it-- there is no 'sworn' language at the bottom.

Prosecution (Fein)

But they crossed out the same portion and [re?]initialed on the top?

Pfc. Manning

Correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

Changing it from 'voluntary' to something else?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then on-- if you-- you flip again-- on 6 February 2011, this seems to be similar-- 'refusing rec call due to schedule clash between TV'?

Pfc. Manning

Again, it was the same-- it was a very similar thing, where I-- I mean normally I would be able to, you know, they would give me some options, as to when recreation would be, and TV call and recreations call, depending on the calls of the day, were clashing.

So-- so sometimes they would-- they would-- they would give me this at the end of the day, and say, 'You have not been able,' you know, and-- and I don't remember-- I don't remember what days these were-- these were on, sir.

But, you know, there were times whenever-- I felt-- I really felt uncomfortable with filling these out, because it seemed like I-- it seemed like it was not-- it was not proper for me to be filling these out, but I didn't want to refuse an immediate direct order, because I didn't how-- I didn't know what to do in those circumstances.

Prosecution (Fein)

But on-- but on Christmas day you did refuse to sign one?

Pfc. Manning

On Christmas day, yes, I did.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, previously you had refused to sign it?

Pfc. Manning

I had refused to sign it, and it was uncomfortable-- there was some problems with that.

I think Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart came to talk to me about that. I don't remember.

Prosecution (Fein)

Now I would like to talk to you-- because that it sitting right here-- but on 16 February 2011, you also made a choice to forgo rec time, cause you were out of the Brig all day for the 706 [board].

Pfc. Manning

That's not correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Then, what did happen that cause you to refuse a voluntary statement?

Pfc. Manning

Well, because I was being told to fill out a voluntary statement for recreation-- to-- to cancel recreation call that I did-- that I did want to attend.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

Because the-- I would-- I would come back from the 706 board, and they would be slightly settling down for the day, and they would be like, 'Oh,' you know, 'your recreation call,' you know, 'Your not going to be able to do it. Fill out this voluntary statement.'

Prosecution (Fein)

But, the voluntary statement does-- it is-- could be sworn, like it has the language at the bottom you crossed out.

So, you could have actually written what you just said on the form, swore to it, signed it, and given it to them.

Pfc. Manning

No.

Prosecution (Fein)

'I do not voluntarily do this.'

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You couldn't have done it?

Pfc. Manning

My understanding was that I could not, sir. They would throw away the form if I did that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Did-- did they tell you that?

Pfc. Manning

They threw-- Sergeant Garnet on one particular occasion. Took the form. Ripped it up. And, gave me another one and said, 'Fill this out the way that I say that you fill it out.'

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, so you-- so, they told you-- or they would discard it, and they told you that if you wrote under sworn-- sworn statements saying, 'That I absolutely wanted rec call, and you took it away from me,' then that would be torn up or destroyed?

Pfc. Manning

Exactly, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

I mean I was-- I was very-- and I brought this up with Mr. Coombs, and, you know, I was just told to not-- I mean, not fill any of these-- not deal with any of these voluntary statements. And, it was very uncomfortable, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, on 27 February 2011, you were sick at the time?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you did not have rec call that day. The records show that it was because you voluntarily didn't want to have rec call?

Pfc. Manning

I think that one...that one was a legitimate.

Prosecution (Fein)

But you still refused to sign a voluntary statement?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. I had advice of counsel not to fill out any more voluntary statements starting around this early February time frame.

Prosecution (Fein)

That is 27 February. But-- so that one--

Pfc. Manning

Well, no following this last one with-- where I got the, 'I have been sworn...I have been sworn to this statement by Corporal Stockten [sp.].'

After that happened, I brought that up with Mr. Coombs, and he advised me not to touch any 'voluntary statements' anymore.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And then-- so that was on the 27 February?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, did you tell the Brig that?

Pfc. Manning

They knew, yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, originally when presented the option to sign a 'voluntary statement', you opted for it?

Pfc. Manning

There were earlier 'voluntary statements' that are similar to that, that are not in the records for instances like that. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you did originally sign them?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. I would-- I would fill them out, and then-- for things-- for things where I was actually voluntarily saying, 'No,' you know, 'I don't want to do this.'

But there were instances, where they started around the December timeframe, where they would not be able to fill out, you know-- they would not be able to-- to execute the recreation call within-- before taps-- before the schedule change, and they would give me the form, and I would have to fill-- they would tell me that I had to fill it out.

And, I figured-- and, I was uncomfortable with this. I didn't know if they were just trying to cover themselves for not being able to-- for not scheduling a recreation call.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, you weren't aware though at the time that they were making the log entries and had their own scheduling, since you refused to sign.

Pfc. Manning

Yes. I was definitely aware of that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, if you were aware that they were doing that, if you refused to sign, then why would you be compelled to sign?

Pfc. Manning

Because they would give me these forms, and they would stand there-- I mean Sergeant Barnet [sp.] in particular was one, who was giving me these forms, and saying, you know-- and standing there, 'This is a direct order,' you know, 'Sign this voluntary statement.'

I mean, I caved in a coupled times, and you can see, but after I changed the wording, the language, because I was not comfortable with signing anything that looked like a sworn statement, because it-- because I mean a sworn statement is a very serious thing, you know, declaration on penalty of perjury as well.

I didn't-- I don't feel comfortable, because I wasn't sure what the legal status of these documents were basically. I am more familiar with Army sworn statements that have a lot more language to it-- a lot more boxes to fill in et cetera et cetera.

And, that is what I was more familiar with, because these didn't have a lot of that-- those boxes in it and et cetera. I wasn't sure what the legal status of these documents.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, that started in December, correct? Before December you were signing them?

Pfc. Manning

Well we have-- we have the records of these [missed word]. There were instances were-- were I-- before this-- were I would fill out a sworn statement or a voluntary statement, not knowing it was a sworn, not knowing that it could be used as a sworn statement.

I don't know. Again, I don't know the legal status of these documents. I still don't, and, you know-- I filled them out before hand with no issue, because, you know, my recreation call would be secured, you know-- because I didn't want to finish my recreation call.

I mean, we are talking about November October timeframe of 2010, but whenever they started to not be able to fill that in, and tell me to that I needed to fill these out, I got uncomfortable, sir.

And, so that is whenever these crossing out and these awkward moments started happening, sir. It was around the December timeframe.

Prosecution (Fein)

Thank you. Your Honor, I am retrieving from the [witness?] what has been marked as appellate exhibit 426 Charlie.

Private First Class Manning I would like to now bring you to the time that, that you talked about yesterday when you were-- when you were standing at attention at parade rest naked in the morning.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

That is the morning of-- of 2 March 2011?

Pfc. Manning

Early March-- I don't-- I don't recall the exact dates, if you have something to remind me, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

I actually don't right this second, so-- but early March. Will you please explain to the Court--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--so the normal-- what the normal procedure was in the morning time wise? Maybe this will help. When did-- when were you woken up?

Pfc. Manning

Okay. Zero five was-- we would have 'Reveille Reveille Reveille,' announced at zero five in the morning normally.

And, then if-- sometime it would be immediately, 'Stand by for count.' Sometimes we would do a hygiene call or either give us our-- or give me a razor.

I'd shave my face, and then return it. And, then we would have count. Sometime-- it wasn't always-- sometime it was count first. Sometimes it was 'hygiene call' first, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And that's at zero five? And when did the count occur, after 'Reveille Reveille Reveille'?

Pfc. Manning

05:01 as early as that. As late as 05:20, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, so just depending on when the counter came around?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. And, when 'Stand by for count,' would be announced, sir.

Typically-- typically it was done very-- very quickly, sir. And the DBS was the counter, the Duty Brig Supervisor.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, 'Reveille Reveille Reveille'--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--and that's waking everyone up?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir--

Prosecution (Fein)

And, then--

Pfc. Manning

--and, turning the lights on, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--turn the lights on. And then, when were you given your clothing black to put on after-- at that point?

Pfc. Manning

On 3 March?

Prosecution (Fein)

No. On the normal day.

Pfc. Manning

On the normal day? After I had-- after I had my clothing removed-- so post 2 March or 3 March, it was sometimes as early as 04:50.

Sometime it would be after 'Reveille Reveille Reveille'. So, it would be within a few minutes. Sometime-- sometimes-- it was always-- it was always before.

Well, it wasn't always-- for the first couple days, it was not before count.

Prosecution (Fein)

And the clothing wasn't put on the-- where--

Pfc. Manning

[Missed word] it was put in a feed tray, where-- just the opening of the cell door, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And so, it was laid there. So, sometimes early it was there--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--and sometimes you woke up and it wasn't there?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then they would be brought to you?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Judge Lind

Major Fein, I don't want to interrupt you. Can I just get a point of clarification? Before the 2nd of March what was the status of your clothing at night?

Pfc. Manning

I still had some. I mean-- I still had underwear then.

Judge Lind

At any point before 2 March, since you arrive, did you have anything more than underwear?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I did, Ma'am. When-- can you repeat the question, your Honor?

Judge Lind

[to prosecutor] Alright, I think you know where I am going.

Prosecution (Fein)

Yeah. I do, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

I'll let you make that--

Prosecution (Fein)

Alright, Private First Class Manning, before 2 March, you were still allowed to sleep in your underwear, correct?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. I still had-- I still had some under garments and socks, I think.

Prosecution (Fein)

But not-- but not your entire compliment of clothing?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, so during that time, prior to the Brig ordering your underwear to be removed--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--you-- how was that clothing then given back to you, like the sweats that you were talked about earlier?

Pfc. Manning

Oh. Before it was-- before 3 March it was placed-- it was usually-- it was usually given to me within ten to fifteen minutes of 'Reveille Reveille Reveille'.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, is it-- is it the same as you just talked about as either right before or right after by like ten minutes?

Pfc. Manning

It varied a lot, sir. I mean-- sometimes it was after count, sometimes it was before count, but, you know, it-- I mean, sometime-- sometimes I would be standing-- but I was always standing with-- with clothing on at that point, whether it was a low level of clothing or full uniform-- I mean, and that was the variation.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, what you testified about yesterday was on that morning, you were ordered to stand at attention or parade rest, naked?

Pfc. Manning

Parade rest, attention, and then parade rest, again.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And, you were specifically ordered to not have your clothing on or to cover yourself, because you did not have clothing?

Pfc. Manning

The wording of the statement, and I can't see, because I don't have glasses on. So, I can't see who is in the observation booth.

The door was cracked open. And, I stood with the prevention of injury blanket over me as I normally did, on-- whenever I was on 'suicide watch' or 'suicide risk' status, for--

Then the door opened a crack, and a voice from inside, one of the guards said, 'Detainee Manning, is that how you stand at parade rest?'

And, I asked again or I-- I was confused by this. I was not sure. I mean, I was like, 'How do you want me to stand?' And he is like, 'Is that how you stand at parade rest?' I understood that to mean, you know, put the blanket down.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

So, I put the blanket down.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, the guard did not actually say, 'Put the blanket down'? He said, 'Is that how you stand at parade rest?'

Pfc. Manning

'Is that how you stand at parade rest, detainee Manning?'

Prosecution (Fein)

'Detainee Manning,' but not 'Detainee Manning, put the blanket down'?

Pfc. Manning

Correct. It's a-- it's an-- it's an implied task, not a direct order.

Prosecution (Fein)

Sure, but you implied it, cause it's an implied task?

Pfc. Manning

Well I-- I asked for clarification on that.

Prosecution (Fein)

And?

Pfc. Manning

And, I just got the same statement again similarly.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay--

Pfc. Manning

--cause I mean it's not an illegal order, or anything like that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Oh, I understand. I mean--

Pfc. Manning

--I mean it wasn't like-- the wording I had been given by the staff was that any order that you are given, unless it immediately-- immediately causes you danger or harm, is a proper one, until you-- and then execute it, you know, unless it's 'life, leg, or eyesight'.

I think the tarantula-- I think tarantula jar was an example that was used a lot, you know.

If a guard orders you to put your hand in a tarantula jar, don't-- don't do that, you know. Refuse that order, but, you know, anything else a part from a-- anything else that's not-- that's not immediately dangerous-- that's not immediately harmful or dangerous, you execute that, and then complain about it later, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So-- I understand that. What I am trying to understand and really if not-- me, I am trying to have Colonel Lind understand is, that-- so that morning you stood up and you had your POI blanket on you--

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--you didn't have your underwear on, because you were ordered the day before to remove them--

Pfc. Manning

--I didn't have glasses either, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--or your glasses. And, you had your blanket on you?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then the DBS--

Pfc. Manning

Not the DBS. The guard inside the booth.

Prosecution (Fein)

The individual we saw on the video in the observation booth...

Pfc. Manning

--the observation booth. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Then ordered you to or made a comment, 'That's not how you stand at parade rest--'

Pfc. Manning

Yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

'--detainee Manning?'

Pfc. Manning

'Detainee Manning, is that how you stand at parade rest?'

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you responded?

Pfc. Manning

I responded-- I mean I was looking for the correct rank as well, because I can't see the guard. So I don't know if it's Corporal. I don't know--

Prosecution (Fein)

Sure.

Pfc. Manning

--what rank it is, but I guessed at Lance Corporal, and I didn't get corrected on that, so I said, 'Excuse me, Lance Corporal,' or, 'Can you,' you know, 'rephrase that, Lance Corporal?'

And, he said, 'Detainee Manning,' or something to the effect-- or something to the effect of, 'Detainee Manning, is that how you-- is that how you stand at parade rest,' and I don't remember is it was, '--with a blanket over you?'

I don't recall if that was said or not, but it was certainly implied that, 'Take the blanket off.'

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. But, did you seek clarification?

Pfc. Manning

I did, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then what did you-- what did you ask or say?

Pfc. Manning

That was how-- that was how-- that was what I did. I was like-- I was like, 'Can you rephrase that,' I mean, 'Is that-- is that what you want me to do? Do you want me to set the blanket down?'

And, there was a moment where, I would [missed word] that was, 'Yes,' you know. I did-- I did seek clarification. I remember that.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, you specifically asked them, 'Do you mean you want me to put the blanket down?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So you didn't say, 'What do you want me to do?' It was, 'You want me to put--'

Pfc. Manning

Well, I mean yeah. I have to-- I have to word things from sort of a third person, because it's a-- it's a Brig, sir.

So, I would have to word-- word it as, 'Detainee Manning requests clarification on the order--' or something like that. Something that I had to.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. But so, you would then say, 'Detainee requests clarification on that order?'

Pfc. Manning

Yeah. But I don't know-- I don't know if that is exactly the wording I said. I was groggy. I mean-- it was 05 in the morning, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

No. I understand. Unfortunately, I understand.

So, you would have to ask it in third person? Which does seem confusing. So, you answer in third person, but are you answering-- saying basically, 'Detainee Manning needs the order repeated,' or is it--

Pfc. Manning

I don't recall the exact phrasing I said.

Prosecution (Fein)

--okay, and what was the response back from the guard within the hut?

Pfc. Manning

Essentially, 'Yes. Place--' I mean it wasn't, 'Place the blanket down,' but I understood-- I think I asked, 'Do you want me to put the blanket down?'  

Prosecution (Fein)

But you have to ask in the third person--

Pfc. Manning

Correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

--that seems confusing right now?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. It's very confusing.

Prosecution (Fein)

--so you would ask in third person, 'Do you mean you want me to put my blanket down?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes. 'Detainee Manning, request whether I need to put the [missed word] blanket down, Sir?'

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, so you asked that?

Pfc. Manning

Something to that effect, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then the response you got back was, 'Yes.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So it wasn't about you not standing at parade rest. You are saying, it was actually then about you standing without clothing on or without the blank on, excuse me?

Pfc. Manning

Well the-- the phrasing of the question from the Brig beginning was, you know, 'Detainee Manning, is that-- is that how you stand at parade rest?'

Prosecution (Fein)

Sure. Sure. But, as you said before, you were implying something from there-- from the original question.

Pfc. Manning

Correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, cause you could be holding a blanket a lot of different ways, that could be a modified parade rest or not.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And this guard was standing in the guard shack?

Pfc. Manning

Sitting down in a chair. I could hear the wheels, but never-- I can't really see a lot. I see the-- I see the mirror-- what I call-- I mean, it's a window, but I see, you know-- I see the reflection, and then there's the door, and the door is cracked open, and they usually sit on a wheelie chair with five wheels, and-- and-- they-- whoever it was-- I don't know who it was, sir-- opened the door, and said, 'Detainee Manning, is that how you stand at parade rest?'

Prosecution (Fein)

Did they close the door afterwards?

Pfc. Manning

No.

Prosecution (Fein)

Or, were they standing there in the doorway?

Pfc. Manning

They had--

Pfc. Manning

--or sitting, excuse me.

Pfc. Manning

--sitting with the door cracked open, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Got it. Do you remember later that morning, not to long after, Staff Sergeant Terry [sp.] showing up?

Pfc. Manning

I do. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, do you remember him counseling you that morning that you should and will never stand naked without clothing?

Pfc. Manning

No. I don't recall that, sir. I don't recall it being like that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. We've gone for about an hour, do-- do you need a comfort break?

Pfc. Manning

I could do with one [missed a few words].

Prosecution (Fein)

Your Honor, United States moves for a fifteen minute break.

Judge Lind

Fifteen minutes?

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Alright. Any objection?

Defense (Coombs)

No, your Honor.

Judge Lind

Court is in recess until 2:15 or [missed a few words]

ALL RISE

ALL RISE

Judge Lind

Please be seated. This Article 39(a) Session is called to order. Let the record reflect all parties present when the Court last recessed are again present in Court. Major Fein.

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes, Ma'am. Private First Class Manning, I would like to now direct you...I guess for your frame of reference and kind of [missed word].

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

When you were still in Iraq on 27 May 2010, yesterday you testified that was when essentially CID showed up and you were ordered into your CHU?

Pfc. Manning

I never-- when-- I never saw my CHU after that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. You were ordered into a-- a [missed word]?

Pfc. Manning

An interview room at the Brigade Headquarters building, yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And where did you then sleep at night?

Pfc. Manning

They brought me to a completely different CHU.

Prosecution (Fein)

And that's were-- your-- you-- where you stayed or slept with two guards?

Pfc. Manning

At night, yes, sir. Two guards and some visitors.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, sir. Ah, excuse me [for calling him 'sir'].

You were also ordered, the same time that you were in that-- that other CHU. You were ordered not to access a computer?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. That is correct, sir. Well, not immediately. I didn't-- I didn't know that.

It was not until the next day after I work up, and the following day that I was nearby to a computer, and I was about to go use it, and then they told me that I couldn't-- that I was not suppose to, sir. So, if that [missed a few words].

Prosecution (Fein)

So, on 28 May?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. The following day, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then on 28 May, that same day, you had requested Specialist Shaab [sp.] from the S2 Shop to stop by your CHU at 9:30 that night?

Pfc. Manning

Schwaab [sp.]. Yes, 21 hundred, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

To stop by that evening.

Defense (Coombs)

Objection, your Honor. Relevance?

Judge Lind

Overruled.

Prosecution (Fein)

Go ahead?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, I did. To come to my-- to come to my-- after she knew she was available, and-- and I told her where the-- which-- which CHU it was, because there's a trailer, and then there's-- it's split into different sections.

So, I told her which-- which LSA [Logistics Support Area] it was in her [missed two words] in was in et cetera.

Prosecution (Fein)

And she showed up and you asked her to [stay?] that night?

Pfc. Manning

She came a little earlier, yes. Yes. So I think it was 20-- 23rd.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, and then when she showed up, you handed her a piece of paper with your Gmail account username and password on it?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. I did, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you asked her to check your email for you?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. And, I also asked her if she had any books that I could read...that I could borrow, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, she went, left, checked the email and came back and reported to you what she found.

Pfc. Manning

She...she told me what the subjects were in the inbox. And, she also got me 'The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo' as a book, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then Private First Class Manning once you were in Kuwait, you contacted your aunt to update your Facebook Page?

Pfc. Manning

I did. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And it was updated-- while you were in Kuwait, you had her updated it to say, 'Some have you may have heard, that I have been arrested for disclosing classified information to unauthorized persons. See--,' and then it's the web site for the Apache video.

Defense (Coombs)

Objection, your Honor. Again, relevance.

Judge Lind

What is the relevance?

Prosecution (Fein)

Your Honor, the relevance is yesterday, Private First Class Manning testified that when he left Iraq and moved to Kuwait, he was sort of out of it, and doesn't really remember what occurred, and there is entire dialogue yesterday about that.

Judge Lind

Overruled.

Pfc. Manning

Can you repeat the question for me?

