US v. Pfc. Manning is being conducted in de facto secrecy. For more information on the lack of public and press access to United States v. Pfc. Manning, visit the Center for Constitutional Rights, which filed a petition requesting the Army Court of Criminal Appeals (ACCA) "to order the Judge to grant the public and press access to the government's motion papers, the court's own orders, and transcripts of proceedings, none of which have been made public to date."
This transcript was taken at the Article 39(a) session of United Stated v. Pfc. Manning at Fort Meade, Maryland on November 30, 2012.
Judge: Army Col. Denise Lind
Prosecution: Major Ashden Fein, Captain Joe Morrow, Captain Angel Overgaard, Captain Hunter Whyte, Captain Alexander Von Elton
Defense: Mr. David Coombs, Captain Joshua Tooman, Major Thomas Hurley
Please be seated. This Article 39(a) Session is called to
order. Let the record reflect all
parties present when the Court last recessed are again present in Court. Major Fein have there been some photos
that have been substituted for the record? And, Mr. Coombs?
Yes there have your Honor. They have been marked as appellate exhibit 425.
Alright, that would be photographs for the depiction of the cell
that was on the floor yesterday. I
believe it's gone. And, does either
side any objections to substitutions of photographs for the record?
No, your Honor.
And, for the record counsel and I met yesterday in an RCM 802
conference. Once again, that's a
conference where I talk about scheduling and logistics issues in the case with
counsel, and we have made some adjustments to the trial calendar.
We had scheduled to go all the way through Sunday this week
[December 2, 2012] with the witnesses for the Article 13. It appears we will not be able to get
through all the witnesses by Sunday. So, we have amended the Court calendar. Originally the case was next set to go
from the 10th through the 14th of December. We have cancelled that session. Instead, we will be going the 5th, 6th,
7th of December.
That's next Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. And, we will make further adjustments to
the trial calendar based on that change-- counsel and I are going to meet at
some point even tonight or later on this weekend to finalize the remainder of
the trial calendar, but there will be some changes. And, that change was made with the
consent of both sides, is that correct?
Yes, your Honor.
Is there anything else we need to address before we continue with
Alright, Pfc. Manning. I believe you were on the stand.
Pfc. Manning, I remind you, you are under oath.
Private First Class Manning, other than the one
time I was in front of you briefly in the case, we have never actually spoken
before today, correct?
You mean in October of 2011? Yes, sir.
Yes, November of 2011?
So, all the information that I have is based
off of your witness testimony, discovery as you referenced yesterday,
recordings, and only that information. Not, anything from you?
What I would like to first focus your attention
on Private Frist Class Manning is your cell, as you walked through yesterday,
and comparing that to disciplinary cells that you were not ever actually in at
Quantico, at least to the best of-- of the prosecution's knowledge.
You were in a standard cell under POI and MAX custody, correct?
For Special Quarters?
And, you had three walls, a toilet, a sink, a
rack, and the bars in front?
And, you are in a cell that had a skylight in
Further down the hallway, yes, sir.
And, a wall of windows that we saw in the
There were windows at the end of the hallway,
And, natural light could come into the windows,
but necessarily directly through your bars, right in front of your cell?
You did not have a steel door, directly in
front of you?
You didn't have a steel door in front of the
bars that were...?
You did not live in the quarters that only had
a small window or half, and that was available at Quantico?
And while at Quantico, you lived where all the
other pretrial detainees lived?
For a significant portion, yes, sir. I believe the first couple weeks I was
there. They still had a housing
unit-- another area where they had people.
But when you-- when you for instance left to do
rec hall, or go visit the counselor, had a defense attorney meeting, and you
walked by at time other cells, and they were the same as yours?
Now to talk about the smock that you-- you
showed or you demonstrated for the Court yesterday.
Yesterday, you testified at one point you were
stuck in your smock and Corporal Sanders had to assist you in getting your arms
[missed but affirmative as in, 'Yes, sir']
And, another incident occurred on about 13
I don't recall the date. It was mid-March. Yes, sir.
And, that night that your arms got stuck, you
decided to sleep with your arms inside the smock?
I believe I got into that position as I was falling
asleep. So, I-- I might have
naturally just done that, not really aware of, you know, doing it purposely,
But, you were told not to put your arms inside
of the smock?