Prosecution (Fein)

When you contacted your aunt in Kuwait. You asked her to post to Facebook?

Pfc. Manning

I did. To post to Facebook, yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

And you asked her to post, 'Some of you may have heard that I have been arrested for disclosure of classified information to unauthorized persons. See...' and then its the web site for the Apache video disclosure.

Pfc. Manning

I did not tell her to write that, no. She wrote that. I told her to put a posting on my Facebook to let everybody know that I was alive and well.

Just to make sure that everybody that knew-- because my-- my concern was that-- was that nobody-- because if I'm-- if-- if I'm going 72, you know, 96 hours-- 72 or 96 hours without updating anybody, I mean I was worried that somebody might think that I might have passed away-- I might have got killed or injured or something like that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Now, to bring you back to the Brig, and-- and really to focus on visitation and visitors. You-- you were allowed to have visitors, while you were at Quantico?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, I was.

Prosecution (Fein)

And you chose who can and cannot visit you?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. Well, to an extent. I did-- I didn't-- I didn't know-- I didn't always know if somebody was coming.

And, I wasn't-- I wasn't sure if I was able to refuse a visitor once they had been placed on the list. So, that was a...that was a grey area that I wasn't sure of, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, so-- that makes sense. You had also-- you have-- it was your decision whether someone was allowed to visit you at all?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

If they weren't on your list, then they could not visit you?

Pfc. Manning

Unless it was an official visit. Then I could not-- could not-- then I definitely could not refuse them.

Prosecution (Fein)

So you could choose, if you wanted to add anyone from a family member to a member of the press, US Congressman, anyone you chose, you-- you could decide to put on your list?

Pfc. Manning

No. The Brig order specified that it was only persons that I knew, and persons that I was like friends with or family members.

It wasn't like business. It specifically said, you know, no business relationships, or anything like that.

I don't remember the exact wording, but something to that effect. So, it was-- it was mostly intended for friends and family.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, it-- actually I think it's-- correct me if I am wrong-- the Brig Order says, unless you have prior relationship with an individual--

Pfc. Manning

Correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

--that you could not add them to your list.

Pfc. Manning

Right, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, Chief Averhart permitted you to add people who you didn't have a prior relationship with to your list.

Pfc. Manning

I wasn't sure of that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you were allowed to add people to your list that you didn't have a prior relationship with?

Pfc. Manning

I wasn't sure of that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. When presented--

Pfc. Manning

--because I didn't have a document that overrode the Brig Order-- the Brig Order, the guidance that I had, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Sure. So, when presented with the option specifically you chose not to add [missed title Fein gave] Juan Mendez from the United Nations?

Pfc. Manning

No. He's not a friend or family member, sir. That was my understanding was that I could not add him, and then if I were to add him, then I would face-- that I could face a discipline-- disciplinary action.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And did that [missed word] go, you could have added, for instance, Representative Kucinich to your visitor's list?

Pfc. Manning

I have no idea about that. I mean, that's a grey area.

I mean, I don't know this person personally, but, you know, the members of Congress have on official-- they have the-- they are working in an official capacity at the US Capitol, you know-- US Capitol, and a part of-- and there are several branches of Government.

So, I didn't know whether or not, you know-- I know-- I know there are legislative liaisons for the different branches and things, but I didn't, you know, I didn't know what that was, but he was-- he did not have a role with-- for the added people to the list.

He did not fit into the category of somebody I had a prior relationship with in terms of friends or family, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So it's still on the visitors. But, on 16 March 2011, you instructed the Brig to remove many people from your list, and you actually split up the document?

Pfc. Manning

No. It was-- what it was, was-- it wasn't necessarily that I-- that I wanted to remove them.

It was that I wanted to remove two people in particular that I remember, and they gave me an entirely new set of forms.

And a lot of the information was bad on some of these forms, because they had been written, when I first got there.

So, a lot-- and some of them just contained garbage information, like addresses that were totally wrong or the names that were misspelled and things like that.

So, I-- I transferred only-- I transferred some of the addresses over that I knew would-- could potentially visit me, and I knew the information was-- as far as I knew, correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, I would like to go through some of these names to...to understand how these would fall in? So, the first name removed was your cousin, Becky?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, Daniel Clark was removed?

Pfc. Manning

I don't-- I thought-- I thought he was still-- I thought I moved him over.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, who was Daniel Clark?

Pfc. Manning

Daniel Clark is a-- is a friend of mine that I knew in-- starting in 2009, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You remove, you talked about yesterday, a gentleman named David House?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, who is David House?

Pfc. Manning

David House was-- I mean he was an acquaintance that I met through Danny Clark, or Mr. Daniel Clark, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Would you describe Mr. House as an activist?

Pfc. Manning

I have no idea. I've-- I mean he certainly became one. I didn't-- whenever I-- whenever I first met him I thought he was just a-- I thought he was just a regular guy. I saw him as sort of an acquaintance of mine through a friend.

Prosecution (Fein)

John [sounds like 'Coke-ly'], you removed him?

Pfc. Manning

I did, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Jason Edwards?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Toby [Sounds like 'Corenta']?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

[Sounds like 'Drew' and last name two or three syllables, starts with a plosive or derivative, like 'Pare-gets' or 'Para-gets']?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Nate Kennedy?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, Jordan Davis?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Joshua Solely [sp.]?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

George Lawson [sp.]?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Chris Wood?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Paul Steven Lopez?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Glenn Greenwald?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Jeff Patterson?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Trevor Fitzgibbons?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Who's Trevor Fitzgibbons?

Pfc. Manning

He is-- he is somebody that I met through-- potentially-- Mr. Coombs had introduced me to Mr. Fitzgibbons.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, who was he?

Pfc. Manning

I mean I wasn't really sure of his status. I mean, he was some kind of-- he was some kind of like PR consultant that he was looking at-- he was potentially using.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you say, you met him through Mr. Coombs?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, he was someone you didn't know prior to confinement?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you were allowed to have him on your roster?

Pfc. Manning

From what I understood, yes. Because of-- I mean I didn't whether he was-- I didn't know what status he was in, but Mr. Coombs said that-- that it was fine. So, I didn't-- I don't know, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, when you added him to the-- to the list-- that thing had your mail and visitors, it wasn't rejected by the-- by the Brig?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So on the topic of visitors, you did receive visitors periodically through your pretrial confinement at Quantico?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. I don't-- I don't recall exactly the dates and times or anything like that, but I did. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Would you average, you would say, almost every weekend?

Pfc. Manning

No. It felt like-- it felt like longer, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you were permitted, Saturdays and Sundays only or Holidays, to have visitors?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, Sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, when you met with these visitors, these meetings were recorded?

Pfc. Manning

To my understand, yes, starting in like September timeframe. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, privileged meetings were not recorded [missed a few words]?

Pfc. Manning

To my understand, yes. We did it in a separate booth. One that did not have a sign that said, 'This-- this booth is subject to monitoring and recording,' or something to that effect.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, like we talked about before, when the ones that were recorded, you signed a consent form, and so did the other participant?

Pfc. Manning

To my understanding for-- with-- for some of the visits with civilians, yes that was the case.

Prosecution (Fein)

And the privileged ones with defense counsel as you spoke of or even psychiatrists, chaplains, those weren't-- you weren't signing consent forms, and to the best of your knowledge, they weren't recorded?

Pfc. Manning

I thought the-- I thought that it could be monitored-- I mean, they didn't write but did think-- the Brig thought that they could be monitored by guards for a period of time, where they could sit in the room, but not necessarily record anything.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, for instance-- well just, I guess-- you weren't signing a consent form, even like forensic psychiatrists, Doctor Hocter, Doctor Malone, [missed word identified for Doctor Russell] Doctor Russell. There were no forms being signed, this consenting.

Pfc. Manning

That is correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you even had for instance, you just mentioned, that you were introduced to Mr. Fitzgibbons by Mr. Coombs. Mr. Coombs even was able to sit in those meeting, but had to still sign a consent form, since he is your attorney.

Pfc. Manning

I guess. I guess. I wasn't privy to the other person signing anything.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, you didn't witness them on the other side of the glass?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct. I didn't-- I didn't know if they would sign the document. And, I didn't always-- I wasn't always given these forms to fill out, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Thank you. So, Private First Class Manning, what I would like to now do is talk to you about some of these meetings and conversations you had with these individuals, while they visited you at Quantico?

Pfc. Manning

Okay, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Your Honor, for judicial economy purposes, any of these recordings were provided in enclosure 49 on the CD to the Court.

And, if there is a question I will be able to cite the exact hour, minute and second. [to witness] Private First Class Manning on 18 September 2010, you met with Mr. David House and Mr. Daniel Clark?

Pfc. Manning

18 December?

Prosecution (Fein)

18 September. Thank you.

Pfc. Manning

Okay. September. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

2010. You-- they asked you, 'How are they, the Brig, treating you?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And you answered, 'Pretty good. It's not bad. It's not Oz,' or something like that?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And 'Oz' is a...an HBO show about prison?

Pfc. Manning

Ah, yes, with Maloney [sp.] and some other actors.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And then-- so, but your answer was, 'It's pretty good. It's not bad.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Your answer to them.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. I was trying to reassure them.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, when asked by Mr. House and Mr. Clark about you-- specifically about your prevention of injury status. You specifically stated a few things, 'It's unusual,' then you followed it with, 'My circumstances are not common,' and then that, 'They,' the Brig, 'are not too bad. And, I understand it all'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, that's correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, at the time, when you had Mr. House and Mr. Clark there. Rather than mentioning anything else this whole recording about your alleged treatment, you were actually at that time, more focused on hiring private investigators to find a fundraiser for you?

Pfc. Manning

I considered that. Well, I had told them that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Told them what, I'm sorry?

Pfc. Manning

I had told them that I was thinking about that. I'm-- I'm not quite-- the private investigator? Like can you-- can you clarify--?

Prosecution (Fein)

Absolutely. So, rather then ever mentioning anything that would even allude to your, to negative treatment by the Brig--

Pfc. Manning

Right.

Prosecution (Fein)

--you actually had most of the conversation focused on hiring a private investigator to find a fundraiser for you.

Pfc. Manning

A potential-- and I am also just a-- he is just a friend that I had previously who had just dropped off the radar, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, so 18th--

Pfc. Manning

--I wasn't-- I wasn't quite serious about it, but, you know, I said-- I said-- I think I said to Mr. Clark-- it was Mr. Clark who I was directing it to, but, 'It wouldn't seem like a bad idea.' It was more like a funny-- 'Hey, can you help me find this person?'

Prosecution (Fein)

--Okay, then-- but not on 18 September 2010--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--on that day, when talking to friends, you were more concerned about other issues, than ever talking about your treatment at Quantico Brig?

Pfc. Manning

Absolutely, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. I would like to direct your attention to a few weeks later, 25 September 2010.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

On 25 September 2010, you met with your aunt?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

At the very end of your meeting, your-- your aunt spoke about of asked you, 'Was there anything else you can think about that you needed other than a little cash'? At that point you said, 'No not really. Just tell everyone that I am doing fine.'

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, then your aunt mentioned or replied, 'I will. They are raising money, so that's good.'

Pfc. Manning

I guess. I mean I'm not sure if that the-- is that the-- I am not sure myself-- I don't recall if that the exact wording, but to get me money for-- to fill in my Brig account?

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Your account to get haircuts, and--

Pfc. Manning

Exactly.

Prosecution (Fein)

--and other sundry items?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then when your aunt continued to talk about the raise money, you said, 'I mean it's still going to be a while before the end of this confinement.'

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then at the end of the conversation, you said, 'Tell everyone I am doing fine.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, during this entire conversation on 25 September 2010 with your own aunt, you never mention anything about any type of treatment at Quantico, other than everything-- well, excuse me, your doing, 'fine'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Now jumping a month-- actually, two months ahead, 13 November 2010, you met with, you met with your aunt again?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And during that meeting, the only complaint you had, was that no one had actually visited you at the Brig in almost a month?

Pfc. Manning

That's right.

Prosecution (Fein)

And actually didn't say anything about the Brig itself?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, on the 13 November 2010, again there was nothing else going on at the Brig that you felt compelled to tell you aunt about at that point?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I wasn't going to talk-- I wasn't going to anybody under the recording circumstances about my confinement conditions.

Prosecution (Fein)

Yesterday you talked about, that POI was the highest priority on your mind every single day--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. It was.

Prosecution (Fein)

--but you didn't take the opportunity, so far to this point, when you were visited by David House and Danny Clark in early September, you aunt again, your aunt again ever talk about your conditions at that point.

Pfc. Manning

After-- after they installed the recording that is true.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, the chance you actually had to talk about it, and have it memorialize, if it was said, you chose not to?

Pfc. Manning

Under those recording circumstances, yes, sir.

I directed all the confinement and correctional issues that I had to my counsel to give to family members and friends.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, on 21 November 2010, you met with Mr. David House?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

The conversation started with updates on political and journalists network support for your developing case?

Pfc. Manning

On his end, he was talking about that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, and then Mr. House told you that Mr. Coombs had asked you to get all the supporters together or asked him, and, 'Keep them quiet for now, so future pushes can be made through an aggressive PR campaign'?

Pfc. Manning

He might have said that, yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, at that point in your conversation, you were more focused on adding people to the public affairs list, by getting recommendations, than even taking the opportunity to talk about your own confinement?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir. Under those recording conditions, yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

And you even explained, under those conditions to Mr. House that-- that you been-- that have writing time, but you have chosen not to write?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Mr. House asked you if you needed anything? Asked you if you needed anything? And, you only discussed wanting cash and book? Cash for that account and more books?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. That's correct. Because they could-- from what I remember they could leave small amounts of cash into the-- at the Brig. I think they could leave a twenty dollar bill, or something like that.

Prosecution (Fein)

But not at like-- they couldn't use an ATM?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct. I didn't have a-- it wasn't like a swiping machine or anything like that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But also during that same conversation, rather than discussing any treatment-- any treatment or alleged mistreatment, you would rather-- you chose to discuss the possibility of having a WikiLeaks organization lawyer assisting Mr. Coombs?

Pfc. Manning

I did not. I did not discuss that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, you had a back and forth with Mr. House? He said it to you, and then you had a discussion about whether it would be a good discussion or not.

Pfc. Manning

That is correct. I mean I-- I was trying to avoid saying a lot during these conversations. I was mostly listening, sir. So, I was mostly trying to listen, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So-- so in that regard, when you did have the chance to at least talk. In this one conversation on 21 November 2010, you even were talking to Mr. House and asking about how the glasses looked on your face, because you weren't use to having-- normally didn't wear any glasses, but then started choosing to wear glasses?

Pfc. Manning

I'm not sure what you mean by that, sir? That I-- that I wanted to wear glasses?

Prosecution (Fein)

No. What you asked Mr. House was, how the glasses were looking, because you started wearing them again?

Pfc. Manning

Oh, yes. I did. I did ask him that.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then at the very end, when Mr. House finally asked you how you were doing, you simply answered, you're doing alright, and are 'pretty stable.' And I quote, you actually said, 'Better than a significant portion of the population.'

Pfc. Manning

I-- yes, I did say that.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then Mr. House on that date, 21 November, commented to you that you actually, 'doesn't even look like you have lost that much weight.'

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then you responded, something to the effect of, 'I've lost some muscle, but not really much weight.'

Pfc. Manning

Ah, yes. My muscle mass was turning to flab, [some of the side effects?].

Prosecution (Fein)

And then you were asked by Mr. House on 'Whether you had to perform hard labor?' And you replied, 'No. You just sit up a lot.'

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then he commented, that 'It seems that's a very sedentary lifestyle,' and you followed...you followed with, 'It's not too bad.'

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir. That is what I said.

Prosecution (Fein)

And after Mr. House said that, that 'You must be running out of things to do, by sitting all day,' you simply then explained that 'It wasn't that bad, like the people back in the Victorian age.'

Pfc. Manning

That is correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

Because you can specifically, 'Sit there, and think a lot.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Now, Private First Class Manning, I'd like you to think back to Christmas Day, as you did before 25 December 2010.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You were visited by your cousin [Robin?].

Pfc. Manning

[Robin?] [missed a word, maybe last name] Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And on that day, 25 December 2010, you were asked whether you had seen yourself, or he had seen you on TV?

Pfc. Manning

Something to that effect, yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, your cousin then talked about-- he stated that, 'Yes, the TV's talking about your bad treatment in jail.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, you stated that, 'Yes. Mr. Coombs was very well spoken, and has some good talking point.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you did not even take that opportunity to discuss at all with your cousin your confinement conditions?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you did focus on future talking points for the media?

Pfc. Manning

I am not sure what you mean by that question.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, rather than talking about confinement conditions, you were actually commenting on the different ways that talking points could be give, not about confinement, but generally family members talking to the media.

Pfc. Manning

I didn't want them talking to the media, sir...was what I want. That was a general thing was that I didn't want family members talking to people.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, so then later--

Pfc. Manning

--but it--

Prosecution (Fein)

--go ahead, please--

Pfc. Manning

--but-- I mean I was-- I was uncomfortable with family members talking to media in general, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Alright. Private First Class Manning, later during that same visit, rather than discussing any condition in the facility on 25 December 2010, you were focused on pictures of yourself on Facebook.

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You had your dialogue with your cousin and asking if certain ones could be taken off or others could [come? off?].

Pfc. Manning

Yes. Because-- when I did-- somebody in the family had access to that, because there were pictures that were up there, that had other people in them, and I was concerned about that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Now, I would like to think back to 5 February 2011.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

This is the meeting where Mr. Coombs brought Mr. Trevor Fitzgibbons to meet you for the first time.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You spoke to Mr. Fitzgibbons and Mr. Coombs for more than an hour.

Pfc. Manning

Probably. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, during this conversation you spent all of the time focusing on developing your own public image, and public affairs campaign, and fundraising, and never spoke about your confinement conditions.

Pfc. Manning

That-- that-- I think that was the gist of the conversation. I don't know how much I took part in it-- I don't have-- I don't recall a lot, but that was a-- I tried to play a passive role in listening.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And, then, at the end of the conversation actually, you will recollect, Mr. Coombs left.

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, it was just you and Mr. Fitzgibbons.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, at that point, Mr. Fitzgibbons said, 'Thank you for letting me help in anyway I can.' And that, he has been trying to use David House on the television. But even at that point-- even at that point when you are talking about David House on television, you never mentioned anything about your alleged confinement conditions.

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You both even joked about drinking Coke. That you were actually even getting caffeine in the Brig.

Pfc. Manning

It was a-- it was 'Volt' that I was drinking. It was a drink that they had at the OCS [Officer Candidate School]. I don't-- I don't recall-- maybe I used the word, 'Coke,' but 'Volt' was the drink there-- grey sort of a greenish yellow color. It's very similar to Mountain Dew.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, that was the caffeinated drink that you could get?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, Mr. Fitzgibbons told you that none of your conversations with David House or him would ever go into the press.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, you knew-- at least at that point, you could tell him something.

Pfc. Manning

Well, I mean we will still under-- I mean we are still being recorded.

Prosecution (Fein)

You are.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And you know its being recorded and kept.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you didn't even take that opportunity to discuss anything about your confinement conditions.

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Now, I would like you to-- to think back to 27 February 2011.

Pfc. Manning

Okay.

Prosecution (Fein)

You met with Mr. Fitzgibbons and Mr. House again together?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, they were together.

Prosecution (Fein)

Now this is 27 February. It's right before the March incident and it's right before the New York Times March article?

Pfc. Manning

I don't-- I don't know what those are, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Well the article that I was talking about was used with Col. Oltman that defense counsel was using about the email from Col. Oltman and Col. Choike earlier this week.

Pfc. Manning

Okay.

Prosecution (Fein)

During that meeting actually you had a cold. This is the same time you voluntarily did not do rec call because you were feeling ill.

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, actually David House had the flu, and you laughed about how one had the other, and were afraid you would infect each other. So you wouldn't have to--

Pfc. Manning

We were in a non-contact booth there.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Then Mr. House asked you, 'How you were doing?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And the only answer you gave-- the only answer you gave was that you didn't feel well, because you were sick and really wanting antibiotics?

Pfc. Manning

I don't recall the antibiotics part, but I needed medication [missed a few words].

Prosecution (Fein)

And then later-- further Mr. House provided you many details of the 'effort to put forward experts and others on your behalf from the public.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, he did. He did. I mostly listened.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then he told you, he was really psyched, because it took a couple weeks to really recruit and find good people.

Pfc. Manning

Yes. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, then the very next conversation, rather then again, discussing any of your confinement conditions with him. You discussed your public image being changed from just 'David House making comments to other supporters or others trying to help'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. That was-- that was-- that was my sort of-- last dish attempt at trying to see if Mr. House was actually taking heed of my requests through counsel to stop to the press.

Prosecution (Fein)

Which, he eventually did stop?

Pfc. Manning

I don't recall that. We just stopped contact all together.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, once again, you did not discuss your confinement status at all?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, you even have someone in the press with you, and you have Mr. Fitzgibbons there a PR specialist, and you still chose, not to ever discuss your confinement conditions with him?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, despite what was being reported in the press on 3 March, we'll talk about in a moment that you and I just spoke about, you were actually spending a lot of this time talking about many different random topics such like the Sex Pistols Rock band and-- and other-- other unrelated topics?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, then Mr. House explained to you how 'propaganda is really useful, especially in the television [role?]'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. We had a-- we had a intellectual conversation. I think he was quoting some-- some early twentieth century works or something like that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Later in the conversation you coughed, and were asked if it was the food. You were probed to see if it was the food that was making you sick?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you replied the food is 'Good. Not bad.' In fact, you went through it an talked about the Swiss steak and the mashed potatoes you had for dinner--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And stated, 'It's not bad at all. I mean it's not the best I've had in the military, but it's not bad'?

Pfc. Manning

That's correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You were also asked by Mr. House, whether you could get exercise? And you responded, 'Yes,' but you stated, 'Not in the past few days, because you were sick'?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, that was the time you that you voluntarily elected not to do rec call, and still refused to sign that statement.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. It was still uncertainty as to the status of those-- of the documents, whether they were sworn statements or not.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, we just spoke about that email that was references yesterday. Private First Class Manning, it's a New York Times article. It started with, 'Do you remember this article about your treatment allegedly standing for seven hours naked, and Mr. House commented on your conditions?

Pfc. Manning

I don't-- I never actually me personally read the article. I know of it, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You know it was published on 3 March 2011?

Pfc. Manning

In early March, yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

In that article, Mr. House mentions that you were being pressured to cooperate with the Government?

Pfc. Manning

That was-- those were his words, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Correct.   And, he also said in his words, that he met with you on the previous weekend, and that is what you told him?

Pfc. Manning

Did I say that to him?

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, that is what I am asking you. Did you have a discussion with Mr. House about being coerced to cooperate with the Government?

Pfc. Manning

I have never-- I've never had-- I have never stated that to him, no.

Prosecution (Fein)

But that was just part of the PR campaign that was that was going on?

Pfc. Manning

I didn't-- I wasn't exactly sure what was going on. I was hearing these-- I was-- that's-- from my understanding [missed word]-- I am mostly trying to avoid talking to Mr. House-- except for talking about, you know, things that had nothing to do either the facility, the case, the, you know, anything surrounding that. I tried-- I tried myself to avoid speaking anything about that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Which-- which-- which makes sense, but later-- and we'll get to it in a moment-- but, right now, I am just talking about 27 February 2011-- and so up to this point from the very first visitors-- recorded visitors' conversations you had in September 2010 all the way up to 27 February 2011, you never told one person, or discussed with one person your confinement conditions?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

On 13 March 2011, you also Trevor Fitzgibbon and your cousin?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

The conversation started talking about how David, Mr. David House, is in England at that point, or was over in England.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, actually, from what you mentioned before, the conversation then basically went to you were concerned about the message that David House was putting out there?

Pfc. Manning

Definitely, yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Because, in your words, 'you were hoping where you mean that what he is actually--' - you're concerned with what 'he was actually thinking or what he just saying'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. That is correct.

Judge Lind

Wait a minute. I didn't [missed word]. Ask that question again.

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes, Ma'am. During this conversation that you had with Mr. Fitzgibbon and your cousin, you stated that you had asked them about Mr. House?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you had asked because you're hearing things and you're seeing things like you were getting worse?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you were concerned that that was what Mr. House actually thought or just what he was saying?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, I was concerned about that, yes.

Judge Lind

I thought you asked him an either/or question. Am I confused?

Prosecution (Fein)

I asked a poor question, your Honor. And, That is why I'm re-asking directly. I do not think I was doing an either/or, but I will try one more time.

Judge Lind

Look. I could be completely--

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

--confused.

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes, Ma'am.

[to witness]

You stated that you were concerned of one things-- one or the other thing. That this was your one concern. You concern was that was whether Mr. House actually thought that-- thought you were being treated [missed word], based off what he was saying or that--

Pfc. Manning

--or if he-- or if he was just saying that, and not actually believing it.

Prosecution (Fein)

Correct.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Judge Lind

Alright. And at the same meeting you were very concerned, as you mentioned earlier, that your family was talking to members of the press?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, definitely.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you were very concerned, because your father was talking to the media-- members of the press?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. That is true.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, your cousin's reassuring you that the rest of your family was-- was trying not to-- to keep everyone [missed a few word] from talking to members of the press.

Pfc. Manning

Yes. Apart from my father, yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

Correct. So, you were very concerned at the time and others at the time you removed everyone's names from the list?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You were very concerned about family issues?

Pfc. Manning

Definitely. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, also during this time, you never talked about your actual confinement status.

Pfc. Manning

Correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

You never talked about any type of treatment from the Brig?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You never talked about any-- any-- anyway guards interact with you?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you kept reassuring, everyone, your okay?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

In fact, during this meeting you said that everything was going, 'fine' except you are not getting much sleep.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then you talked really just about 'March Madness'?

Pfc. Manning

Definitely. That is-- that is one of the highlights of my year. I mean, yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, based off more than the twenty recordings at Quantico, from 18 September to April--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--you never shared your alleged concerns, you never, to anyone who visited you in person...

Pfc. Manning

That is correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

--despite if you had the opportunity--

Pfc. Manning

[Missed].

Prosecution (Fein)

--and that includes, you didn't-- your company commanders, and, your first company commander and your First Sergeant, except at the times it was documented?

Pfc. Manning

I did talk about my confinement conditions to First Sergeant Williams and Captain Casamatta routinely and repeatedly, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, never to the degree of documenting it?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, never submitting the IG complaint in the box to have a higher level look at what's going on?

Pfc. Manning

I didn't-- again, I didn't-- I wasn't sure how the inspector general portion worked for it, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you also chose to not speak to the Brig officials when given the opportunity at the C&A board?

Pfc. Manning

I did go to them. I did-- I did start to go to C&A boards.

Prosecution (Fein)

When, you went, you elected not to talk to them, when they asked you to explain why it was that you are-- that-- why it was you made one statement and then changed the statement.

Pfc. Manning

I did explain. I did attempt it [missed a few words].

Prosecution (Fein)

I guess, just as a final question, Private First Class Manning, yesterday, when Mr. Coombs was asking you about Mr. House and other visitors, you specifically said, you wanted to make sure he didn't stir anything up in the press?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, then, why were you having all these people come over, members that were representing you in the press, the entire time at Quantico?

Pfc. Manning

To gauge...to listen in to what they had to say or something, and to give them some reassurance that-- that I am not dying or anything like that--

Prosecution (Fein)

So when that all happened...

Pfc. Manning

--so, to give them a visual reassurance and to keep them close-- keep them close to me, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--but again, every time that happened, you never took the opportunity to talk to them about this?

Pfc. Manning

Definitely not. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Thank you. No further questions, your Honor.

Judge Lind

Redirect?

Defense (Coombs)

Yes, your Honor. [to witness] Pfc. Manning, why did you refer to the guards and the facility as, 'very professional'.

Pfc. Manning

They were always very professional, except for-- even there were small occasions where they would leave their role as a sort of-- because, as they are working there, they wear a duty belt and a cover, and that whenever they are in that, they are playing a role as a Marine, and as a Marine correctional specialist, and they never seem to leave that role, when they are wearing that...that cover and that belt, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you believe that the guards and their activity, and how they were treating you, other than on maybe 18 January, was professional?

Pfc. Manning

Absolutely. Definitely, very professional.

Defense (Coombs)

And, can you tell Colonel Lind, why?

Pfc. Manning

Well, they never-- they never spoke degradingly, apart from, you know, in the-- I mean, you know, there was the military bearing-- in particular the Marines Corp style of military bearing, which can be sort of aggressive, but it is still very professional. I mean they never-- they never left that. It was always very-- to be professional. I don't know how else to describe it for you.

Defense (Coombs)

And, with the guards being the people you interact with most--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Why did you then say the facility was professional?

Pfc. Manning

Again, the facility is professional. I mean, it runs, you know. Everything runs on time. Show runs on time. Everything-- everything runs on time. They go by the-- they go by what is written in the books. They go by what is written down. They go by whatever orders are written down. They do exactly what they are told, and they very-- they very infrequently deviated from that from what I saw at the facility, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you ever have any problems with any-- again, setting aside 18 January-- did you ever have any problems with any of the guards as far as how they were treating you?

Pfc. Manning

I mean there were some minor instances here and there of a-- of a uncomfortable moment-- I mean I knew that there was one particular guard that didn't particularly-- I knew I got the vibe from him that he didn't particularly like me or want to be around me, but I-- I didn't-- we just avoided each other essentially, and we didn't talk very much, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Was this any of the guards that were involved in your-- in the 18 January or to your knowledge the 2 March incident?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir. The a-- this guard was Corporal Ratiglio [sp.].

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. So, now let's talk about the voluntary forms. You said you received advice of counsel to not fill those out.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, can you tell Colonel Lind about that?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. I started-- I mean the facility started to give me-- I mean, they would give an inmate-- they would give me as an inmate this form, this 'voluntary statement'-- they would give it to me, anytime that I had-- that I wanted to do something that was different from the schedule.

So, if I wasted to change, you know, if I wanted to-- it was more for like refusal of eating or things like that-- which I never-- I never-- I never to my knowledge put that as a sworn statement that I am refusing chow or anything like that, but that's an example of one where it would be use.

Or recreation call was another one, where they-- where if you flat out refuse recreation call, then they would ask you to.-- initially they would ask me to fill it out, and I did.

But, if I was not feeling well or if I just didn't feel like going outside or doing recreation call, then I would fill it out without a problem.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so once you received advice of counsel, not to fill out these forms, when it really wasn't voluntary on your part.

Pfc. Manning

Right.

There was a moment-- I don't recall when, it was probably towards the December timeframe, whenever they started-- they went to these voluntary statements routinely and they-- they kept on putting them in front of me for times, whenever I wasn't getting-- cause there were days in which they-- I would not get rec call, and you know I would just miss it.

And, that happened before, you know in-- I don't recall what day it was, and then, I mean, I would mention it, and then it would be-- I would get comp-- I think I would get comp time-- like if I had a sunshine call one day, then I would-- if I missed a sunshine call one day, then I'd get a recreation or I'd get a sunshine call with thirty or forty minutes the next day-- because it's sort of comp-- cause it's sort of comp time for missing that.

And, that's early on, but there was a certain moment, where they started giving me these sworn-- these voluntary statements, and I don't know.

But, it has a swearing word verbiage at the bottom, that I wasn't sure what the status of this document was. And, I was getting increasingly concerned about having them-- having them presented pretty easily, and what they for.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. So, once I gave you that advice, did you ever have an exchange with Chief Barnes, about whether or not you would be in trouble if you crossed out or refused to fill out these forms?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. There was a-- she's said something that it's against Navy Regulations to cross out and initial portions that removed the voluntary language-- I mean the voluntary language and the-- and, I don't have the verbiage in front of me, but-- I mean to basically cross out and initial on the language that I was uncomfortable with.

And, the fact that I was not allowed to-- she also said that I was not-- that I had to fill these out, that I was not allowed to just flat out refuse to fill them out, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

I am showing you enclosure 26 to the Government's response. I believe it is appellate exhibit 259. Do you see-- if you would-- if you would open up to-- just go to [missed a few words].

In this form, you said that when the First Sergeant commander would ask you questions, and you would kind of go through it with them?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, when you get to-- let's use the 10 September form, which is page seven on that. You see, where you start to talk about prevention of injury and suicide watch?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what do you-- how do you respond to the question, "Do you understand why you are on suicide watch or injury prevention?'

Pfc. Manning

'No.' Well I checked them. That's what I see.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what do they write down there?

Pfc. Manning

'Not aware of why.'

Defense (Coombs)

[to Judge]

So, now I could without going through all this, but I would just ask the Court to take a look at each of these.

On probably two separate occasions, Pfc. Manning states why he not aware of the reasons for why he is on POI.

[to witness]

So, when you were addressing this with the First Sergeant or the Commander, what would their response be?

Pfc. Manning

That-- I mean we would just-- I mean we went over it, because we went over it a lot, and in terms of updates.

If there wasn't an update on anything, we just-- we just. I would say, 'No. I don't understand.'

And, we would move on to the next question. Sometimes-- sometimes. It wasn't always the case, but we would verbally talk about it.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, you also on another occasion. Now this is to fast forward a little bit to 11 February--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

--and that would be page 61 of 87 on the appellate exhibit. Do you see where you respond to, or at least your commander, in this [missed word] case, it's Sergeant First Class Jones wrote down your response on the POI?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what do you say in response to whether or not you know why you are on SR or POI?

Pfc. Manning

It says, 'Do you understand why you are on suicide watch or injury prevention?' And, I checked in the box, 'No,' or Sergeant First Class Jones does.

Defense (Coombs)

And what else does Sergeant Jones write?

Pfc. Manning

He doesn't write anything in the [missed word] right there. It just says, 'injury prevention six months.'

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. When your commander was coming to talk to you about this, you were at least addressing with them the fact that you didn't know why you were on POI?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

What was from your understanding, if you could tell Colonel Lind, your understand of once you raised the issue with your counsel, how we were going to try to handle the issue of you being on POI and MAX custody?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. We-- I mean we looked at it from the vantage point we wanted-- I mean I wanted to get off of POI, and the best way to accomplish that legally was to exhaust my administrative remedies.

And that was to go through each different step in the process, and you know, reach that conclusion.

We figured we would get there, you know, about a few-- we would check on-- we would check on a couple of these boxes in terms of exhausting administrative remedies, eventually the POI restriction would be lifted.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so before I advised you on filing a complaint or doing anything.

What was the first thing informally that we talked about possibly a way to get you of the MAX and POI?

Pfc. Manning

Just talking to the staff. And, talking to-- in particular, I mean it was the health care provider in particular that I was talking to.

Defense (Coombs)

Did I inform you at that point, what I would be doing to try to get you off of MAX and POI?

Pfc. Manning

I don't recall.

Defense (Coombs)

Do you recall me ever saying that I was going to talk to the trial counsel about this?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. We discussed this over the phone, and you-- I mean you said that you would-- I mean because I brought it up through my counsel, through you, sir.

As soon as I brought it up to you, you said, 'Hey,' you know, 'this is something I need to bring up with trial counsel and see-- and see what they are doing in their mind,' or, 'what they can do about this on their end.'

Defense (Coombs)

And, I know it's been a while, but do you recall kind of what I was telling you was happening from, you know, I was able to do for you?

Pfc. Manning

You emailed them. You emailed, I remember then Captain Fein, now Major. Fein responded back and said that he was going to look into it.

Defense (Coombs)

And, with regards to, I guess, the actions that were being taken informally. When did that come to a head, in your mind, where those steps were failing, and you'd be more formal?

Pfc. Manning

I put in a 5-10 in December, and I have always vocally said to the staff.

You know, I started asking questions. I got this discrepancy between-- I remember I got this discrepancy between what now Master Sergeant was saying and what Captain Hocter was saying about why I was on POI status.

So now I know, [missed word] had no idea what the justification was because medical health provider is saying one thing.

The counselor is saying another thing. And, I remember I put in a 5-10 regarding that to, I believe I directed it to Gunnery Sergeant Blenis-- then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis.

And, I never heard back on it. I never-- I don't know what happened to that form in mid-December.

And, because we-- nothing ever came up with them, and I talked to you about the fact of [missed a word], and we decided to go forward or I thought you meant, because I misunderstood, because I put in another 5-10 to the commander.

I think you, as I found out earlier, that you sent a memorandum detailing the exact same thing, but through the [missed word] counsel.

So, it's still me requesting from the commander to review it, but--

Defense (Coombs)

Do you know if we received any sort of response from my memorandum directly to Chief Averhart?

Pfc. Manning

I don't recall. I don't recall what that was, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, after a period of time--

Pfc. Manning

--I mean obviously nothing happened.

Defense (Coombs)

And, after a period of time we filed a 138 complaint, what did I tell you about that process?

Pfc. Manning

From what you-- from what you said, and what from doing, you know, I think you had to do some paperwork on the 138-- the Article 138 process, and so I had that, but it was just-- it was just for general-- it was that, we take a commander-- it has to be a commander that makes a decision and whether or not-- and, I-- and we have to believe that I was wronged in them making that decision, but in some way, according to the statute.

And then-- and then we would bring that up to the next highest-- the next high level to the General, all the way up to General Court Martial Convening Authority, and to the Service Secretary eventually.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when I was explaining the process to you, you got denied at every step of the way, all the way up to the Secretary of the Navy in this instance.

What did I tell you what I would do next?

Pfc. Manning

We would file a writ of extraordinary relief to the Army Court of Criminal Appeals.

Defense (Coombs)

What was out goal there?

Pfc. Manning

It was to get off of POI status, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, obviously we didn't have to do that, because you got moved, right?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir. We accomplished out goal.

Defense (Coombs)

Trial counsel asked you a lot of questions about the family visits that you got, and the conversations that you had.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Do you want to tell me why, you didn't want to talk about your confinement conditions when you family and friends visited you?

Pfc. Manning

Two reasons. One, I didn't want to my family-- I didn't want my family to be worried or concerned about me.

I mean I am sitting in front of them. They can see-- they clearly see that I'm in, you know, restraints and everything else.

And, I can see that they are uncomfortable with what they see. And, I didn't want to bring that up.

They see that I have two Marines behind me, and I didn't want them to-- I didn't want them to have to experience-- experience much more of that. I didn't want to bring it up. It's like the elephant in the room, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

What were you concerned about from that?

Pfc. Manning

I was also concerned that-- that they might end my-- they might secure my visits, and say that I did something wrong, because-- it was understood that you weren't really suppose to talk about what's going in the facility.

I mean I don't know if that's the rule or anything, but it was generally understood that it was probably not a good idea to talk about the facility like, you know, like any specific details about it to visitors first, for both security reasons, you know, and that the whole process of everything, dates and times, and transport issues and things like that.

I didn't want to get into the-- into the details of, you know, because I figured that would be a very quick reason to end those visitations for security reasons, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. Now, why did you chose not to write a lot as far as sending out letters?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I didn't have-- I mean I was able to visit family or I was able to have family visit. I got that backwards. I couldn't leave, so I couldn't visit them, but.

So, because I was in that area, and most of my-- most of my family are in or were available to visit, I didn't see as necessary-- I didn't see it as being necessary to have to write a lot.

And then, I didn't want to facility to-- because I-- in the few time that I did write something, they would scrutinize every single word, and ask me what I meant, and if I was trying to use code words or something like that.

So, I was really-- I was really uncomfortable writing anything, because I knew the guards would go through it.

Defense (Coombs)

Another question caused me a little bit of confusion, because Major Fein asked you about you saying, 'How do I look? I am wearing glasses again.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

My understanding is you need glasses. Do you need glasses?

Pfc. Manning

I do. I wear-- I'm near sighted. I would wear contact lenses, but, you know, correctional facilities don't typically allow you to keep those, unless you don't have any other means until you can get glasses.

Defense (Coombs)

So, what he meant was, you normally wear contacts, and now you wear glasses?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. That makes sense.

Pfc. Manning

So, I asked him how I was looking, cause I just tried to avoid-- I just tried to avoid the big issues.

Defense (Coombs)

The Facebook photos. You wanted certain Facebook photos taken down or what not, what was the concern there?

Pfc. Manning

Just family and I didn't want-- I didn't want, you know, a lot of people to go through my personal photos and stuff.

I mean I didn't have a-- I didn't have a public-- I mean if you have access-- only friends or friends of friends have access to my Facebook account and I kept that-- you know-- so if you searched my name in 2009, you wouldn't be able to find my Facebook or anything like that.  

Because I didn't want people to-- I didn't want to spread to much of my pictures and things of what I was doing. And, I wanted to-- more people were having access to it, since some people that were friends, and I didn't have access to my Facebook account at this time, and I still don't.

But, I would have the person who was a friend start to copy pictures from my account-- to copy messages that were posted in 2009 or 2008 that were up there.

And, I was uncomfortable with that, but I didn't-- I didn't, because people already had exact verbatim copies of everything after that point.