That you needed a blanket to cover up your arms
if they got cold?
Now to go...to go prior to showing up in
Quantico. I'd like to focus your
attention on Kuwait.
While in Kuwait you admitted to being suicidal?
You admitted to making two nooses and scavenged
for metal objects that could cause harm to yourself?
I don't know about the metal objects. And, I don't know about two nooses.
I certainly made one...I certainly made one
that I know of, sir. I-- the sheet noose, in particular, the one that I
And, when speaking to your psychiatrist
downrange, Captain Richardson.--
--about your suicidal ideation, did you
describe yourself as being patient?
I'm not-- I'm not sure. I just remember being patient wanting to
get off of suicide risk. I don't
know if there was a misinterpretation of that. But, I could see how my words were
construed that way or [missed a few words] Captain Richardson.
Okay. And then-- when you arrived in Quantico-- well you arrived in Quantico on
29 July 2010?
And, when you arrived on your in processing
form, you stated to the question, 'Have you ever considered suicide?' you
checked the box, yes?
I was-- I was told that I had to by-- I mean,
they didn't tell me I had to. They
said-- cause as I'm going through I have the-- I had the guards assisting--
I mean I was-- I was in restraints, so I
couldn't complete the paperwork without them. And, I didn't think that they were sort
of observing whatever I wrote, and everything else.
But, they-- Corporal-- then Corporal Hanks--
Gunnery Sergeant Hanks instructed-- instructed me that I had to answer
everything in particular-- in that row and I did not. I mean I did do that. I put a 'not' in there, sir.
But, he didn't order you to say, 'Yes' or 'No'
in the check box?
Correct, Sir. He just asked the question, you know,
'You are on suicide risk. You were on suicide risk in Kuwait. Shouldn't you...?' It was more of an implied question,
rather than order, sir.
So, for the question, 'Have you ever considered
suicide?' you checked the box, yes?
And, then on that same form there is a space to
where you can fill in any comments?
And, you, in your own handwriting wrote,
'Always planning, and never acting'.
Yes. I was told that if I checked the box that I had to put something down in
that particular location. I could
have put [missed word]. I could
have put something in...something other than that. That is what I put down there, sir.
Now to speak about the two nooses, what has
been marked as-- well photo substitution as appellate exhibit 416, your
Honor. Do you recognize this sheet?
I do, sir.
Is this the sheet that you made a noose out of?
Your Honor, what has been marked as appellate
exhibit 417. Private First Class
Manning, do you recognize these sandbag ties?
Yes, sir. Those were found-- I was told that those were found in my cell, and yes,
they are sandbag ties.
And the noose that you made out of these
I don't recall-- I don't recall constructing a
noosed out of them, but they were found in my cell.
Okay. What about the two metal objects that were also collected by CID at the
Those were found in my-- near my cell, or
outside my cell, sir.
Okay. Now to focus your time, or continue to
focusing your time at the beginning-- your time at Quantico, when asked by
Gunny Blenis at the beginning when you started at Quantico, you told him that
you had made a noose out of sandbag ties?
No, sir. I told him that sandbag-- that I had [missed] had been to me that
sandbag ties were found in my cell at a particular moment, and that I didn't
just do that.
Okay, but you also-- didn't-- well, did you
tell him about the bed sheet noose?
I did, sir.
That is his-- just to be clear I am talking
about when you first arrived, in your first counseling session.
Not in subsequent ones?
End of July 2010.
[Missed. Not clear if Manning said, 'about that time']
Okay. And, you did or did not tell him also about the two metal objects that
were also found?
I did not.
So, what I would like to do now is-- is kind of
the same line of questioning about your suicidal ideations, focus on 7 January
2011? As you probably remember
yesterday you testified that, that is when you finally decided to submit a
chit, a DD Form 5-10, about your POI status?
And, that was on 7 January? That date is when you decided to ask for
a review of your classification status?
To the commander, yes, sir.
Okay, and can you describe for the Court the
process of how you submit that chit to the commander?
I requested for a DD Form 5-10, which is-- the
Marines Corps calls it's forms 'chits'. So, it is referred to as a 5-10 'chit'.
And then I requested for-- and I had to do this
during correspondence time, sir.