Defense (Coombs)

So, when you mean you were uncomfortable with your--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, because--

Defense (Coombs)

--Facebook being out in the public?

Pfc. Manning

The public, public. Because, I mean I had-- I know-- I know that Facebook is public but, I mean, I had restrictions on my account circa 2009, and early 2010 that, you know, I even considered having somebody just delete the account.

But, it became no longer a priority, after-- after somebody had already verbatim copied everything and copied all the images and everything else. Then, I didn't see the point.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, so when somebody copied everything--

Pfc. Manning

It was too-- too late at that point.

Defense (Coombs)

--that became public then?

Pfc. Manning

Somebody was going to make-- somebody was going to make it public. And, it eventually did.

I think there is a verbatim of everything, including an entire copy of my friends list out there.

And, that was another thing. I didn't want people that-- to get targeted for being associated with me in any way, shape, or form with me.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. Now trial counsel also asked you some questions about fundraising. What was your concerns about fundraising?

Pfc. Manning

I don't know. I don't recall exactly what I was saying, but they're doing most of the-- I'm trying to keep it so they're doing most of the talking.

I don't want-- I'm not really involved in fundraising or anything like that, sir.

I mean I know that-- I know that you are getting paid, that-- that is an agreement that we have that you are getting paid, sir, so.

I don't know how exactly how that process works or whatnot, but it's working.

Defense (Coombs)

It is.

Pfc. Manning

That's what I understand.

Defense (Coombs)

That's what I understand too.

Pfc. Manning

I wasn't going flat broke was my main concern.

Defense (Coombs)

I understand.

Pfc. Manning

[Missed].

Defense (Coombs)

So, in statement's not going to the press. Trial counsel asked you questions about the fact that you told Mr. House and Mr. Fitzgibbons that you didn't want what you said to them to go to the press. Why was that?

Pfc. Manning

I didn't want, you know, I didn't want any [missed word] to really-- I mean I saw this as being a, you know, a case-- from a case standpoint, I wanted this-- I wanted a proper court-martial.

I didn't want-- the court of public opinion was not where I wanted this, you know, to all take place.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you ever give me, as your counsel, any guidance on going to the press?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. Limited. I gave you a lot actually. [laughs] I remember that I didn't want you to do much. If you-- I remember you-- you had Mr. Fitzgibbon contact you or he contacted-- I don't know how that went.

I don't recall, but just as a consulting role from what you understood, and the way I understood it was just to advise us on that. And, how certain things might look or what not.

Defense (Coombs)

Generally, what was your guidance to me about speaking to the press?

Pfc. Manning

My guidance to you. Limited and text. If it was going to be-- if it was going to be something that, you know, if [people?] read your blog, I think is-- obviously, I don't have access to a computer or the Internet, so I haven't seen it myself, but I have seen print offs and things-- was that you-- that you just post things up, and try to get as accurate as possible, and try to get to the actual topic and try to be as factual as possible, and try to be as neutral as possible, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

So, you didn't want me running to the press and making grand comments about it?

Pfc. Manning

And, making interviews and basically grandstanding is the way I would term it-- termed it to you, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Now there was some confusion over a kind of a compound question of trial counsel where mixing a couple things regarding Mr. House.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, there were apparently some statements about your overall health? For the Judge's edification, what were you concerned about regarding Mr. House's statements about how you looked and what was going on with you in the confinement facility?

Pfc. Manning

Well the-- I was-- I was worried that the facility in particular was going to use those to justify continuing the status, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

What about factually the statements that you were looking worse and worse. You were not responsive, and all that stuff?

Pfc. Manning

I tried-- I tried to convey the fact that I was stable, and that I was improving, you know, whenever I got there.

I mean in terms of being-- I mean I don't know-- I don't know how objective they were-- I mean I was-- and that was why that particular question came up because I wasn't sure if that was what he actually believed or if that he was just saying that to get press attention. [missed a few words].

Defense (Coombs)

And, obviously, you would agree that Mr. House and the other where just there trying to help you really?

Pfc. Manning

They-- maybe-- I didn't know. I didn't know for sure. I didn't-- that is why I limited my association.

I was trying to just be very careful in what I said, and how I interacted.

I mostly-- like the substantial like the conversations occurred through you.

So, my concerns and my criticism came from you in particular to them in regards to the confinement conditions and et cetera from my vantage point. I don't know if that was a confusing answer.

Defense (Coombs)

No. It made perfect sense. Thank you.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Judge Lind

Now, Pfc. Manning, I have a few questions for you.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, your Honor.

Judge Lind

In the command visit notes that the trial counsel went through with you?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, your Honor.

Judge Lind

As I went through them I looked at the 10th, the 19th, and the 23rd, and the 30th of September; the 27th of October; the 10th, 14th, 23rd, and 30th of December; and the 10th, 5th, 14th, and 20th of January; the 12th, the 11th...I'm sorry...the 4th, the 11th, the 12th, and the 23th of February; and then 2, 11, 18, and 23, and 31 March of [20]11. You check a lot of the boxes or the box is checked that you don't understand why you are on POI?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, your Honor.

Judge Lind

But, the 7th, 15th, the 21st of October and the 12th and the 26th of November, say you do.

Pfc. Manning

I'm not sure where that discrepancy comes from, but I did-- I did say that I did not understand. Most of them--

Judge Lind

Well, there's like a six week chunk were you say you do. That's what's confusing.

Pfc. Manning

Can you-- can you-- I mean what are those dates, [Ma'am?]?

Judge Lind

The chunk-- the chunk were you say you do is-- begins on the 7th of October and goes to the 26th of November--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

--absent the 7th [missed word?] of October were you say you don't understand. I think that I am a little confused as to why there is that difference?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I started to understand-- from my vantage point I understood that it was Captain Hocter's recommendation that I remain on POI.

So, I understood why that-- why I was placed on POI, and that was because Captain Hocter was making the recommendation, even though he was not making that recommendation.

That was what I understood. I did not know what the recommendations were at that time.

Judge Lind

And, what changed to make you not understand on the 10th of December?

Pfc. Manning

Through discussions with then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis and through Captain Hocter, I started to get discrepancies and I was very concerned at that point, because--

And, I started-- I mean I wasn't sure who to believe in terms of whether it was Captain Hocter that was keeping me on prevention of injury status or making recommendations to the commander to keep me on prevention of injury status or whether it was the C&A board; or whether or not it was the-- just the commander making the decision, other than that.

I did not understand.

Judge Lind

When you talked to your chain of command during these visit, I mean was it just a check the box thing or did you say, 'Hey, I don't understand why I've been here four month, six month--'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. It wasn't just a check the box.

Sometimes it was, just because-- I mean I am not going to say it wasn't a serious thing-- because, nothing would have changed between the different command visits.

So, since I had an understanding with Captain Casamatta that, you know, 'Hey, I'm on-- I'm on prevention of injury status and I would like to get off,' but--

Judge Lind

Did you ever ask him to help you?

Pfc. Manning

I did, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Did he?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I wasn't sure what he could do.

I mean, he's-- he's in the Army-- on the Army side of the chain of command and he was my company commander.

I didn't get the impression that it was-- I mean I always thought that he was looking out for my best interests and-- and following up on whenever I had concerns or something, he would follow up on it.

And, I would get-- I would get these communications-- I think I was getting his communications with Mr. Coombs about that as well that the command was, you know, still raising the concern through their chain of command.

I don't-- I think there was a particular incident where-- and I don't-- I don't have personal knowledge of it, but where Captain Casamatta was talking to the Battalion commander and to the-- I think he went directly to Colonel Coffman about the status [missed word], you Honor.

Judge Lind

Did he ever say anything to members of the Brig personnel and ask them to [missed a few words]--

Pfc. Manning

They always-- they were always at the physical Brig itself, and they would talk to the guards behind me, and they would sometimes talk to-- to the DBS or the Quantico Brig commander, whoever that was at the time, whether it was Chief Warrant Officer Two Barnes or Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart.

But, I mean I don't know what was in these conversations.

Judge Lind

So, at any time did Captain Casamatta or anybody in your chain of command come back to you and say, 'I talked to Chief Averhart, and he told me that based on these following considerations that this is the reason that you're still on POI'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. I had talked to him, and he had said that he had was-- he was speaking to the Brig staff about these issues every time, and he was looking into them.

And, he kept on looking. And, he kept on looking into it, and he was being cognizant of what was going on.

I listened. That was the understanding that I had. In particular with-- with Captain Casamatta and First Sergeant Williams. I mean they were quote 'tracking the issue' unquote.

Judge Lind

You arrived at Quantico at the end of July--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, you Honor.

Judge Lind

--you are on 'suicide risk' at that point...

Pfc. Manning

Yes, you Honor.

Judge Lind

--what kind of clothing do you have at that point, at night?

Pfc. Manning

At night I have underwear, T Shirt, and I don't recall if I had socks or not. I think I did have socks.

Judge Lind

What happens at reveille?

Pfc. Manning

I would have-- I would be given-- after reveille would be announced-- some period after that, whether it was during five of twenty minutes-- I don't recall the exact number, because there was a hygiene call with that-- then I would have-- I would be given either a duty uniform-- I would be given their duty uniform, because I didn't have sweats or anything at that time.

Judge Lind

When they come-- where I am going with this is-- when they come to the count what are you doing and what are you wearing?

Pfc. Manning

I was wearing underwear, socks, flip flops-- and I'm recalling this a lot easier now.

It's a better question I think-- and I had a POI-- and I was authorized to wear and expected to wear a POI blanket over-- because I was just wearing underwear or just underwear and a shirt, your Honor.

Judge Lind

So, you're wearing underwear and a shirt, and you are authorized to put the POI blanket over you?

Pfc. Manning

During count. Yes, your Honor.

Judge Lind

Whom-- how do you know you were authorized to do that?

Pfc. Manning

They instructed me that it was-- that it was okay, because I was on suicide risk in that for a particular time, and that they were aware of that, and that I should-- that I should cover up, and that, you know, they didn't want to be demeaning or anything like.

Judge Lind

You testified earlier that during reveille everyone had to stand first at parade rest, then at attention, then at parade rest--

Pfc. Manning

Right.

Judge Lind

--are you suppose to-- how do you do that with a blanket? Or did they allow you to put the blanket...

Pfc. Manning

It was--

Judge Lind

--or they did allow you to put the blanket and whatever and hold it over your front?

Pfc. Manning

That-- that is the position, so. You were-- I would usually-- I would typically have it covered and holding it, your Honor.

Judge Lind

Let the record reflect that the witness has his arms over his chest.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, so it would be covered and then my legs would be spread during parade rest-- parade rest and that. And, then I would bring them together for attention, but still with the arms over the chest, your Honor.

Judge Lind

When you go to POI what do you got at night?

Pfc. Manning

I think I was given a-- I don't exactly recall but I think I had-- there were handling instructions, but I think I was authorized a part of shorts.

So, I didn't-- that mooted the issue of having to have a blanket for-- for standing by for count and count, your Honor.

Judge Lind

Alright. 3 March the morning of-- walk me through from the beginning.

Pfc. Manning

On 3 March they announced count or they announced--

Judge Lind

Before we get there let me just ask a couple of questions. How many guards are in the Brig right around before reveille?

Pfc. Manning

I have no idea your Honor.

Judge Lind

Or in the observation room?

Pfc. Manning

In the observation room, there was usually between two and four Marines Corps personnel.

Judge Lind

At night?

Pfc. Manning

At night. At day. Usually, it was staff [missed a few words].

Judge Lind

I'm sorry. Let me direct you back to the 3 March.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, your Honor. So, they announced, 'Reveille Reveille Reveille' in the housing unit, then 'Stand by for count.'

I was not given hygiene-- We did not do a hygiene call. So, it was not a 'shaving before count.' So, then I-- I stand up, and I don't have any clothes. I just have the POI blanket, but, I don't have flip flops. So, it's just stand at the front of my cell as normal, but with-- at a modified position at parade rest.

Defense (Coombs)

Wait a minute. You don't have a POI blanket? Am, I confused?

Pfc. Manning

I have two POI blankets. So I have-- I don't have clothes.

Judge Lind

Okay. Would you be standing the same way that you would be standing as you described earlier when you had your underwear?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. Yes, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

With the blanket wrapped?

Pfc. Manning

Wrapped around, yes.

Judge Lind

Around you, okay. Go on.

Pfc. Manning

So, then I would have the blanket wrapped around me, and then I was instructed-- And, then-- I mean I don't exactly know how-- how it was worded, but-- but the door was cracked-- and the door cracked open and-- and--

Judge Lind

What door?

Pfc. Manning

The door to the observation booth opened.

The guard inside then asked something to the effect of like, 'Detainee Manning, is that how you stand at parade rest?'

I wasn't sure how to answer that question in terms of both: I couldn't see really-- I mean I didn't have my glasses and I couldn't see rank or if that person standing at the door. I believe-- I believe that the person was sitting down.

Judge Lind

Did you recognize the voice?

Pfc. Manning

I did not, your Honor. They-- from the observation booth they sound mostly the same, unless it's something over the intercom. They-- the male voices sound pretty- It echoes. They sound really similar.

Judge Lind

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

And, I don't recall-- I recall being confused about that-- about the rank in particular.

And, then I said-- I tried to word the question something to the effect of, 'Excuse me, Lance Corporal,' or 'I'm not sure what you are trying to ask.'

That was the gist of what I was trying to ask. I don't recall the exact phrasing.

And, then the phrase-- the statement was said again. And, then I-- I think I asked. I recall asking, 'Should I put the blanket-- Do you want me to put the blanket down?' And then there being a, 'Yes,' or something like that. So, I set the blanket down and went to parade rest, your Honor.

Judge Lind

What happened after that?

Pfc. Manning

Then they went through count. Or they announce-- they announced--

Judge Lind

Oh, I'm sorry. Was there a response to that?

Pfc. Manning

No. I just-- Well, the door closed. So, the-- the door was [missed word] only cracked open.

Judge Lind

When did the door closed?

Pfc. Manning

When did the door close? After I set the blanket down, your Honor.

Judge Lind

Was there a response? You asked, 'Do you want me to put the blanket down?' and [missed a few words] respond?

Pfc. Manning

I set the blanket down. Before, I set the blanket down, I think-- I think, yeah-- I think there was a, 'Yes. Detainee Manning--,' or something to-- I don't recall if it was just a, "Yes,' or if it was a-- or if it was a verbatim instruction [missed a few words].

Judge Lind

Okay. So, what happens next?

Pfc. Manning

Then-- because-- I mean we're standing-- we're standing by for count-- That was the status that we were in at that time. And, then as the Duty Brig Supervisor comes near special quarters, from the view point of the guards--

And, I am inferring this from just experience of being there--

Then, they unlock the door and then one of the Marines comes out on the opposite side of the observation booth of the other side--

So the door opens on the opposite side where the other two cells are-- are at, and then announces to the entire housing unit, 'Special Quarters Atten-hun' or 'Attention.'

And then the Duty Brig Supervisor comes in and goes to-- goes to my cell and then does the knife hand move and then walks on.

Judge Lind

Okay. You say the Duty Brig Supervisor comes in. What do they do for count when they go by your cell? Do they-- Do they face your cell? Do they walk in a straight line past your cell?

Pfc. Manning

They-- They walk with a sense of urgency past the cell, but they stop, they slow down for each cell and then they do sort of--

Depending on who it was-- I remember this particular-- this particular morning that it was-- I couldn't see who was it was.

I didn't have my glasses on, but there was a knife hand movement, and then moved-- and then continued on down--

Judge Lind

Let me see what a knife hand movement is [missed a few words].

Pfc. Manning

Like that. [demonstrated with his hand]

Judge Lind

Like you are cutting a cake?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, your Honor. So-- [demonstrates with his hand] Towards-- Towards-- this end.

Judge Lind

And, are the lights on?

Pfc. Manning

The lights are on, yes. Both in-- outside the cell, throughout special quarters, and inside my cell, yes.

Judge Lind

And, what happens after the knife movement?

Pfc. Manning

Then-- I mean-- He is still walking but slows down for that movement, and then continues walking very quickly-- Increases the speed back to the--

Judge Lind

And, what happens next, what do you do?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I wait for the command. As he goes to the other side of this horseshoe arrangement, and exists in what they call bravo row door--

Which was the alternate side on the opposite side of the observation booth, and then the guard announces, 'Parade rest,' again, and then you stand, and then I stood back at parade rest until-- until I guess they announce, 'All clear,' over the radio, and then we fall out.

And, then we walk back to [missed a few words], and then we fall out, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Okay. And then moving on then to the morning of 4 March, what happened?

Pfc. Manning

4 March. That's the morning after this. You know, what I recall at least-- I mean I don't know-- I don't recall how many days this occurred, but I--

Whenever I was getting out, 'Reveille Reveille Reveille,' at this-- at this point in time.

They had my clothing all ready set up on the feed tray of the cell. So, as soon as they announced-- as soon as they announce, 'Reveille Reveille Reveille,' I am able to grab my clothing.

Put it on. Put my glasses on. Then, whenever-- Then, I'm-- I'm semi dressed by the time--

Or I might be completely dressed by the time they announce, 'Stand by for count,' your Honor.

Judge Lind

Okay. 5th of March?

Pfc. Manning

5th of March. I don't recall if-- I don't recall if it was two days or one day between whenever I had this, but on either the 5th or the 6th of March, I did not receive my clothing on the feed tray at reveille.

So, I sat sort of Indian style with the POI blanket until they announced, 'Stand by for count.'

And, then given the guidance that I had, that I understood from that, I stood by at the front of the cell back at parade rest without the POI blanket, just like the other day-- Just like the 3rd of March.

But, before count was announced, one of the-- I mean the guard had quickly placed and handed me clothing.

So, that I was able to dress and I was dresses just in time for whenever they announced for-- Just in time for them to announce, 'Attention.'-- 'Special Quarter's Attention.'

Judge Lind

So, if I understand your testimony then there is one morning that you're standing naked at 'Attention.'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, Ma'am. Completely, for that entire 'count'. Yes, your Honor.

Judge Lind

Okay. So, you testified earlier that during hygiene call your given a razor to shave?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.

Judge Lind

Is that true on suicide risk?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. It's true for all status.

Judge Lind

Do they watch you while you are doing that? Or did they--

Pfc. Manning

Sometimes. Sometimes.

Judge Lind

--just leave it with you in the cell?

Pfc. Manning

Sometimes they would-- Yeah, they would most of the time-- They would just hand-- They would just leave it in my feed tray, and then, you know, I would go, and they would leave.

They would get the razor and the shave cream out of the cell adjacent to me, where I have my hygiene items, and they would place it on the feed tray or hand it to me, if I was standing-- If I was standing there, they would just hand it to me.

And, then I would put the shaving cream on my face, shave, and then return, and place the razor and the shaving cream back into-- Back onto the feed tray, you Honor.

Judge Lind

What kind of razor was it?

Pfc. Manning

It was a-- I remember-- I remember I had a MACH3-- So a two blazed razor at one point, and then I had a Gillette Fusion at one point. So, five bladed razor.

Judge Lind

Where you told at any time that Gunnery Sergeant Blenis didn't think that you were-- felt that you were being pretty quiet during-- in arrival September, October-- that you weren't being very proactive?

Pfc. Manning

I mean, I didn't know-- I didn't know how much interaction-- I don't know what he means by that?

Judge Lind

Did he tell you at any time during September or October that, you know, 'You're not really talking very much. I'm concerned?'

Pfc. Manning

Not that he was concerned. He certainly-- He certainly like, 'You're pretty quiet.'

And, I think I might have-- I think I might have explained to him that, you know, 'I don't have a lot to say.'

I mean, 'I'm not really doing a whole lot. There is not a lot going on,' you know.

We talked. Then, we had some small talk on occasions. We used to talk about current events, sports, [missed word] theory, but--

Judge Lind

Cause that is what is confusing me slightly too is you testified yesterday that you were very extroverted person who wants to be around people--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, I do.

Judge Lind

--then why didn't you talk when you had the opportunity to talk to him?

Pfc. Manning

Well, it's a different-- I mean, and I did talk to him.

I felt that I was talking to him. You know, I like to talk. I mean, I like to talk [missed a few words] everything.

I get energy from-- from being around people or group of people, but it was just this sort of one on one conversation, and I felt that we were-- I felt that we were having kind of a decent conversation.

Sometimes-- Sometimes I just didn't have a whole lot to talk about or I was just out-- out of energy from being bored all day, and not really having a lot to do.

And, you know, we would talk about things that were not necessarily that interesting to me. We didn't have a lot of similar interests, me and now Master Sergeant Blenis.

We didn't have a-- we had some-- we had some overlaps, in terms of college basketball, and things like that.

But, we didn't have a lot of similar interests on certain things, at things on what I could gather.

Judge Lind

When was the first time that you remember-- You testified earlier that you tried to handle this informally in the beginning.

Did you ever talk to Gunnery Sergeant Blenis or anybody else at the Brig about, 'What can I do to make you all think that I am stable and I'm not--?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, yes. Correct. Correct. I don't know when I started.

I mean in the very beginning I wanted to convey the fact that whenever I arrived at Quantico Base Brig in July 2010-- I wanted the staff to know that, you know, that I was fine.

I wanted to get off of the status, and I wanted to find out how I could do that to [missed a few words].

You know, enjoy an increased quality of life form my vantage point, your Honor.

Judge Lind

The first time that you opted to appear in front of the C&A board in January--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, your Honor.

Judge Lind

--why didn't you go earlier and try to make your case then?

Pfc. Manning

It was a lot of-- I mean-- There was a lot of different-- There's a lot of different factors involved with that.

I mean one, I thought it was-- For the longest period of time I thought it was-- I thought Captain Hocter was the person that was making-- that was keeping me on.

And, that was my understanding at least for the summer and autumn of 2010 that Captain Hocter was the-- was the person who really made that call as to my status, your Honor.

Judge Lind

And that was your understanding for the Fall of 2010?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, your Honor.

Judge Lind

When did that become not your understanding?

Pfc. Manning

When I started to ask-- ask question to Captain Hocter along the lines of, 'Why?'

I remember I asked him specifically what- what he was recommending. I had not asked what he was recommending to him. So, at a certain point I did, and it was at that point, that he told me that he was recommending that I be taken off.

Then, I started talking to Gunnery Sergeant Blenis about the fact that Captain Hocter told me that-- because Gunnery Sergeant Blenis was telling- was telling me that it was the quote 'docs' that were keeping me on 'prevention of injury status-- that were making that recommendation after all.

Judge Lind

Okay. So, Gunnery-- Let me make sure I understand. So, Gunnery Sergeant Blenis was telling you that it was the doctors that were keeping you on POI status?

Pfc. Manning

He would call them the quote 'docs'. I mean, I don't know if he's referring to just Captain Hocter or other medical personnel.

But, he would call them the 'docs' or the 'psychs'.

Judge Lind

Did he or anyone else explain to you how the C&A process worked?

Pfc. Manning

I didn't not really get into the details of the C&A board process. I just assumed that everything was working in order and that I didn't need to be involved.

I-- I didn't feel like-- I thought that-- that improvement overtime would be enough for them to make a recommendation or not-- or for somebody to make a decision that eventually I learned it was the Brig commander that made that decision but--

Judge Lind

And, my last question to you will be, when in the process did you- did you-- or did you ever come to believe that improvement over time wouldn't change it?

Pfc. Manning

Well, there was a-- there were two times that I had come to that realization separately-- because of the change of command at the facility or at the Brig.

So, after the January 18th incident which I was placed on suicide risk status after I had talked to Captain Hocter and Captain-- Captain Moore on that day.

I felt the sense that I was not going to get off of this status ever, as long as-- or off of POI status in particular, even though I was on SR status that at some point would come off of that, and just go back onto POI status.

I was convinced that as long as-- as Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart is the commander of the facility that-- and I knew that he was- he was going to have a change over soon, so I was-- I was convinced that at that point nothing until the change in command-- or whatever the Marines Corps calls it-- took place that I would continue to be on the POI or SR status, a precaution status.

Judge Lind

Any follow up questions based on that?

Pfc. Manning

--Oh. I-- there was the second.

Judge Lind

Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Pfc. Manning

So, the second portion was after the March 3rd incident I was-- after the underwear comment that I made and the flip flops that I made to Master Sergeant Papakie and to-- to Chief Warrant Officer Two Barnes-- or that I made to Master Sergeant Papakie and then it was relayed to Chief Warrant Officer Two Barnes.

After that-- a few days after that I did not think that-- that I would-- I pretty much lost hope in the fact that the new-- this new commander was going to change [missed a few words].

Judge Lind

Thank you. Any follow up based on that?

Defense (Coombs)

No, your Honor.

Prosecution (Fein)

No, your Honor, but the Government does request a quick follow up to issue that defense had elicited on direct.

Judge Lind

Okay.

Prosecution (Fein)

Private First Class Manning just in reference to a question that Mr. Coombs had asked you about when you met with your family member in visitors booths, why you withheld certain information from them

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

This is in reference to that. That question. You testified...

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You testified that you were concerned with your family members worrying about you?

Pfc. Manning

Definitely, sir

Prosecution (Fein)

Were you concerned about your friends worrying about you too?

Pfc. Manning

Of course, but I mean, I didn't really have-- I think friend wise I would call Mr. Clark a friend, so yes, in that sense, Mr. Clark in particular.

For many of my-- for many-- for many of the people that I considered friends did not come with-- to visit me, while I was at Quantico Base Brig, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And so what about-- and then, were you also then worried about what the media consultants or the PR experts would think when they came and visited you and you didn't talk to them about it?

Pfc. Manning

I don't really-- I mean they-- they were-- they were there.

I was more-- I was more concerned about having-- having sort of-- because I knew that they-- no matter what they were going to talk to whoever about whatever.

I mean they have-- they have First Amendment rights to do that.

So, they can speak to whoever and whatever, and-- but, I wanted them to-- I wanted them to-- I wanted to hear from them, and see them personally.

So, that's why I sort of had them on the visitor list, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then, as far as what you talked about specifically about Mr. House, for instance--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--you were concerned about what he would- was saying in the media?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. And, about how that would be perceived specifically by Quantico Base Brig personnel, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And-- and, you would agree that at some point, you realized that what was being put out in the media wasn't necessarily accurate?

Pfc. Manning

I would say so, yes, from their standpoint-- I mean that's why I had-- that's why we arranged-- why me and Mr. Coombs arranged for these blog postings is because I wanted-- that was the-- we were really trying [to?] hold, you know, the middle ground, and try to get just the facts--

As many facts as possible, and not, you know, [missed a few words].

Prosecution (Fein)

So there was information from people who did visit you being put out to the media that was false about your conditions?

Pfc. Manning

That I believe could be-- that was not necessarily accurate or that was portrayed in a slanted light. I'm a fact-- I am more of a scientific person. I like things to be more factual, and as objective-- I mean as-- There's gonna be some subjectivity in this. That's inevitable in the world, you know.

In this [missed word] especially, you know. To try to put as many objective facts on the table as possible, and to counter a lot of the wildness, is what I was particularly concerned about.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, thank you. No further questions your Honor.

Judge Lind

Okay.

Defense (Coombs)

[Missed but in the negative], your Honor.

Judge Lind

Pfc. Manning please return to your chair.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, your Honor.

 

Judge Lind

Alright. What's the order of march next?

Prosecution (Fein)

Sir-- or excuse me Ma'am, if we may-- if we may fifteen minute recess the United States will call and at that time coordinate the phone call for the [missed a few words].

Judge Lind

Alright. Any objection?

Defense (Coombs)

No, your Honor.

Judge Lind

The Court is in recess until 25 after 16 hundred or 4 o'clock.

ALL RISE

ALL RISE

Judge Lind

Please be seated. This Article 39(a) Session is called to order. Let the record reflect all parties present when the Court last recessed, are again present in Court. Captain Morrow?

Prosecution (Morrow)

The Government calls [telephonic] Lt. Col Robert Russel. Lt. Col. Russel?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Prosecution (Morrow)

This is Captain Morrow.

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Prosecution (Morrow)

You are on speaker phone in the court-martial of United States versus Pfc. Manning.

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Okay.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Are you alone?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Are you able to speak freely?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Prosecution (Morrow)

I'm going to swear you in, okay?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Okay.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Do you swear or affirm that the evidence you give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

I do.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Sir, you are Lt. Col. Robert Russel, staff psychiatrist Joint Task Force GTMO?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

That's correct.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Sir, how long have you been in the Army?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Fourteen and a half years.

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, can you briefly describe for the Court, your various positions in the Army?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

[Missed two words] Joint Task Force Psychiatrist at Naval base Guantanamo Bay, then [missed word] psychiatrist-- staff psychiatrist at Walter Reed, Afghanistan regional command psychiatrist; Afghanistan Theater Mental Health Consultant-- [missed a few words] psychiatrist, and [missed word] training in child and adolescent psych, and I have some awards in public health.

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, what about your educational background, sir?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

I went to Des Moines University for Doctor of Osteopathy degree, and [missed word] Honor Society-- Sigma Sigma Phi and then did residency in preventive medicine and general psychiatry in a fellowship in child and adolescent psychiatry.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Thank you, sir. I want to talk about your connection to this case. Are you familiar with Pfc. Manning?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Prosecution (Morrow)

How so, sir?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

I was asked to see Pfc. Manning twice as a treating psychiatrist.

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, who asked you?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

His regular treating psychiatrist, Col. Malone in his absence he requested my assistance when he wasn't available.

Prosecution (Morrow)

So, you were essentially just filling in for Col. Malone.

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

That is correct.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Sir, do you have the-- well, let me back up. How many times did you meet with Pfc. Manning?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Twice.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Sir, do you have the documents we sent you over email handy?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

I do.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Can you grab those please?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

I have them.

Judge Lind

And, explain for the record what those are?

Prosecution (Morrow)

Ma'am, I am referring to two documents in enclosure 21, and I have copies for the Court, and we have them marked as well.

Judge Lind

[Missed a few words] enclosure 21 to your?

Prosecution (Fein)

To the motion.

Judge Lind

To the motion.

Prosecution (Morrow)

But we can have these as an appellate exhibit. Sir, I want to talk about your 6 April [2011] visit with Pfc. Manning.

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Okay.

Prosecution (Morrow)

What was your-- as you talked about with Pfc. Manning-- what was your general routine when you arrived at the Brig?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Prior to seeing Pfc. Manning-- I talked to Col. Malone about any treatment issues just to provide continuity of care. I talked to the Brig staff-- the Brig commander to see if there was any information that help me do my assessment.

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, who was that, sir?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

You know, I can't remember the Brig commander's name.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Does Chief Warrant Officer Barnes sound familiar?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes. That is the correct name.

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, so-- after you talked with Chief Warrant Officer Barnes, what did you do next?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

After I talked to Chief Barnes and then I would-- have an interview with Pfc. Manning-- and talked.

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, how long did the 6 April 2011 interview last?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

I recall it was it was probably under an hour-- maybe a little bit less or a little bit more. I can't specifically remember.

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, after-- sorry excuse me.

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

That's all, sir.

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, after the meeting what would you do?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Spoke to the Brig commander to bring up any-- certain safety concerns. To clarify observations made by Pfc. Manning.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Sir, I want to talk about your remarks on the 6 April 2011 form. You said that the 'service member's emotional and behavioral presentation significantly varies from that observed by myself and by the facility staff.' Can you explain that please?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

When I would interview Pfc. Manning he's, you know, very social and very intelligent-- you know, [missed a few works] an authority, but he didn't seem depressed or aloof-- or avoiding eye contact-- a very, very engaged person.

When I would see the Brig staff they would describe for me a completely different person-- flat affect, very withdrawal, poor eye contact, who declined visitation-- rec, other opportunities like that.

I got the impression that his presentation varied-- and could be dependent upon the person with whom he was conversing. So, the person I interviewed did not seem depressed-- but, the person that the Brig commander described would-- I would say-- seem pretty depressed. So, the presentation could be varied.

Prosecution (Morrow)

And so, difference in presentation to different individuals-- is that concerning from a psychiatric perspective?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

It is. I mean it's, you know, [missed word] or not consistent. I don't know what the motivation was behind that.

I only met him twice. But, it seemed clear that the presentation was varied from one person to the next.   [Missed a few words], I would interview him, I wouldn't be so concerned. But, understandably, I could understand how the Brig commander would be, if her observations on a day to day basis-- not just one hour weekly visit.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Sir, you also stated that 'due diligence for self-harm behavior is not unreasonable given his change in behavior. Necessary reassurance of safety is difficult to achieve if service member choses not to communicate with facility staff.'

Can you describe that please or just what you meant?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes. [Missed.] I mean, he normally-- his baseline behavior was very withdrawn-- [missed a few words] did participate, you know, in [missed word] activities or opportunities to-- but that week the Brig commander expressed more concern above that.

I can't remember specifically what [missed word]-- he might have even received some negative news and she was concern that-- even-- even compared to his baseline-- he was even more withdrawn-- less talkative-- almost no eye contact.

Given his history of attempting suicide at a time of significant stress-- at that time, I wasn't sure if-- if this current stressor was also going to, you know, cause him stress or difficulty and lead to suicidal thoughts.

So, it seemed to be an acute situation-- just for that week. So, that is what I put that comment in there. So, that is what his changes in behavior were to [missed a few words].

Prosecution (Morrow)

At that time sir, did you recommend he remain on prevention of injury status?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

I did at that time, because of the factors-- acute change in behavior, which was preceded by -- I believe he was by negative [missed a few words] or something like that--   I can't remember--

But given-- given that change that I guess-- I concluded-- it's difficult to assess cases when the individual isn't engaging with-- with the Brig staff, and there is no way they can ascertain his safety, if he is not communicating [missed a few words], you know-- applying some reassurance either vocally-- verbally or just, you know, in behavior-- you know, taking advantage of recreation activities or whatnot, so.

So, I can see understandably the Brig [missed word] would have some-- I say reasonable concern given that, and not being able to get any reassurance from Pfc. Manning that he was safe-- that, you know-- I talked in the language of the Brig commander-- she [missed word] genuine concern for him and, you know-- I indicated that it was probably be best to put him on POI and then reassess him the next time.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Okay, sir. I want to move to the 15 April 2011 meeting.

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Okay.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Sir, is it fair to say that Pfc. Manning-- well, I will just let you describe-- what was the difference between Pfc. Manning during this visit from your perspective?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

From my perspective, none.

I mean, I thought he was again very-- very sociable-- very intelligent-- very engaging-- very bright individual.

I saw , from my perspective, no difference from one interview to the next.   What was discussed mostly in that interview was follow up from the previous interview-- and during that, you know, of course, [missed word] for Pfc. Manning and, you know, are these too restrictive-- if he had the opportunity for rec-- I think I can't remember specifically, there is something about writing and Pfc. Manning's perspective on that there were many obstacles or a lot of paperwork that had to be done in order to enjoy those opportunities afforded-- like recreation and it just wasn't worth the effort.

So, following the first visit I talked to the Brig commander and just asked-- you, know, is it true if it is difficult-- are we adding unreasonable things that aren't expected from [missed two words] of the detainee to do anything-- and it was explained to me, and this is just recall-- that I believe to ensure his rec activity he just had to fill out like a one page paper that wasn't very arduous and very simply done -- and their perspective, that he was just not choosing to do that.

So, the second visit I gave him that feedback-- if I wanted use recreational activities I remember saying 'April in northern Virginia, it's a wonderful time of year. I don't know why he doesn't want to go outside and enjoy the sunshine and just relax,' and you know, I reassured him that I talked to the commander and that it is very simple for him to do that.

And, you know, I also recall that the Brig commander stated to me that she was actually affording him, I believe more rec than she normally would for detainees-- which I think, you know, she expressed a lot of frustration, because she was I believe trying to provide [missed a few words] Pfc. Manning.

So, we kind of talked about these obstacles as just a new thing. He didn't have to just stay in his cell, because there are other opportunities afforded by the-- We never got past that barrier-- I'm not quite sure what his motivation was.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Well, what did-- did Pfc. Manning say anything-- what did he say, when you presented the--

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

It wasn't really a response back. It was more, just 'Well we can't do this, 'but then it really wasn't talk about as much in a typical discussion or you know anything positive or that-- that's good news or I'll take advantage of that. It was-- the discussion didn't continue.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Did he provide an explanation of why he felt the forms were too onerous?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

No, I didn't go into it any more than that. I just-- I just wanted him to know that-- you know, I checked on it.

I wanted to make sure that, you know, things weren't unreasonable-- and that meant reasonable would be relative to a typical detainee-- and make sure that I didn't find that, you know.

And in fact the contrary, I found the Brig commander actually very concerned-- you know, regarding [missed a few words] and take advantage of rec call opportunities and I am pretty sure-- you know, she said she would afford him more than the typical detainee.

But, you know, he declined.   So, I took that as more-- at that point, I realized though, that this is more than an active choice for whatever reason-- you know, motivation he had.

To me at that point it seemed like well, he knows he can do that if he wants to, but he choses not to so, I'm not going to push him or badger him to do that. But, I do remember several times try to tell him how nice it was outside and you know, it only lasts a month or two and then it starts getting humid-- and, just try to convince him to get some fresh air. And, I really don't remember much more from that interview the last time.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Sir, do you-- did you recommend prevention of injury again?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

You know--

Prosecution (Morrow)

--or did you say that it wasn't-- well, let me-- let me ask you this: You said that-- excuse me one second, sir.

You said, 'Brig providing reasonable restrictions which do not cause any mental anguish. Discussed plan with staff.' What did you mean by that?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Well that-- that kind of speaks to what I just previously commented to-- that, you know, I felt that there are varying perspectives of-- Pfc. Manning had a perception that-- that there were these extra demands placed upon him so he couldn't do these things.

And then, I found that actually these demands were not [missed word] unreasonable and seemed to be consistent-- so that was a reference for that.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Okay, sir. Thank you very much. I believe defense counsel will have some questions for you as well as the military Judge.

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Alright.

Defense (Coombs)

Lt. Col. Russel, this is David Coombs. I just have a few questions for you. Okay?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Okay.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, as you said the first time you saw Pfc. Manning was on 6 April 2011? Correct?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you did not evaluate him before that day?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

You know, I actually went there-- you know, I forgot about his. I actually went there one previous time with Col. Malone, because he wanted to show me where he would go, and paperwork, and things like that. But I didn't know-- let me just backtrack. I actually saw him three times. I saw him once with Col. Malone-- but I don't remember when that was. Col. Malone wrote that note that day.

Defense (Coombs)

Right. But, you did not evaluate him on that day, correct?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

No, correct.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so 6 April 2011 was the first time that you had in fact evaluated Pfc. Manning?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, prior to the evaluation you spoke with Col. Malone in order for continuity of care?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And Col. Malone was obviously telling you that he was obviously recommending that Pfc. Manning-- well actually what he was saying was that there was no clinical need for Pfc. Manning to be on POI?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

So, prior to your evaluation-- you show up, you speak to the Brig commander?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, the representations made by the Brig commander varied significantly from the observations that you were making talking to Pfc. Manning?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

The staff told you that they noted and increase in social isolation-- paucity of words during verbal interaction or eye contact, is that correct?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you were looking at Pfc. Manning seeing an entirely different picture?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

What documentation did Chief Barnes give you in order to show you that they were making these observations?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

I don't remember. You know, I know verbal.

I can't remember if she-- if she show me charts and forms-- or she [missed a few words] because I do remember this [missed word].

Defense (Coombs)

And, you said that there were some recreational activities that Pfc. Manning was not availing himself of-- did you know that he was receiving one hour of rec call everyday?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

I can't remember the specifics.

Defense (Coombs)

And, did you know that if he refused the rec call for some reason they would document that?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

I-- I assume that, but I did not know that.

Defense (Coombs)

Would it surprise you that he was only authorized one hour of rec each day?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Well, again I can't have know the specifics of the SOP for the Brig and Quantico.

Defense (Coombs)

What additional recreational activities did Chief Barnes tell you that Pfc. Manning was not availing himself of?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

This a recall-- but I remember writing, paper and pencil or taking-- if he wished to write-- to do that-- it's was very, it's been a while, I can't remember -- but I remember asking him the writing-- he could do it with certain restrictions-- -- if there's-- if they were affording him to read books, but if I recall-- he wanted to make notations in the books in order for him to be able to-- he would like somehow keep track-- a way of making notes or something and somehow that was a conflict with the Brig's SOPs, and [missed a few words] and didn't have [missed a few words] -- again, I don't remember detail-- but I remember there were certain things they were reporting Pfc. Manning wished to do it a certain way-- and the Brig didn't agree.

So instead of just complying and doing it how the Brig wished, he chose just not to do it at all.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

It was something-- reading and writing and paper-- and things like that.

Defense (Coombs)

So, not necessarily something involving going outside and getting sunshine.

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Well, that is one of rec activities. Yes, going outside and getting sunshine.

Defense (Coombs)

No, I understand that was a rec activity, but that was not an issue where Pfc. Manning where Pfc. Manning was saying, 'I'm not going to avail myself of the opportunity to get some sunshine.'