So, I was given a pen. And, I filled out-- I filled out the
necessary portion section 'request to'. And, I kept-- and I filled out one, and then I filled out another,
labeled as 'copy', and then initialed that one, which I'd have, sir.
And then once you fill out the document, what
do you physically do with it?
I had the option of either giving to the guard
or requesting for the cart to actually be-- for the special-- for the forms
that were written for the commander had a cart, in which there were two mail
boxes. One for, I think the
Inspector General and one for the commander.
And, I place the one for the commander-- I
asked, Lance Corporal Bell, to put it into the-- to the mailbox-- the box for
the Brig CO [Commanding Officer] the [missed] outbox, or drop box.
And then, he placed it in it, or I-- or I did.
So, [missed] through the feed tray, and put it in, sir.
And, so like this old ballot box had a lock on
So, the guards can't just poke them in and take
out anything that is submitted by a detainee?
So it's for the IG and the Brig CIO?
And, so you submitted that on 21 January or 7
On 7...on 7 January, and I filled out two.
So, I filled out one for my-- my [missed]. I put in a 5-10 chit in mid-December and
I don't know if that ever got anywhere. If it got lost or [missed], sir.
So, why didn't the...December was that in the
box, or did you give that to the guard?
I gave that to just the guard. I did not put it in the box.
So, that was a chit that you filled out for
anyone in the facility, but not the one specifically designed for the Brig CO
So, the one that you filled out on 7 January
and dated 7 January on the top, right on the form, that one you submitted it
went into the box, the locked box?
That was 7 January of 2011?
Thank you. And was that chit that you submitted to Chief Averhart in a locked box,
was that responded to?
Not immediately, Sir.
Okay. But, when was it responded to?
It might have been sometime a week maybe two
weeks later. I had brought it up
with my chain of command, like company commander, and then--
--it's Captain Casamatta. That was my company commander, so.
And, what did you request in that chit?
I requested-- I don't remember-- I don't
remember-- I don't recall exactly what I was requesting from it, but
essentially I outlined the sections of the Brig order that I looked at that I
And, I requested for a Classification &
Assignment board, or to at least to attend one or have-- have-- have one in
regards to my prevention of injury status, sir.
And, on 21 January you went before the board?
So, on 21 January 2011, you appeared before the
Yes, sir. I physically attended that, sir.
And, when you attended there, you were asked
why you had made the statement, 'Always planning, and never acting'?
And, you answered then that-- that statement,
when you had made it originally may have been false?
Yes. Yes, sir.
And then another member of the board-- there's
three members of the board?
There were three in attendance. There was
Gunnery Sergeant Blenis-- then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, Gunnery Sergeant
Fuller, and another like a member, but he's a Staff Sergeant. I don't recall.
So, then another member of the board said, 'If
that may have been false, then should we believe-- why should we believe
whether you are going to harm yourself today?'
And you answered, 'yes' to that?
It was a lot more of a-- it wasn't just the
'yes', sir. It was part of a-- of a
lengthy sort of-- you know, philosophical-- I mean that was a philosophical
So, I did that-- said, 'This is a philosophical
question, [missed word],' sir. It
was a more general answer-- wasn't-- he wanted an intellectual answer to that,
Well, what was the, I guess, the intellectual
I mean there's-- I mean, there's-- there's a
lot of things in regards to, you know, whether something is false or otherwise
something is true, you know-- if he was infallible and, you know it's hard to--
it's hard to gauge things, you know, without evidence. So, that-- I was just pretty broad with
Well, what about evidence? But, then again on
the form that they were referencing at the time and they were discussing--
--that is correct, Sir.
--what you had written, which was 'Always
planning'-- in your handwriting, 'Always planning, never acting'?
But then you said, that you didn't really mean
And, so this-- this intellectual conversation
that you, I guess in your eyes, finally getting at the Brig, was about whether
you meant it then or you were being truthful today, then, on 21 January, that
you were not suicidal?
I-- I thought it was more about-- about, at
that particular time-- and I didn't-- I mean I didn't-- I didn't realize that
they were trying to do that, but I was thinking at that particular moment.
Okay. And, then after that the third member of the board actually reiterated
and asked you, 'Do you understand the question?' Just to make sure there was no confusion,
and you answered, 'yes'.
So, on 21 January 2011, when you went before
the board for the first time, when asked you still hadn't provided the Brig
officials with a clear answer of what you meant, when you said, 'Always
planning, never acting'?
I did-- I did say that it might have been
It was a sarcastic answer, given, you know,
just out on a whim, because I knew I was going to be placed on suicide risk
I mean that was-- I had been told that. And,
because I was placed on it in Kuwait, sir, it didn't really make a difference,
what answer I gave, because-- I mean-- I was going to be placed on the same
status, sir. [Missed a statement.]
But, if that was the reason, then why would you
ask then to go before the board?
Cause this was, you had said that this was your
first chance that you had thought about, I mean that is what you said
yesterday-- to get before the board to tell them your side of the story about
why you shouldn't be on POI?
But, then when you are given the opportunity,
you didn't-- you didn't take it?
I did, as far-- as far I understood the
process, I did. I just told them
that today, you know-- in January 2011-- again January 2011, I am not
I'm not trying-- I am not trying to harm myself
or anything like that, you know, I didn't understand the relevance of-- and
that one of the things-- and I think that was the issue I was having, is that I
didn't understand the relevance of the July 29, 2010 form-- cause it was so far
I hadn't even-- I had actually forgotten that--
that had even been written down, sir.
So, on 21 January you're saying, something you
actually said yesterday too, at that board your first chance to really confront
--that-- well, your thought of confronting
these issues, you had forgotten what you had written down?
I had forgotten about that form, yes. I forgotten about the intake form.
Okay. Are you familiar when you and your defense counsel submitted a 138
You know, sir, I know that I put-- I know
that-- I think I told the Brig staff about it before it was filed--
--sir. I knew-- cause I knew what he was gathering, I just didn't know when Mr.
Coombs had officially filed it, sir.
Okay. So, when he officially filed it on 19
January, two days before the board, that laid out everything we have been
talking about, including the original form classification--
--you didn't know-- you didn't remember until
21 January that, that's what you wrote on the form?
I had completely forgot about that, sir.
So, even though on 18 January, when the video
that we watched yesterday was filled, and you had the discussion with Chief
Blenis about that, you didn't remember three days later at the C&A board?
Wasn't the C&A before that, sir?
No. The C&A board was on 21 January. The video that we watched yesterday was
filmed on 18 January.
And, you had that discussion on that video we
watched yesterday with Chief Blenis, about why did you write on the form, why
did you make the nooses, why there are inconsistencies there, and you both had
a dialogue back and forth...
--parts of it.
--so then when you had the chance to go before
the board on 21 January, you didn't take that opportunity to even explain to
the three board panel, why it was that you made that decision to write that
down on the form?
I did. I mean-- whenever asked about it, I did. At least, I felt I did, sir.
But, you just said that you didn't remember
I'd-- I'd forgotten about the form. That is what I said.
Okay. So in that 3 day period you had forgotten about the form?
I would like to do now-- kind of-- direct your
attention to-- is the different avenues that you had to logged complaints of
You just spoke about one, and article 138
process. Did you know about the 138
process before being, I guess, detained in pretrial confinement?
I had seen an ask.com article about it in 2009,
but I had never really gotten into such-- the depth of it, sir.
So, I knew that it existed, sir, but not really
in terms of exact context [missed a few words], sir.
I assume also it is not something that is
normally talked about everyday, the 138 process?
So, you did submit through counsel on 19
January an Article 138 complaint?
In January, yes, sir.
And, yesterday you testified about the MRE
[Military Rules for Evidence] 305(g) re-evaluation of your pretrial confinement
status to your UCMJ [Uniform Code of Military Justice] command, you submitted
on 13 January 2011?
That's the Special Court Martial Convening
To Colonel Coffman?
You are also aware that-- that Mr. Coombs on
your behalf, submitted to Chief Averhart directly a memo requesting
re-evaluation on 5 January 2011?
On 5 January? I don't-- I don't recall that one, sir.
I had put in-- I had put in the 5-10 not
realizing that, that had [missed word], sir.
I thought I was doing that, sir.
Well, I am actually talking about something
completely different, so you did, at least from the documentation in discovery,
you did file a 5-10; but I am just talking about separately on 5 January, that
your defense counsel on your behalf submitted directly to Chief Averhart, a
Okay, yes, sir. I did not-- I did not recall that.