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Well-- I mean, it was specifically the first time that he [missed words] they made it too difficult-- the Brig made it too difficult to do that before-- and then what I clarified them-- the Brig commander followed up the subsequent week.

I didn't see any-- he didn't [missed a few words] or any regulation that had anything to do with that. It was just-- it was normal-- it seems more a conscious choice, not to do that in the conversation.

Defense (Coombs)

Dr. Russel is it possible that you are memory of that isn't quite accurate if he was permitted one hour of recreation call each day, and availed himself of that opportunity?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Well, I mean-- again, I can't specifically remember the amount of hours that he would be allowed on rec.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. Well, let's just go to some of the stuff that you've got documentation of. You-- you basically evaluated Pfc. Manning, you noted that he did appear to be of normal behavior?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

He was fully alert?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Fully oriented?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

Normal mood and affect?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

Clear thinking process?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Normal thought content?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

[Makes affirmative sound, 'mm-hmm']

Defense (Coombs)

And, you opined that Pfc. Manning's mental disorder was stable?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

You indicated he was a low risk for suicide and self-harm?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, 'low' on this form, is the lowest thing that you can circle, right?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, low in this regard means, like, you know, like a person in the general population-- he is no worse, or no better of a risk of committing suicide or self-harm, correct?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, you also indicated that you believed he only needed routine examination?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Which was weekly.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. And, you indicated in this form, that he needed to be segregated from the general population? See that?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, why did you fill that out at that way?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Under the Brig commander was very concerned for his safety fro other detainees.

Defense (Coombs)

So, that was based upon what the Brig commander was telling you?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

Now you state that you could not recommend changing his POI status given his behavioral change, and you were basing his behavioral change on what the Brig commander was telling you?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

So, you were trusting what she was relaying to you was accurate and truthful?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, as part of your evaluations, did you review the prior evaluations of Col. Malone and his predecessor, Captain Hocter?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, were you seeing anything in there that indicated that Pfc. Manning was withdrawing from people or beginning to no longer converse with the staff?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

No. I mean-- I remember notes of those type of-- actually I think I had a conversation-- but in notes, no. I have never seen that.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, were you aware that Col. Malone saw Pfc. Manning two days after you did the first time-- you saw him on 6 April and Col. Malone saw him on 8 April?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you are aware that Col. Malone opined at that point the mental disorder was resolved?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you were aware then, I guess, at that point that Col. Malone also opined that Pfc. Manning did not need to be segregated from the general population?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

I don't recall that.

Defense (Coombs)

Would you agree that Col. Malone has a longer treatment history with Pfc. Manning than you did?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, obviously he also had a longer history of dealing with the Quantico staff and the personalities there, then you?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, you saw Pfc. Manning again as you say on 15 April 2011?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, on that date, he appeared to be normal to you again?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Fully alert?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Fully oriented?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Normal mood and affect?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Clear thinking process?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Normal thought content?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you opined that Pfc. Manning's mental disorder was stable?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

You indicated that he was a low risk again for suicide or self-harm?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you indicated that he was a low risk for violence?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

Again, you only believed that he needed routine examination?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And you stated that Pfc. Manning was, quote 'not a danger to self or others' unquote?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

In this evaluation you entered 'NA defers to the command on segregation'? Why?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Well, it had to do with a detainee. They were concerned with his safety-- I guess, so, [missed a few words]-- I would defer to them for that decision.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so clinically you weren't seeing anything that would require Pfc. Manning to be segregated?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

No.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you ask Pfc. Manning about limiting his interaction with the staff?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

I know we had several conversations-- but, I can't recall what.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you aware that Pfc. Manning was being stripped of his underwear at night at the time you were evaluating him?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, did you know that, that was due to him having a conversation with the member of the staff where they believed that one of his statements he indicated an intent to self-harm?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

I recall that, yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And would you agree with me that it is normal behavior to stop talking with people if you think they are looking for reasons to keep you on a particular custody status?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

No, I wouldn't necessarily agree.

Defense (Coombs)

You wouldn't agree that if you thought that your words were being used against you-- and anything you said would be held against you-- that it wouldn't be normal for a person to say, 'Maybe, I'm going to limit my interaction'?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Relative to other detainees-- I would say no.

Defense (Coombs)

Have you ever heard of learned helplessness?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And what do you know about that, doctor?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Well, it's a [missed word] conditioning where a person has difficulty self-advocating. There certain [missed word] that surrender.

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Thank you, doctor.

Judge Lind

Redirect?

Prosecution (Morrow)

Nothing, your Honor.

Judge Lind

Alright, Dr. Russel this is Col. Lind. I am the military judge. I have a few questions for you. Can you hear me?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

What is your understanding of POI status?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Well-- I can't recall the specifics at this point-- the actual or the Brig policy for what was-- took place. I can't recall-- I can remember the exact details.

Judge Lind

I guess-- I am a little confused on the recommendation on the 15th of continuing-- on the 6th and the 15th-- you recommend continuing with POI status.

At that point, I believe you testified that you were aware that Pfc. Manning underwear was being taken away from him at night? If he is a low risk of self-harm or violence, why would you recommend that continue?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

For that week the behavior changed-- so, when you looked at the difficult behavior that the Brig was observing or, you know, was noted-- the Brig commander said that she had, you know, special concerns that-- for that week-- because his behavior just seemed extreme from what she had observed in the past. So, I think that what [missed a few words] Pfc. Manning. It was just that week.

Judge Lind

So, when the Brig-- when CW2 Barnes-- the Brig commander was talking about behavior changes-- how did she describe his behavior before this change?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Not talkative. Very little interaction with the Brig staff. Not doing outdoor rec-- things that were afforded.

She also-- I remember her comparing it relative to what she normally sees in the typical Brig detainee. And, how she felt that this was a little more extreme then she had experienced in the past. The impression--

Judge Lind

Keep-- No, Go ahead. Finish answering and then I will ask my next question.

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

The impression I got was what we saw was-- first of all, what I saw in interviewed Pfc. Manning was someone who did not seem maladjusted.

He seemed to-- His mood seemed fine. It really struck me-- how his mood-- and I understand this is just according to the Brig commander-- was such a stark difference between the two.

It was difficult to figure out his motivation. It was clear-- It was clear when-- I would speak with him first and he did not seem depressed.

I would not be worried about him, but people often can act differently in different situations and while he was with me, he seemed to be a very low risk. But I wasn't witness to-- which I couldn't witnesses-- was how did interact when he wasn't being interviewed-- so, because of the stark difference in the description that the Brig staff would convey to me.

So, I remember I-- I kind of understood why the Brig commander would have some concerns-- if-- for during the week she would see a very solemn withdrawn person-- I can understand her concern if when we would interview a the person-- or, I'm sorry, 'the person'-- when we interviewed Pfc. Manning he wouldn't seem depressed.

And, I didn't want to go into his motivation- you know, whether it was just with him or whatnot-- only because I only did see him once per week.

But all of those consideration, you know, to that be the reason behind it-- but, given that I only saw him twice, I didn't feel comfortable [stating?] that.

Judge Lind

In your-- have you worked in correction facilities other than this experience?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes, Ma'am. At Guantanamo Bay currently.

Judge Lind

Oh, okay. I asked you earlier if you were familiar with prevention of injury status as a status-- or suicide risk for that matter? Know-- I guess-- if you worked in those kinds of setting have you seen this before?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Prevention of injury, Ma'am?

Judge Lind

Yes.

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Is that-- in your experience is that like a status that one would go-- would be on for a long time? A short time? Does it vary person by person?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

A person could be on that for a while--depending on, you know, what time of reassurance the detention facility or Brig will-- again whether it's verbal or behavior or some indication that-- that this person is safe. It's usually-- a lot of it has to do with his sociability to the person engaging and just simple conversations.

And, as I remember the concern with Pfc. Manning wasn't conversing in a most simple conversation that would in no way would be part of this case-- just simple daily courtesy-- that they felt that he just-- he wouldn't engage that way.

Judge Lind

When you are describing the fact that Pfc. Manning wouldn't engage-- and, I guess this is where my confusion is lying a bit-- you testified earlier that you were recommending-- notwithstanding your own interviews-- continued POI, because of a sudden change in behavior-- and, I guess I am going back to my original question-- did the Brig commander describe what Pfc. Manning was like before his behavior was changed?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

[Missed a few words.] So, his typical behavior was not conversing, and not doing [missed words]-- but that week, I remember, specifically she said that his eye contact was very poor. It-- he would stare at the ground if someone was speaking to him-- he would use very few words in reply. She also reported-- she said that it was just more-- more obsessive than what she experienced with him.

Judge Lind

Why did she believe-- did she tell you why she believed that Pfc. Manning would be in danger from the other inmates?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

You know, it's-- it's-- I remember she specifically [missed word] concerned a conversations of whether it would be safe with other-- other inmates [missed a few words] with intent to harm him.

I don't think there is ever a conversation when he would ever be any threat to another inmate. That he himself would harm another person.

Judge Lind

Did she say why she thought other inmates would harm him?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

I can't remember specifically, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Any follow up based on that?

Defense (Coombs)

No, your Honor.

Prosecution (Morrow)

No, your Honor.

Judge Lind

Alright, Dr. Russel you are excused. Thank you for your testimony.

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Thank you, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Alright, do we have any other witnesses for today?

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes, your Honor. United States calls GM1 [Navy Gunners Mate] Webb.

Prosecution (VonElton)

Raise your right hand. Do you swear and affirm that the statements that you are about to make are the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I do.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, for the record you are [missed statement]... GM1 Webb what is your full name?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Terrance [missed middle name] Webb, Jr.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, how long have you served in the Navy?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I served in the Navy nine months-- or nine years, eleven months.

Prosecution (VonElton)

I just want to ask you for clarifications-- in the Navy, GM1-- what is that equivalent in grade?

GM1 Terrance Webb

It's an E-6.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And GM2 is an equivalent of?

GM1 Terrance Webb

An E-5.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, your rank when you were at Quantico was?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Was E-5.

Prosecution (VonElton)

Okay. Thank you. And how much experience do you have in corrections?

GM1 Terrance Webb

In corrections-- Quantico was my first-- like the first Brig that I ever worked at.

Prosecution (VonElton)

Did you receive any schooling?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes. I went the same correctional program we've had all the Marines and all [missed a few words] when they go to-- when they go work in Brigs.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, when did you report to Quantico?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I reported to Quantico in July-- I believe July 7, 2010.

Prosecution (VonElton)

About how long were you there?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I was there from July 7, 2010 until January 27, 2012.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, what were your duty titles?

GM1 Terrance Webb

While I was working at Quantico Brig, I was a watch supervisor, and then I was a duty brig supervisor.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, I want to go over that a little bit. What is a watch supervisor do?

GM1 Terrance Webb

A watch supervisor is overall in charge of the personnel on the section-- they set the watch posts and ensure that and ensure that the personnel in the section are good to go while they are standing their posts.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And what does a duty brig supervisor do?

GM1 Terrance Webb

A duty brig supervisor is overall in charge of the Brig in the absence of the commanding office.

They also-- they-- they carry out or ensure that the plan of the day is carried out-- and they also oversee-- they oversee the watch supervisor and make sure that all the posts are being stood up properly.

Prosecution (VonElton)

So, is the DBS maintaining the day to day operations of the Brig?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, how much interactions did you have with prisoners at that point at Quantico Brig as DBS?

GM1 Terrance Webb

As a DBS I had to speak with all the prisoners at least twice a day.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, why would you speak with them?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Just to verify-- or to ask them if everything is okay-- of they had any issues or any complaint.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, did you conduct skin checks?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I did not. But I conducted counts-- well, you now, when we had to do counts, but I did not-- I did not personally conduct them-- conduct skin checks.

Prosecution (VonElton)

As DBS are you responsible for ensuring skin checks were conducted?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, would you please explain what a skin check is?

GM1 Terrance Webb

What a skin check is-- is at night, once all the inmates are asleep the guards that are actually standing post inside special quarters-- they go by and they verify that they can see skin from each and every inmate.

So, if they walk by some and the inmate has a blanket over their head-- it is their job to wake the inmate up and let them know that they need to remove that blanket from their head, so they can see [missed word].

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, why do you do this?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Because, to ensure that the inmate is still breathing and the inmate is still there.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, how often were these skin checks?

GM1 Terrance Webb

If they were a regular MDI [medium in custody]  inmate it was say-- every thirty minutes. But if it was a suicide risk it was-- actually I am not a hundred per cent sure if it was thirty minutes or fifteen, but I know suicide was every five minutes.

Prosecution (VonElton)

But every prisoner was checked for skin at some point throughout the night-- regardless of classification specifically?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

Now, I want to talk a little but about 18 January 2011. Do you remember that day?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

What was your duty title that day?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I was the duty brig supervisor for that day, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, were you a part of escorting Pfc. Manning to recreation call?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, what was your role on that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I was duty brig supervisor-- I was just overseeing the whole operation.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And who were you overseeing?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Pfc. Manning.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, what guards were there?

GM1 Terrance Webb

It was Lance Corporal Tankersly and Lance Corporal Cline.

Prosecution (VonElton)

Was it about the normal number of guards to move Pfc. Manning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And--

GM1 Terrance Webb

I'm sorry-- for rec call that was the normal number.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, so-- how did you start moving Pfc. Manning that morning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

We arrived at his cell. We advised him that he was going to rec call. We sound-- we sound, 'Stand by for lockdown.' We opened-- we open the cell, and we applied-- applied his restraints.

Prosecution (VonElton)

Was that normal procedure?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And was that procedure based on his maximum custody?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And that was the procedure-- was that the procedure executed everyday?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

Who applied the restraints?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I do not remember, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

Do you remember anything unusual happening?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Well once his restraints were applied-- Lance Corporal-- Lance Corporal Tankersly-- after everything was completed, he was outside his cell to face [missed word] and Lance Corporal Tankersly told him to face towards the door to alpha row, and he faced that way, but he did not-- he did not respond.

Prosecution (VonElton)

When you say he did not respond, who did not respond?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Pfc. Manning.

Prosecution (VonElton)

Alright. Please continue.

GM1 Terrance Webb

He did not respond-- he didn't respond to the command. So, at that time Lance Corporal Tankersly corrected him.

Prosecution (VonElton)

How many time were the commands given?

GM1 Terrance Webb

The command was given once, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, were any other commands given by any other person?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir. Anytime I give commands, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

Did any other guards give a command to Pfc. Manning to face a direction?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

So, only Lance Corporal Tankersly gave the command?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, what happened after the command was given?

GM1 Terrance Webb

There was no response, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, what happened after there was no response?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Lance Corporal Tankersly corrected Pfc. Manning, and told him that anytime he is spoken to by a guard inside-- anytime he is spoke to he needs to respond with 'Aye Aye,' 'Yes or No' or if it is an officer, 'Sir or Ma'am.'

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, how did Pfc. Manning respond?

GM1 Terrance Webb

He did not respond. I am not exactly sure how he responded at that time.

Prosecution (VonElton)

So, after the correction, what happened next?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Then-- I don't remember at this time-- is there a, like, incident report-- that I?

Prosecution (VonElton)

Did you proceed to rec call?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, after everything was completed we did proceed to rec call.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, about how many people were at recreation call when you arrived?

GM1 Terrance Webb

When we arrived at recreation call-- at recreation call it was myself-- myself and Lance Corporal Tankersly, Lance Corporal Cline, and--

Prosecution (VonElton)

So, what happened when you arrived? Where was recreation call that day?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Recreation call was dorm one.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, is that the normal place for it?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yep. That's the normal place for-- for indoor rec call. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, so what happened after you arrived?

GM1 Terrance Webb

When we arrived, we sounded, 'Secure lock down.' We placed-- we moved Manning into the middle-- into the middle of dorm one. But, prior to removing his restraints, we instructed him not to move.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, how did he respond to that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

At first, he didn't respond. But, the command was said again and he then he said that he was not moving.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, how did Pfc. Manning appear at this time?

GM1 Terrance Webb

There really didn't seem to be anything out of the ordinary, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

Okay, so what happened next?

GM1 Terrance Webb

We proceeded to remove his restraints. Once we completed removing his restraints, he fell on his buttocks. And, at that time--

Prosecution (VonElton)

Well, why did he fall?

GM1 Terrance Webb

We were not sure, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

What did you say to him?

GM1 Terrance Webb

We-- well-- well, when he fell on his buttock, we reached out to try to catch him.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And how would you describe his demeanor at that time?

GM1 Terrance Webb

At that time-- I really don't remember exactly-- exactly how he looked. I just-- he fell on his buttocks and popped up-- stood up really quick and kind of went over into one of the-- sort of behind the machines.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, what did he do when he was behind the machines?

GM1 Terrance Webb

He was apologizing to myself and Lance Corporal Tankersly.

Prosecution (VonElton)

How did he sound?

GM1 Terrance Webb

He just kept saying, 'I'm sorry, GM2. I am sorry, Lance Corporal.'

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, what was his volume like?

GM1 Terrance Webb

It wasn't-- it wasn't loud. It was just kind of like-- kind of like as I am speaking to you.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, so what happened next after he ran behind the machine?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I called the security chief to come to dorm one--we grabbed a chair and instructed Manning to sit down.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, who is the security chief?

GM1 Terrance Webb

It's Gunnery Sergeant Fuller.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, so after Gunnery Sergeant Fuller shows up, what happens next?

GM1 Terrance Webb

He sat-- he sat Manning down and spoke with him, and asked him if there was anything he could do to-- anything he could do to help him.

He stated that there-- there wasn't anything-- there wasn't anything-- or there wasn't anything that he could think of for us to do to help him, and after that he was asked if he wanted to complete his rec call. He said that he did, so he completed his rec call.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, how long did Pfc. Manning's recreation call last?

GM1 Terrance Webb

They were normally an hour.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, did it go the full time?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

I want to ask [missed a few words]. Do you remember what happened later?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Later?

Prosecution (VonElton)

Later in that day-- after recreation call?

GM1 Terrance Webb

A little bit, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And would you please describe what you remember?

GM1 Terrance Webb

After the rec call-- after we had him back into his cell-- is that [missed a few words], sir?

Prosecution (VonElton)

[affirmative]

GM1 Terrance Webb

I remember that Chief Warrant Officer Averhart came in to speak with Manning, and I was actually inside the guard shack while they were talking.

I was just there to-- incase the-- in case the OIC needed-- needed anything from me. Normally, I was-- I was had to try to keep myself around.

Prosecution (VonElton)

Was it normal for you to be in the guard shack?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No, just anytime when-- anytime when he is in there-- it is something the OIC was in there talking to inmates, I would go in-- I would just kind of view the general area in case he had any questions for me. Just to make myself accessible.

Prosecution (VonElton)

That was your normal procedure?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

Okay. And so, what happened next?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I remember hearing Pfc. Manning raising his voice-- shouting. I looked up and I kind of saw his hands flailing, and at that time Chief Warrant Officer Averhart came in and instructed me-- something to the effect of 'Special move. Suicide.' And at that time, I called a code blue.

Prosecution (VonElton)

So, when-- after the 'Special move. Suicide' what did you do next?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I got on my radio and called a code blue, and instructed my SORT [Special Operations Response Team] team suit up.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, by SORT team you mean extraction team?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, what was the status of the extraction team?

GM1 Terrance Webb

You mean after--?

Prosecution (VonElton)

After you-- after you-- after you suited up?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Oh, they were just on standby. They were actually outside of special quarters standing by--

Prosecution (VonElton)

What is-- what is Pfc. Manning doing during this time?

GM1 Terrance Webb

During this time-- I was actually-- I was outside of special quarters ensuring that my SORT team-- you know that the lock was open for them to-- to get all their equipment. So, I am not exactly sure what was happening.

Prosecution (VonElton)

Did the SORT team ever go into Pfc. Manning's cell?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

Why not?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Because the SORT team was actually stood down by either Chief Warrant Officer Averhart or Master Sergeant Papakie.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, do you know why?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I-- I believe after that he became compliant, so we-- well we felt that we did not need to go in to gain compliance.

Prosecution (VonElton)

I want to talk a little bit about the morning routine with Pfc. Manning. After his clothing was taken-- after his [missed] was already taken-- what time did morning start for Pfc. Manning at the Brig?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Reveille started at zero five, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, what would happen after reveille?

GM1 Terrance Webb

After reveille, we give them time to wake up, and then we sound-- we sound morning count.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, what time would count be usually?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That was usually possibly ten minutes after reveille.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, what is count?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Count is-- we go through-- three times a day to count all the prisoners to ensure that we have all the prisoners inside-- inside the facility we know [missed a few words].