Okay. So-- so these three formal-- more formal
requests were submitted on your behalf, and then like you just talked about,
the fourth way, is you had the chit and DD 5-10 process either informally with
a guard or formally through the locked box?
But, you also had other avenues to seek redress
directly, didn't you? You did?
I mean, I can verbally ask, that's one.
Well, Colonel Oltman visited you periodically?
A colonel did, a Marines colonel. I don't-- I don't-- they came through
periodically, sir. I don't-- they
didn't really introduce themselves very [deeply?], sir.
Okay. Cause I don't think there were even name tags given?
They do, but I don't-- I look at the rank
first. Or I look at it--
Sure. That makes sense. But,
periodically Marines colonels, or a colonel, multiple colonels would come
through? And, have discussion with
I wouldn't-- well, they would come by and I
would see them, and they would see me, sir.
You had other avenues of using privileged
Yes, sir, [missed statement].
[Missed] [Sergeant? David? First?]. He's a Chaplain, visit you?
I did have a chaplain visit me, yes, sir.
Did you make any special requests to have
certain chaplains visit you?
No, sir. We had a chaplain that came by weekly, if not weekly, then at least once
or a few times a month, sir.
And, you mentioned the IG. You know that you had a lock box that
you could submit issues to the Inspector General?
I did. I-- it was also, I 'm not familiar with how the [missed word] system
works, because the requests [missed] system as well.
But, I-- on both of those, the Inspector
General and request [missed] for the Marine Corps. I was not familiar with how that process
But, when the cart would roll by there was a
box that you could submit some papers in, at least, maybe a form, maybe not,
but some-- something in a locked box to get to the IG?
Also, members of your command, they visited
you, almost every week?
Yes. At least once every week, sir.
We will talk about that in a little bit, but--
so, you had a lot of options to exercise as far as getting redress or lodging
any forms of complaints about your treatments status or anything else going on?
But, you never asked the chaplain to help you
No. I mentioned about the prevention of injury with the chaplain pretty
Did you ever ask a chaplain to assist you in
understanding why or to change your status?
I talked to him about it. I didn't necessarily make a formal request
with him, but I mentioned the fact that I really wanted to get off of the
status, and then I stopped.
I was surprised that I was still on it. And, you know we talked, and then-- he
was somebody that, you know-- and we had-- he kept-- he was the only other
person that I could talk to on sort of an 'at level' basis, sir.
But he had, I mean, he had other-- he didn't
have a lot of time. So, I didn't
[missed statement] him or anything. And, I am not-- I'm not a religious person,
but [missed statement]. I would still talk with him.
What do you mean by 'at level', like you just
said it today, and you said it many times yesterday? What do you mean by 'at level' basis?
It's-- it's-- there's a moment-- I mean as a
junior enlisted person-- that I'm
engaged at to where you can speak with a-- somebody that is of a higher rank
with you, you know, where you-- the ranks are-- it's-- it's set aside for a
moment, sir, but it [missed a phrase] a person to person conversation, as
opposed to a subordinate and a superior, sir.
Okay. Is it the rank that is set aside or is it just being completely relaxed
and having this kind of intellectual conversation?
It's-- it's-- I'd say it is both, sir. Cause-- I mean, you really do have to--
at that moment in my mind, sir, sort of set aside the fact that you're in a
subordinate and a superior relationship.
Okay. And, what was the Chaplain's name that
you said you talked all the time about your POI status?
I don't recall his name. I filled-- I gave to-- I gave to-- I
put-- I remember that I told Captain Casamatta his name whenever he put that
down on the form. But, I don't-- I
don't recall his name.
But, it was a male chaplain?
And, maybe Marines don't have chaplains?
I guess-- I guess he was. He wore the Marines Corps uniform, sir.
Okay. It was the ACU uniform?
Okay. Did you ever file anything into the IG slot that was locked and would go
right to the IG?
Earlier you spoke about the chit's, DD form
And, you filed six chits while you're at
I think I filed more, but some-- some-- they
had a tendency-- some of the ones that were given just directly to the guards
had a tendency of going missing.
Well I think you are right, first off because I
can't count [missed]. So, at least nine?
I would say it would have to be at least-- at
least a dozen, sir.
And you knew about this chit DD form 5-10
process from the day you in-processed?
From the day I in processed at Kuwait.
Oh. You knew about it in Kuwait?
Yes. All-- all military correction facilities utilized the DD form-- the DD
form 5-10 system or a modification like that.
What do they call it at the JRCF?
They modify it to their military correctional
complex 5-10 forms. So, that it's a
modified DD form 5-10. They just
remove some of the administrative things for the facility they use it as, sir.
Does it have a common name other than like,
'chit' that they use at--
--[missed last few words].
Makes sense. I would like to go through some of
these. If you don't remember,
please let me know, and I will help refresh your memory?
The one that you dated on the 7th of January
2011, Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart, that was the one that you put into a
locked box for him?
Correct, sir. And I-- and I-- and I made a duplicate
for my own purposes, sir.
And you wrote on there, 'request lifting' or
'subject for purposes of the interview'-- now they use the term interview, is
it really-- does it always necessarily mean 'interview' like one on one
No. It's just the way the form is set up, sir.
So, what-- what is-- what is the different ways
you can use this form?
So, you can use it just to request to speak to
somebody. You can sometimes use it
just for anything-- put your-- just your request in general without wanting to
You can-- basically it's your-- it's the
formal-- it's the semi formal way of communicating with the staff at a
correctional facility [missed word], sir.
Okay. So, on this one dated 7 January, you wrote, 'request lifting your
prevention of injury status and custody classification review including Brig
justification of MAX custody status'? And, then you cited the different rules within the regulations?
The-- the-- I only had access to the Brig Order
at that time, sir, so.
Okay. So, the rules and regulations of the Brig?
On 4 January-- so one submitted three days
beforehand, you did one requesting books from your aunt?
2011? Yes, I think so.
Specifically, even the books you were asking
for you talked about yesterday, 'People's History of the United States', 'A
Journey in my Political Life', 'Good Soldier' David Finkel-- so, you requested
that. Did you get those books?
Some of them. I put a-- I put a-- I put a broad list
of them. I didn't-- they weren't
necessarily books that I was going to receive. Just a-- I put a-- sort of a shot gun
approach, which one's my aunt was going to send me.
By shot gun approach, you mean just everything
you could think of she'll send, and hopefully some of the-- some of them will
Okay. And, when they showed up, did you get those books by the Brig?
Not-- not immediately, but I did eventually get
them. Yes, sir.
So, they approved you receiving books, and you
Yes, sir. They have a-- they have a process, but I forgot how exactly that worked,
but they had a-- they had a process [missed a few words].
On the 19th of December of 2010, you submitted
a request for an emergency phone call with attorney reference Vice President
That is correct, sir.
And, did you get that phone call with your
I don't know. I had a-- I eventually got an attorney
phone call. I was requesting one
more immediately than that, because I had heard something strange going on,
Okay. Well did you talk to him the next day at 12:25?
Yes, Sir. But, I-- I think the immediacy went away after that [missed].
But, you didn't at the time necessarily know if
it was cause your attorney couldn't be gotten a hold of or whether they
couldn't figure out the system to make it happen?
Correct. I'm not privy to that.
Sure. On 13 December 2010, so a few days, almost a week before the Vice
President Biden chit, you asked for 'request gift books from family and friends
for online purchases do not know what the contents of the books are'?
So is that again the shot gun approach [missed]
you don't know even what they are, but you just want them?
Yes, sir. And, that was denied, sir.
I'm sorry, what?
And, that was denied, sir.
Okay, and then how-- how about-- how did--
explain to the Court how it is you would know to even submit these chits for
these types of requests.
The process is outlined in there-- in the
facility's 'Rules and Regulation for'-- that they issue to an inmate, sir.
Well, I assume that no need to even [missed a
few words ask? the? Marines?], you would find out from your family and friends
that you were-- .they were intending to send you something?
Sometimes in [conferences?], sir.
And-- and then you would then ask to get the
ones that arrived [missed word]?
And then the Brig would have to react based off
your request? Answer your requests?
Of course. I mean [missed statement].
So, on the 13 of December it was denied, but
you were also told that it was denied that you needed some specificity, so they
could put it through that process that you just spoke of?
As you [missed] back in time, so the 21st of
--you asked to make an addition to your mailing
and visitation list? This was for
Glenn Greenwald, a friend from New York City?
Yes, sir. That is true.