Prosecution (VonElton)

Is count always at exactly the same time?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Generally it is, but it all depends on the [missed word] tempo of the facility. So, there are some deviation.

Prosecution (VonElton)

Does count vary a little to make it harder for [missed word]?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, why is that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Just to ensure that there isn't a pattern formed.

Prosecution (VonElton)

So, would there be a standby for count?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, when would that usually be?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Standby for count was normally sounded approximately five minutes before count.

Prosecution (VonElton)

Okay. And so, we have reveille. We have count. When does Pfc. Manning usually get his gear back?

GM1 Terrance Webb

On-- on the light duty days, my section normally they would actually put his clothes in the feed tray to his cell prior to reveille.

Prosecution (VonElton)

So, what time prior to reveille?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I-- I'm not exactly sure. I decide-- I know-- maybe five minutes prior to reveille.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, that was a routine while you were DBS?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, while you were DBS was Pfc. Manning ever required to stand naked at attention or parade rest?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, when Pfc. Manning was given his clothing in the morning, what was he suppose to do with it?

GM1 Terrance Webb

He was suppose to put his clothing on-- or, he was suppose to remove his-- his suicide smock and apply-- put his clothing on.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, when was he suppose to do that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Directly at-- as soon as reveille sounded-- as soon as reveille sounded.

Prosecution (VonElton)

So, before count?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (VonElton)

And, did you ever communicate this to him?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I never had to. I never had any issue with any-- him not in his clothing for count.

Prosecution (VonElton)

No, further questions.

Defense (Coombs)

GM1 Webb, I just have a few questions for you, okay?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright. Did you interact with Manning, when you were the DBS?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, I did.

Defense (Coombs)

And, about how often?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Anytime I had duty-- at a minimum it was twice a day, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

In your interactions with him, was he always respectful to you?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir. Except for the one incident that we spoke about-- other than that he was respectful.

Defense (Coombs)

Was he disrespectful to you on that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, so even including that incident, he was always respectful to you?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And he would immediately stand at parade rest when he spoke to you?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Can you give me an example of maybe your typical conversation with Pfc. Manning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I would come by after taking a shift-- or anytime I would come in-- I would say-- I would greet them with the greet of the day, 'Good morning' or 'afternoon.' I'd say 'Good morning, detainee Manning. How are you doing today?'   

He would tell me he was fine-- all the time-- you know, he would tell me he was fine. I would ask him if he had any issues or complaints.

He would tell me he had no issue or complaints. Sometime I would ask him, you know, 'Is-- are, you know-- are the showers fine? How's chow?' You know, 'Is chow-- are you getting enough chow?'-- or anything like that.

He would tell me everything is fine. And, [missed word] good to go, 'Detainee, Manning, carry on.' And I would go on to the next--

Defense (Coombs)

Next detainee?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, comparing Pfc. Manning's responses to you with the next detainee's responses-- were they roughly about the same?

GM1 Terrance Webb

They would vary on any given day-- but for the most part, yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. From your observation, Pfc. Manning's behaviors seemed normal?

GM1 Terrance Webb

For the most part-- other than what I would hear-- anytime, when-- I-- anything that I physically saw was generally normal.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so everything that you saw with your eyes-- he looked normal?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, he would engage in light conversation with you when you talked to him?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

You never saw him exhibit any strange behavior when you were the DBS?

GM1 Terrance Webb

When I was inside special quarters, no.

Defense (Coombs)

And, putting aside the 18 January incident-- his behavior for the entire time that you were there was pretty much the same while he was at Quantico?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

I'm sorry?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

So, aside from the 18 January incident, you never noticed a decline in his communication with you when you talked to him or [missed a few words]?

GM1 Terrance Webb

With me, no.

Defense (Coombs)

And to your recollection there was rarely ever a detainee on the opposite side of Pfc. Manning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

The only exception might be if they were sharing TV call?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct. There's a-- there's-- I know there has been one, but it's-- [missed statement].

Defense (Coombs)

And, because sometimes there was a-- you had another detainee next to him-- like I said for TV call-- they'd be watching television and not necessarily conversing with each other, right?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That's not correct-- but when I-- they'd have conversations before. I've actually seen reports from another-- another detainee requesting not to speak with detainee Manning.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. So, one time you received a request from another detainee not to speak with Pfc. Manning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

From your observation when-- when you were seeing him on 18 January-- it was you and Lance Corporal Tankersly, and Lance Corporal bringing him out for his recreation call?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, Lance Corporal Tankersly escorted Manning out of the cell, once the restraints were placed on him?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

GM1 Terrance Webb

And, told him to face alpha row-- [missed a few words]?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, Pfc. Manning complied with that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

What he failed to do was say, 'Yes' or 'Aye Aye, Lance Corporal'?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, Lance Corporal Tankersly immediately corrected him?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, at that point, Lance Corporal Tankersly said, 'Hey, when you get an instruction, you need to say, 'Aye Aye, Lance Corporal'?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct?

Defense (Coombs)

And from your observation, Pfc. Manning looked back at him-- didn't really say anything and you couldn't tell if he was confused or not?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, he didn't immediately reply to him, and then Lance Corporal Tankersly again repeated, 'Look, when someone gives you a direction, you need to say, 'Aye Aye' and--

GM1 Terrance Webb

It was actually that, that was said by me. I instructed him to-- that anytime he was spoke to by-- by staff inside the facility, he needs to address them with a proper title.

Defense (Coombs)

We'll get to that in a moment-- so, you don't recall Lance Corporal Tankersly telling him again, 'Look when,' when he didn't get an immediately reply--

GM1 Terrance Webb

I-- I-- not to my recollection, no. I don't remember.

Defense (Coombs)

Do you recall where Lance Corporal Tankersly eventually said, 'Let's go'-- to Pfc. Manning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I-- I remember, 'Let's go' being said. I don't remember who exactly said that, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you recall after him saying, 'Let's go,' that is where Pfc. Manning said, 'No, wait'?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, then that is when you went to him and you said to him, 'Listen Pfc. Manning. When somebody gives you direction and guidance, you need to respond doing it, and then you also need to say their names and ranks'?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Is that what you remember now?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, I remember saying that.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, so at that point when you said that, Pfc. manning replied to you, 'Yes, GM2 Webb'?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

So, then you go down to the recreation room and obviously before you are moving him lock down is commenced i the facility, right?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

So, that means that the entire facility is locked down, and there are no other detainees out of their cells?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, that is because Pfc. Manning was considered MAX and POI and that was the requirements for the status?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Because he was a maximum custody level the requirements were maximum custody.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. So, then you get him to the recreation room, and when you are in there, Pfc. Manning is still in full restraints, correct?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, so when you are holding on to him, it's because he is in full restraints?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

You don't want him to fall down?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, at that point your memory is that Lance Corporal Tankersly says, 'Stop moving'?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No. Prior to removing his-- prior to removing his restraints he told him not to move.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, I'm not doing a timing thing, but at some point when he is standing there in full restraints he's told to stop moving?

GM1 Terrance Webb

He doesn't-- he doesn't to tell him to stop moving. He tells him, 'Don't move.'

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. Alright-- so, tells him, 'Don't move'?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, then Pfc. Manning replies back to him, 'I'm not moving'?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, at that point Lance Corporal Tankersly again, cause he just says, 'I'm not moving,' corrects him and says, 'Look you need to respond with,' you know, 'Aye Aye, Lance Corporal'?

GM1 Terrance Webb

[Missed a few words], yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you recall at that point, Lance Corporal Tankersly saying, or somebody else saying, 'Are we gonna have a problem? Don't you understand what the directive is?'

GM1 Terrance Webb

I do not. I do not recall that, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

You don't recall that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I don't recall it being said. I am not sure.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. So, the restraints are taken from Pfc. Manning an at that point, then he falls back on his buttocks, correct?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, I know from what we talked about-- you reached out and tried to grab him?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, so did Lance Corporal Tankersly?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

But neither one of you could get to him quickly enough, to avoid him falling down?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when you said he fell down on his buttock-- if I am standing here and I decided to fall down-- that-- I can first bend my knees in order to kind of brace the fall-- is that what Pfc. Manning did?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

So he fell down?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

So, there wasn't other-- from your observation then-- did it look like he passed out?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

What did it-- did it look like he just lost control of his legs perhaps?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Well, when he fell down-- his-- his-- he fell on his legs [missed word] of bent at the waist to a seated position?

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, so-- so not bending the knees but bending at the waist?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay So, when he falls down-- and when he falls down and you don't get to him, then from your memory, does he-- does he say anything at that point?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Not at that point, no.

Defense (Coombs)

You don't recall him saying something like, 'No wait' or 'Stop [missed word]'?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I don't recall that-- just-- from my memory , I remembered him immediately jumping right back up and then running to the-- running behind the machines.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. So, he get's behind one of the machines and you said he-- I think you told me he covered his face at that point?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, and he started to make a sound?

GM1 Terrance Webb

He was-- he was apologizing to myself and Lance Corporal Tankersly.

Defense (Coombs)

And, I know-- and you testified that he said that-- did he make any sounds, though, at that point?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That-- he was just saying that he'd [missed a few words]-- like, that I-- like, his [missed a few words] sounds coming out. I don't know what he was saying. It was kind of like he was mumbling something.

Defense (Coombs)

And, can you-- can you mimic what you recall him doing when he made those sounds?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Well, once he, you know-- he was apologizing and then he had his hands over his face and then he just kind of like-- like his lips were moving like he was mumbling something. i don't know-- I am not sure what he was saying.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright-- so you-- you-- witness put his hands over his face. Do you recall him making any sounds?

GM1 Terrance Webb

It was just-- just mumbling.

Defense (Coombs)

It was mumbling, so you couldn't make out--

GM1 Terrance Webb

I couldn't make out what was being said.

Defense (Coombs)

And what did the mumbling sound like?

GM1 Terrance Webb

It sounded to me like-- possibly whimpering.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. Did you see any tears on Pfc. Manning's face?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And you said that he immediately apologized to you and to Lance Corporal?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And at that point my understanding Gunnery Sergeant Fuller came in to the room? Is that correct?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No. I--

Defense (Coombs)

At some point?

GM1 Terrance Webb

At some point he came in, yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And that was because of what happened?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Exactly.

Defense (Coombs)

And, so Lance Corporal Cline -- I think-- then instructed Pfc. Manning to take a seat in a chair?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And then Gunnery Sergeant Fuller comes up and he asks Pfc. Manning what happened?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, Pfc. Manning tells him that he felt like he was being treated differently on this day?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And he said he felt like the guards were anxious and that making him anxious?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, he didn't understand why the guards were anxious?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, afterwards, you-- was it you or was it Gunnery Sergeant Fuller decided to replace Tankersly and Cline?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I believe it was my call to-- to replace Lance Corporal Tankersly and Lance Corporal Cline.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, so. You made the call to replace Lance Corporal Tankersly and Cline with two other guards?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And that I believe was because you believe that would diffuse the situation in your mind?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Because whatever the situation was-- it seemed to be coming between Pfc. Manning and Tankersly and Cline-- as opposed to Pfc. Manning and you, sir?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so then Pfc. Manning wants to-- and the new guards replaced actually while he is still at rec call, correct?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And so, then while you are at rec call, he's just doing his rec call as normal?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

No other issues?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No.

Defense (Coombs)

And, then when the rec call is done, you put the restraints back on him?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you escort-- and before I guess you move him from the rec area, you lock down the facility again?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And then you move him back to his cell?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And then you remove the restraints?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, I imagine that whole process there, for you, would be several guidances given to Pfc. Manning or some other-- one of the other guards would give him like, 'Turn this way. Face this way'?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, was he replying as he is suppose to?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

So, you had no other issues getting him back into his cell?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No.

Defense (Coombs)

And then as the DBS, was it normal for you to be in the observation booth? Is that where you normally stay?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I had my office-- that was closer to [missed two words].

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. So, that would be a place where you would just come as doing whatever [missed a word] as the DBS?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

So, later that day then-- Chief Averhart comes to see Pfc. Manning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

Do you recall how much longer after the rec call, that this was?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I'm not sure. Normally, if I was in my office, I would have seen Chief Averhart-- Chief Warrant Officer Averhart going to special quarters, I would fall behind him-- just to, you know, place myself inside-- inside special quarters to remain-- you know, to be accessible.

I am not sure what time frame-- or how much longer after that it was.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, so from today-- I know it's been a long time. But, today-- your memory you can't really place that if it was a half hour later-- an hour later-- two hours later?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. But there-- there came a time where Chief Averhart came in to speak to Pfc. Manning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you weren't there present for the conversation?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No.

Defense (Coombs)

You were instead within the observation booth?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you would hear things probably if the voice level was high enough?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

But it wasn't like you and I talking right now-- where you can hear it-- word for word what was said? So, you don't know what Chief Averhart said to Pfc. Manning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you don't know what Pfc. Manning said back to Chief Averhart?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That's correct.

Defense (Coombs)

But, there came a time when a voice was raised, and that caused you to-- kind of I guess divert your attention to what was going on outside of the booth?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when you looked up you saw Pfc. Manning-- you said his arms were flailing-- flailing around I believe?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, was he striking himself at that point?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I am not sure if he was striking himself. His hands were up kind of by his face-- kind of like this. I, you know,-- I'm not sure exactly what he was doing. I just kind of looked up, and I saw what he was doing and at that time Chief Warrant Officer Averhart walked into-- walked into special quarters.

Defense (Coombs)

We'll get to that, so-- I need to describe what you just did. So, you put your hand up next to your head. From what you saw-- apparently you were going hands back and forth basically from his shoulder to the front of your face?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Well, I am not exactly sure what-- what he was doing with his hands just--

Defense (Coombs)

How about from just what you recall though-- when you looked up what do you recall that you--

GM1 Terrance Webb

I just remember his hands around his head, you know-- I don't know if they were going back and forth or side to side, you know-- I am not exactly sure the motions-- just his hands were moving around his head.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, so his hands roughly up at his head level?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright. So, then at that point Chief Averhart comes into the observation room?

GM1 Terrance Webb

[Missed, but affirmative.]

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, and he says, 'Special move. Suicide risk' or 'SR'?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Something to that effect, yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, so that told you that obviously Pfc. Manning was going to move-- the 'special move' part-- was that the 'code blue' part?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No. Inside the unit-- we do special moves all the time-- just his actions cause me to call the code blue.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, did you call the code blue--

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

-- or did Chief Averhart say, 'Code blue'?

GM1 Terrance Webb

He didn't say code red, or code black or code blue?

Defense (Coombs)

And, why did you call code blue?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Because of his actions.

Defense (Coombs)

Whose actions?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Just speaking-- when he was speaking with the OIC-- the raised voice and the when Chief Warrant Officer Averhart came in-- in-- in my mind that lead me to believe that something was definitely out of the ordinary and I needed to have a SORT team on standby.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, so when you called-- and that's your memory that you are the one who called the code blue. And, you called the code blue. And, how do you do that? Is that like over the mic, 'Code blue'?

GM1 Terrance Webb

It's over the-- it's over the two way radios that we have.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, so you say, 'Code blue.' And, was Chief Averhart present when you called the code blue?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, he didn't stand you down, right immediately at that point?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No.

Defense (Coombs)

So, obviously then he must of concurred with your code blue?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when you called code blue-- what does that do? What domino effect does that..?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Once I called the code blue-- master patrol they call over the intercom system-- they sound code blue over the intercom system-- and let them know-- the staff know what is going on at that time-- the SORT team or the extra guards that I have on my-- on my shift that were-- they are told before the shift who is on the SORT team.

They know to go to the-- to the locker and standby for me to unlock the door-- standby for me to get it open. So, they suit up in the SORT team theater.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so you are in the observation room. You call the code blue. And then you go to-- what room? To the locker?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Well, once I sound the code blue-- it's a-- there's another person in security-- I forget which-- who it was-- but they actually-- they-- I am trying to remember-- they had-- they basically-- it's like a contraband control. They have-- they have the key to the SORT locker. So, once I call that, they go to the locker, and then I go out to the-- I go out to where the SORT team is suited up to ensure that-- that everybody-- everybody is actually getting suited up.

Defense (Coombs)

And, where is this locker at?

GM1 Terrance Webb

It's on the-- it's on the outer-- it's on the outside of-- outside of the [missed word, sounds like 'silent court'].

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, so the [missed word, sounds like 'silent court']-- that's the door that-- the hard metal door?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No, there is a-- there's a-- there's a gate-- right when you walk through the front-- through the front hatch for-- to go up to the Brig-- there's that gate-- it's two gates-- where one closes when you walk in, then the other one-- well if you go around the corner prior to either-- going through the side [missed word, sounds like 'silent court']. Right to that right, then there is a locker room there where all the SORT gear is kept.

Defense (Coombs)

And, help me with-- [missed word, sounds like 'silent court']-- what-- what is that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

It's basically-- it's a-- it's a traffic control gate sort of-- I mean it's to control who enters and exits the Brig-- so you don't just have one door open you walking in and out.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so once you walk in-- that door opens, you walk in the door closes and then the other door will open once this door is closed?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. So, then you leave in order to get-- essentially at the locker-- to make sure everybody is doing their job at that point, right?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And then what is involved-- it's a code blue then that equates to a forced extraction?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Not necessarily sir. They were just suiting up to be on standby.

Defense (Coombs)

No, I'm not saying that that's what that is-- then, everyone is getting suited up to do a forced extraction?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. What's involved then-- how many people are at this locker room area?

GM1 Terrance Webb

There is five people at the locker room.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what do they do at that point?

GM1 Terrance Webb

They're-- everybody is suited up-- suited up in their gear.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what kind of gear are they getting into at that point?

GM1 Terrance Webb

They-- they have-- there's a helmet with a face shield. There's a chest-- there's a chest pads. Arm pads. It's mainly protection gear for people on the SORT team. So, to protect themselves from the inmate if he [missed two words].

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. And, then you said there were five people. Do-- do each of the five people have a different job?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes. Each person-- each person has-- has to do a different job. I am not sure the numbers, but the one person-- their jobs is to control the head to ensure that their head, you know-- isn't bashed around anywhere. Another person, their job is to control one arm. Another person the other arm. And, the same to control the legs.

And, then their is two people that actually-- they hold the restraints. So, everybody that goes on the SORT team they have a specific job to do.

Defense (Coombs)

My understanding from our conversations at that point-- when everyone gets suited up, and they are ready to do their job-- and you get [missed word] up, and you break out the video camera and you go from each person-- and you have that person indicate what their job is and what they are going to do?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, so that is what you did in this case?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I--

Defense (Coombs)

Yeah-- you suited up, right?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, did you ever get to the point were you were doing the camera thing?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I don't believe [missed word] did, because after-- after I saw the SORT team suited up-- I was back inside special quarters.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. So, you get the-- how much time goes by after the code blue and everyone is suited up and ready to go?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Approximately-- approximately five minutes.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. And, then you come in and what happens when you come back?

GM1 Terrance Webb

When I walk back in-- we were-- I believe we will still trying to get compliance from-- from detainee Manning.

Defense (Coombs)

And, compliance meaning, what?

GM1 Terrance Webb

We were-- I believe they requested to get his gear from him. I'm not one hundred percent sure what was happening at that time-- or [missed two words] time.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, for the cell extraction part of it-- had you ever done a cell extraction before?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Well, we've done some training for school and also training-- Brig training-- on out training days we-- we still go through and practice forced cell extractions.

Defense (Coombs)

But, in for real-- have you ever done a forced cell extraction?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

When detainee Manning-- or Pfc. Manning-- the type of detainee that you would envision the need to do a cell extraction?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Any-- any-- any a-- any type of detainee that I allowed a cell extraction performed on--

Defense (Coombs)

Based upon what you knew about him? Did you envision him the type of detainee that you would have to do a cell extraction?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I mean that's not really something that I can answer because at any moment, a detainee demeanor could changed to where you have to perform a forced cell extraction.

Defense (Coombs)

But, from your memory of him, he was always compliant? Correct?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

He was always respectful to you?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, he always, you know-- and he was always quiet?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Courteous?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

No [missed word] danger?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Well I was on duty, that is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, so from your observation of him, he would not be the type of person you would normally think, 'I need to extract that guy.'

GM1 Terrance Webb

I would still say, I can't make that judgment, because at a moments notice I can-- I would have to do a forced cell extraction on any-- on any inmate.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. So, then at some point when you come back in-- you don't have to do the cell extraction, right?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That's correct.

Defense (Coombs)

If you are basically told to stand down?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, at this point then, Pfc. Manning is-- is apparently compliant, and you are not going in for the cell extraction?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, Pfc. Manning-- and was-- do you see him stripped down at that point to just his underwear?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I'm not-- I'm not so sure. I can't remember.

Defense (Coombs)

So, you don't remember seeing him standing, just in his underwear?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I believe that if he did-- if his status changed to suicide risk he would have been in his underwear.

Defense (Coombs)

And, I know it's a long time ago-- so, from your memory do you recall ever seeing-- standing by and seeing Master Sergeant Papakie and Gunnery Sergeant Blenis talking to Pfc. Manning-- just in his underwear?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I'm not-- I'm not sure. I don't remember what he was wearing, but I do remember them talking to him.

Defense (Coombs)

And, do you remember him standing there?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright. So-- there was also a video camera, do you remember the video camera?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, why was the video camera was there?

GM1 Terrance Webb

The video camera was to-- part of the forced-- from when we were suited up for the forced cell extraction.

Defense (Coombs)

So, why was the video camera being used at that point?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I do not know.

Defense (Coombs)

From your position, you would agree with me that he was-- common understanding that-- that it was Quantico and higher that people were paying attention to what was going on with Pfc. Manning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

People were paying attention to what was going on inside the facility.

Defense (Coombs)

And, Pfc. Manning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

[Missed word], yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you knew this, because of the protests that were happening outside of the gates?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

You knew this because of the phone calls that were coming to the Brig?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, because of all the mail, and the media inquiries that you were getting?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you said that there were numerous phone calls to the Brig especially at night?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you specifically informed me that every time there was a protest you were aware of that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you were aware of that because they put out information that there was a protest happening and what, you know-- what gates would be closed-- what alternative roads you have to take, right?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Right, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

In fact there was one time where someone called and ordered apparently hundreds of dollars of pizza for the Brig?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That was something that I heard about-- it didn't happen specifically to me.

Defense (Coombs)

But, you heard about that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you were aware of the fact that at least one pizza place that stopped delivering to the Brig after that incident?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, no one thought that was funny, I imagine? [Missed question.]

GM1 Terrance Webb

No.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you were aware that sometimes your superiors would come to the Brig to walk through to check on Pfc. Manning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I don't believe they were there to check on Pfc. Manning-- do you mean superiors as in our chain of command?

Defense (Coombs)

Exactly. That they-- you know, Col. Oltman walk through just to see what was going on with Pfc. Manning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

There was a lot-- there were a lot of different time when they arrive-- they were superiors or higher ups that did show up at the Brig. I am not exactly sure if they were there for-- to see Pfc. Manning per se.

Defense (Coombs)

Well, I mean, they-- you were aware of a lot of a lot of VIP people coming through just for the Brig?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes. They're not there-- VIP's that did come through, they were not there to see Pfc. Manning.

Defense (Coombs)

As far as talk with him or anything, right?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Right. They didn't-- they didn't have any contact with Pfc. Manning.

Defense (Coombs)

No, but they walked through the Brig and took a look in his cell?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

Thank you, GM1 Webb.

Judge Lind

Redirect?

Prosecution (VonElton)

No, your Honor.

Judge Lind

Alright GM Webb, I have a few questions. When did the guard-- when did the guard duty supervisor-- is that what it's called?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Duty brig supervisor.

Judge Lind

Duty brig supervisor, excuse me, yes. From what period of time to what period of time were you that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

[Missed word.] I don't remember which day I made the duty brig supervisor for the Brig. But I was a-- I was the duty brig-- so, it's possibly two months after I-- I arrived at the Brig-- until probably-- until my departure.

Judge Lind

That would be about September of 2010?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

And, so you left?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

So, as the duty brig supervisor did you do the count?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Did you do the count everyday?

Judge Lind

No, Ma'am.

GM1 Terrance Webb

There were duty brig supervisors for each-- each duty section. So, I was the duty brig supervisor for my-- for my duty section.

Judge Lind

Did you-- did you-- I don't even think you'd remember this-- did you-- where you the duty brig between the 3rd and 6th of March [2011]?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I do not recollect [missed a few words].

Judge Lind

Do you ever remember a time when Pfc. Manning was standing naked in front of you at a count?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Not for me.

Judge Lind

When did the guard shifts change?

GM1 Terrance Webb

It was-- we changed shift at zero eight.

Judge Lind

How many shifts are there?

GM1 Terrance Webb

There is one shift per duty.

Judge Lind

You mean one shift at zero eight to zero-- to-- when did they stop?

GM1 Terrance Webb

To zero eight the following morning.

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Oh, to zero eight-- so it's a 24 hour?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes Ma'am.

Judge Lind

During March of 2011 how many guards would be in the observation booth are at night-- like right before reveille?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That Ma'am would depend on the status of the-- if you have a suicide risk then [missed a few words] some extra guard, so it was always at least two Ma'am.

Judge Lind

What about POI?

GM1 Terrance Webb

On POI-- on POI I believe it was only two, Ma'am. On suicide-- on suicide risk was the only time we added an extra guard.

Judge Lind

In-- Before the 18th of January, had you been involved in taking Pfc. Manning to rec call?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes Ma'am, at-- on my shift it was either myself, and my watch supervisor-- that took him to every single one of his rec calls.

Judge Lind

In the prior occasions when-- well first of all, let me make sure I understand the protocol-- so when you are putting your restraints on and-- what orders are typically give?

GM1 Terrance Webb

When we apply the restraints?

Judge Lind

Yes.

GM1 Terrance Webb

And, when we remove the restraints, we always instruct the inmate not to move while we are doing so.

Judge Lind

Those are given every time-- every time you do that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

And, what is the inmate suppose when you give that order?

GM1 Terrance Webb

You are suppose to respond, 'Yes,' or 'No,' and the person's title.

Judge Lind

Is there a difference between responding, 'Yes,' or 'No,' or 'Aye'?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Are they suppose to respond, 'Aye'?

GM1 Terrance Webb

They can either respond 'Yes,' or 'No,' or 'Aye,' Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Now, in your own words how would the-- if the detainee is told, 'Detainee Jones don't move.' What exact words are suppose to come out of detainee Jones' mouth?

GM1 Terrance Webb

They need to say, 'Aye Aye,'-- 'Aye, GM1' or 'Yes, GM1.'

Judge Lind

Are they required to add their name like detainee Jones says, 'Aye' or detainee Jones--

GM1 Terrance Webb

[Missed.]

Judge Lind

Was there a protest that you were aware of on or close to the 18th of January of 2011?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I do not remember the date.

Judge Lind

Did you talk at all-- before going to rec call did you remember-- did you remember did you talk at all to Lance Corporals Tankersly or Cline?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Just inside the-- inside the downtime shack--

Judge Lind

Yes.

GM1 Terrance Webb

They were actually-- they were escorts throughout the day. So, while we were in there-- just informing them that we were going to-- going to do detainee Manning rec call.

Defense (Coombs)

They have any reaction to that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

You call it 'downtime shack'-- is that what you said?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Well it's not actually the downtime shack-- it's just a-- it's like the guard lounge.

Judge Lind

Do you remember-- your memory or discussion about protests?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

If I remember your testimony, you said that when you got to the rec call, after the-- well, before I get there-- when these instructions were given that Corporal Tankersly and Corporal Cline-- was there any difference in the tenor of their voice, when what had been vocalized?

GM1 Terrance Webb

When he did not comply, Lance Corporal Tankersly did speak-- did speak to detainee Manning sternly.

GM1 Terrance Webb

Which time-- I didn't [missed word] couple of time did he-- ?

GM1 Terrance Webb

This is not initially when he-- when he first walked in-- when he first told him to face alpha row-- and he didn't respond [missed a few words] -- but he spoke with him sternly and informed him to say, 'Aye Aye, Lance Corporal.'

Judge Lind

Okay-- so I understand your testimony that he did what the-- what Lance Corporal Tankersly wanted him to do-- he just didn't him to respond? Is that-- ?

GM1 Terrance Webb

[Missed, but affirmative.]

Judge Lind

Okay. So, he said that sternly at that point. So, what was Pfc. Manning's reaction at that point?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Initially he didn't-- he didn't really say anything-- he just kind of stared-- and, he, like, he just kind of stared and kind of went [missed word].

Judge Lind

And, is that when you corrected him or you said-- ?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No. After that-- that was-- and actually when he-- when he faced that way, I believe, Lance Corporal Tankersly said again-- and then after that we-- I corrected him after we proceeded-- after we started to proceed to rec call and detainee Manning [said, 'No, stop'?].

Judge Lind

And, your correction was-- tell me one more time?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I-- I instructed that he was a detainee inside of the facility, and anytime he addressed my staff he needed to address them with, 'Yes/No'-- 'Yes/No' their rank or 'Yes/No, sir/ma'am' or their rank.

Judge Lind

What was his reaction to that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

He responded, 'Yes, GM2.'

Judge Lind

In the room-- after Pfc. Manning fell down and ran behind the machine-- how long was he there-- you testified his arms were over his face?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No. It was a couple of seconds.

Judge Lind

And, I believe you said-- who were-- who-- Lance Corporal Cline ordered him to--

GM1 Terrance Webb

I-- I-- We grabbed a chair and I-- or I told Lance Corporal Cline to get the chair, I'm assuming.

Judge Lind

Did he comply immediately with that order?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Judge Lind

Did he say, 'Yes, Lance Corporal,' or--

GM1 Terrance Webb

[Missed.]

Judge Lind

Well, what was his demeanor while he was sitting in the chair?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I don't remember that.

Judge Lind

You testified earlier that Chief Averhart went to see Pfc. Manning later after rec call and you don't remember the amount of time between rec call and when he went to see him.

Do you if remember rec call was in morning or the afternoon-- or at night?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yeah. The rec call was-- I believe it was late morning, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Would the visit have been before the zero eight-hundred guard shift changed?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Okay.

GM1 Terrance Webb

Ma'am, I meant late morning as in possibly maybe ten o'clock or earlier.

Judge Lind

Did you talk to Chief Averhart before he went to see Pfc. Manning? Did you know-- did you know before he actually got up and left?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No, Ma'am. It wasn't uncommon-- it wasn't uncommon for Chief Warrant Officer Averhart to go through to speak with all the inmates.

Judge Lind

What was his demeanor when he was walking to go see Pfc. Manning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Nothing out of the ordinary, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Was he angry?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Did you hear his voice raised?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Have you seen other inmates-- I guess raise their voice or get excited with Chief Averhart?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Not-- not with Chief Averhart, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

So, in Brig's scenarios-- how big of a-- I'll use the French word- faux pas is that for a detainee?

GM1 Terrance Webb

It's extremely-- it's extremely big deal to show disrespect to the commanding officer of the Brig.

Judge Lind

Was Chief Averhart angry about-- angry after the disrespect was shown?

GM1 Terrance Webb

When he came in and instructed me for the special move, he didn't seem angry-- it was just-- he seemed kind of-- he seemed stern when he-- when he instructed me to do the special move.

Judge Lind

If someone is disrespectful to the commander of the Brig, does that normally trigger a suicide [missed word]?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Well it's-- it's never happened before [missed word], so I--

Judge Lind

The disrespect has never happened?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct.

Judge Lind

What typically happens when their are disciplinary problems in the Brig?

GM1 Terrance Webb

All depending on the severity there will be-- they would be placed on-- placed on administrative segregation pending an investigation status.

They would be-- their cell would be moved either to-- I believe it's charlie row or delta row-- of they would be moved to special quarters, depending on the severity, Ma'am. So, long as they aren't on disciplinary before being moved.

Judge Lind

And [missed a few words] be a special move-- is that right?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

I think I'm done. Is there any follow up based on that?

Prosecution (VonElton)

Nothing further your Honor.

Defense (Coombs)

Yes, Ma'am.

Defense (Coombs)

GM1 Webb what's your current position again?

GM1 Terrance Webb

[Missed, but he asked for clarification on the question.]

Defense (Coombs)

What are you doing now?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I work at the Naval Munitions Command in Norfolk, Virginia.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what do you do?

GM1 Terrance Webb

We run the-- we run the armory for the -- for the [missed a few word] for that [missed word].

Defense (Coombs)

And my understanding from our conversation-- this is the first time you worked in corrections?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, since leaving some of the terminology and stuff has left you because you no longer using it?

Defense (Coombs)

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

The idea of responding with an 'Aye' or a 'Yes', do you recall whether or not an 'Aye' would be a response-- a correct response for an action that has been ordered, and 'Yes' meaning, 'I understand'? Do you recall that at all?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I don't, no.

Defense (Coombs)

So, like someone is told to do something, 'Aye Aye.' And, if they are asked if they understand, 'Yes'?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Does that make sense?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, again using your name, like 'detainee Coombs'-- would I use my name in the third person if I am requesting something, like 'detainee Coombs requests X'? You never heard that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

No.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.

Defense (Coombs)

You were asked a question about whether or not-- if you were the DBS you ever saw Pfc. Manning standing naked in front of his cell. You answered, 'No.'

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

As, the DBS if you were coming in for count, and you looked over and you saw a detainee standing naked what would you do?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I immediately correct the situation. I'd instruct them to get dressed.

Defense (Coombs)

And, if the detainee refused, what happens?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Then I would secure count it would be written-- a DR would be written for interfering-- for interfering with count-- and I would-- I would call on the radio to-- to have the rest of the-- to have some other guards come in also.

Defense (Coombs)

So, you would-- so you at least as the DBS would immediately correct the situation. You wouldn't be a-- while you were taking count, you would keep on going?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

If the detainee was naked and you correct them, and said, 'Hey,' you know, 'get in clothes' and they started to get dressed-- would you document that somehow that they were standing naked?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, I would.

Defense (Coombs)

And, why would you do that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

To ensure that if it's-- if it's a pattern that is forming then to have documentation that, that actually happened.

Defense (Coombs)

And, I would imagine, it would also be important because interfering with the count is a problem, correct?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, also you expect detainees to follow certain requirements immediately. That's the whole idea of responding with, 'I understand,' and rank, correct?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when detainees are allowed to follow the exact Brig rules that is where control within the Brig might start to slip a little bit?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you don't let that happen, right?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is right.

Defense (Coombs)

And, that is because you enforce it, as soon as you see something is wrong?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

There was another question on-- you said the issue on the rec call happened around ten hundred [missed word]?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I am not sure the exact time, but I do-- I remember being a little but later in the morning-- or later in the-- yeah, later in the morning.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so sometime before lunch?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I can't recall one hundred per cent-- exactly when it happened.

Defense (Coombs)

And, I'm not-- I'm not really trying to pin you down on like a particular time but just from the best of your memory it was sometime in the late morning? Is that right?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I do know that the incident report-- the time of the-- of the incident should have been written down there.

Defense (Coombs)

You know how long after the incident you-- you filled out the incident report?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That would-- that would have been a little bit later in-- later in the afternoon.

Defense (Coombs)

Handing the witness what has been marked-- appellate exhibit 428. GM1 Webb do you recognize that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes, I do.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what is that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

This is the incident report that I wrote after the-- after the incident.

Defense (Coombs)

And, from your memory, how long after the incident did you write up this report?

GM1 Terrance Webb

As, soon as everything calmed down and the Brig was brought back to normal operations, everybody involved went to write their incident reports.

Defense (Coombs)

Do you know if you wrote this incident report before or after Chief Averhart went to see Pfc. Manning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

This was after.

Defense (Coombs)

So, this would have been even after that incident?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, do you see the time of your incident report?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what time is it?

GM1 Terrance Webb

It's thirteen nineteen [13:19].

Defense (Coombs)

Alright so 13:19 would have been the-- obviously that is after Chief Averhart going to see Pfc. Manning? Correct.

GM1 Terrance Webb

The 13:19 would have been the time of the incident.

Defense (Coombs)

No, I'm-- and-- I want to make sure I understand. I thought what you said was you would have written up this incident report after everything was done?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you thought that you wrote up this incident report after Chief Averhart went to go see Pfc. Manning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Correct. After-- after all of that-- after all that happened, yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, so. The whole incident with the code blue and all that stuff happened before you wrote this?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. So, that-- after that definitely she said it happens some time in the morning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, then obviously whatever time the rec call was-- Chief Averhart going to speak to Pfc. Manning must have been shortly thereafter that?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright. Retrieving from the witness appellate 428.

Judge Lind

Mr. Coombs, I don't want to interrupt your flow-- just to make sure I understand. This time-- the 13:19 is this the time that you wrote the report or is the time the incident happened?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That's the time the incident happens.

Judge Lind

Okay. Is there a time in here when you wrote the report?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I believe the time is at the bottom. It should be the time [missed a few words].

Defense (Coombs)

Alright. And, then-- I'm glad for the clarification. Thank you for that. Handing back the witness appellate exhibit 428. Why don't we do this-- why don't you take a look at it and-- and look at that-- what time would you say you filled out this report?

GM1 Terrance Webb

From looking at it-- I would say 13:25.

Defense (Coombs)

Is when you actually filled the report out?

GM1 Terrance Webb

That would have been the time that the Corporals saw it.

Defense (Coombs)

[Missed.]

GM1 Terrance Webb

Been a long time since I've been at the Brig. I believe that this was the time that the report was started-- and then this was the time that the report was completed.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. So, the report was started. And, you say this was the time-- you are pointing to 13:19?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, the time the report was completed 13:25?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, okay, and so. That would have been the time the report-- what about the time of the incident-- is that captured anywhere in the report?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes. I am honestly not sure, because I also see down here that I signed the report at 15:35 on that date. So, but I-- it is been a long time since I have seen the incident report or done anything inside a Brig, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

No, I understand. Just look at it for a moment, and then I know it's a little unnerving to be on the stand, but just look at it for a moment-- and if you can say from this if you know the time that you think you would have filled out this report. If it is still 15--

GM1 Terrance Webb

I believe that the report would have been-- would have been filled out at 15:35, since that is the date and timed that I signed it. I signed after-- after I filled out the report. And, then the 13:19 would have been when the-- the time that the incident occurred.

Defense (Coombs)

Is that-- that is what you think looking at the report?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. Alright incident being the time that this happened in the rec area?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

So, from 13:19 to-- at the latest 15:35-- that is were everything would have had to happen between the rec and Chief Averhart-- code blue and all that stuff? Because you-- Do you recall filling this out after all that was done?

GM1 Terrance Webb

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. Retrieving appellate exhibit 428 from the witness. Ma'am that is all the questions I have.

Judge Lind

And, nothing from the Government?

Prosecution (VonElton)

No, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Alright. GM1 Webb you are permanently excused physically would ask if you would leave a cell phone number with a Government representative, so we can reach you if we need to talk to you for any further information in these proceedings. Please don't discuss your testimony or knowledge of the case with anyone other than the lawyers or the accused [missed a few words].

GM1 Terrance Webb

Okay.

Judge Lind

Thank you. Alright, any further order of march this evening or should we call it a day and reconvene tomorrow?

Prosecution (Fein)

Ma'am if we could have a ten minute recess or fifteen minute recess for comfort break and figure that out.

Judge Lind

Alright. Just come on into my office for an [RCM] 802 and let me know before we go back on the record.

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Court is in recess until [missed last few words].

ALL RISE

Judge Lind

Please be seated. This Article 39(a) Session is called to order. Let the record reflect all parties present when the Court last recessed, are again present in Court.

Counsel and I met briefly for an RCM 802 conference, what that is-- is as I told you before is where I talk about scheduling and logistics issues in the case. The Government has advised me that they wished not to call anymore witnesses this evening and begin again tomorrow. Defense has concurred. We have also discussed the next session.

If you remember yesterday, I said it was going to be Wednesday through Friday of next week-- which is 5 through 7 December. Major Fein?

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, Ma'am. United States-- and I am sorry to do this unplanned-- just comment-- is that for the discussion in a few minutes is that-- would be to discuss the calendar tomorrow-- could we then finalize whether we push to the next weekend or start next we. I know we had come to a resolution in your office? But there might be other issues outstanding.

Judge Lind

Alright. Let me tell you what was discussed and what I thought was resolved-- and apparently not resolved. We had talked about pushing the case into the weekend, next week just because we have so many witnesses to go through-- so it would be starting Wednesday the 5th as we had talked about-- potentially going through Sunday the 9th.

That is apparently not final yet. I am bring it to your attention, because we will definitely be going Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday of next week.

Whether we will go through the weekend or restart on Monday-- I think is still up in the air-- at issue. But we will have more finality on that within the next couple of days-- certainly before we recess the Court for this session. Is there anything else I need to address on the record?

Defense (Coombs)

No, your Honor.

Prosecution (Fein)

No, your Honor.

Prosecution (Fein)

Court is in recess.

ALL RISE