And so the mail and visitation list, this was a
list of who could visit, who you authorized to visit and who you authorized to
send you mail - anyone could send you mail - but, who you authorized to send
you mail that you would receive?
That is correct. That is [true?].
Were you authorized or based off this request,
were you allowed to add Mr. Glenn Greenwald to the list?
On the 15th - again six days before - 15th of
November 2010, you were requested receipt of periodical, monthly periodical,
And, you even gave the ordered date? Did you receive authorization to get
Definitely. Yes, sir. [Missed last few words].
Actually, you were very consistent. Six days, again before 9 November 2010,
you requested a discussion regarding recording or monitoring of privileged
communication and command conduct?
Will you please explain that?
What was the date on that?
I'm sorry, your Honor. 9 November 2010.
It was-- I mean I don't-- I don't recall
exactly what precipitated that, sir. But, I did generally have a concern about what was-- what was and what
was not being recorded, whenever I was talking to the command and who was--
and-- and their-- the listening capability of using the phone that was in the
backroom for the attorney phone calls.
Can you-- can you please explain - kind of back
up a little bit--
--I don't think yesterday you explained this--
just adding more detail for the Court.
Did you say backroom phone, explain, so--- I
guess first question is: where did you typically speak to your attorneys for
Privileged communications-- we'd-- normally
took place, whenever they were telephonic, there was a telephone, a-- I'm
guessing that a DSF phone or for that-- in special quarters it was, what use to
be-- I mean they still have-- they still had the 'Chief's Office' sign on
I remember it was just a-- it was just sort of
a storage area in which that telephone was there. There was a chair and a table.
And, they allowed or they had inmates,
including myself, sit there and make-- we would hold the telephone up to the
ear and talk to our counsel. The
guard would put in the telephone number, sir.
Okay. So they would put the telephone number in, and then you are in a closed
office with privacy to talk to your...?
Not always closed. No, sir.
Okay, so you were concerned that it wasn't
Yes, sir. Sometimes the guards would sit in the room with me.
During your conversations with your attorneys?
And, you were concerned about that and you told
And, I had the same concern regarding--
because, I had been told that or I had been notified that my visitations were
being monitored and that I was filling out forms for visitors, and I was
I was confused about-- I was confused about
whether or not that was the same for command, so between Captain Casamatta or
First Sergeant Williams, whenever they came, whether they-- that fell under the
same sort of service agreement with the Marines Corps.
And, they weren't recorded, were they?
I believe I was told that they were, sir.
Did you sign forms every time?
I did not--
--but the sign was still there, and so-- the
Brig staff would advise me that all of my communications, except for-- except
for clergy and attorney phone calls would be recorded, and then everything else
could just be, you know, monitored by the guards, but not really recorded [missed last two words].
So, you just wanted clarification of that, and
then after that point you did not-- or before you never signed the consent to
monitoring when you met with Captain Casamatta, Lieutenant [Barnard?], or First
I did not. I did not. I was told that--
that I did not need to [missed, but essentially did not sign a consent form
because they were in the military, so they did not need to give consent for
monitoring or recording]. They were
Okay. And then the last part of that. That was when you had the confidential communications-- well, when you
have your communications with defense counsel you would go to the other
What about telephone calls that were recorded
or from your cell, how did that work?
There was a-- and then there was a-- it was a
phone that was on a cart, so it had wheels and a long wire which would go into
the observation booth, and there was a-- you would pick up the phone and then
there was-- it was a-- it would request for your pin number and a lot of other
I don't remember exactly how it work. There is a very similar system at the
So, because you were in MAX and POI status they
would literally wheel a phone over to your-- to the front of your cell?
If-- If I had requested it.
Okay. Now-- thank you. Going now
to the next chit in the line on a-- I think it is 4 November 2010. You had a request for including pay [missed
word], including getting copies of your leave and earning statements?
Yes. I wasn't sure where to direct those.
--at the time, but eventually directed to-- to
go through command for that, sir.
Okay. So, they answered that chit as well?
I don't believe that the facility had to,
because-- it was not their responsibility.
Okay. Your command fixed that for you?
And then on 7 August 2010, you requested
'disposition and accessibility of attorney delivered further for Major Hurley'?
Well, can you explain what happened there?
I had a-- I had a packet of documents that
Major Hurley wanted to be received-- or that asked for-- for me to see-- or
asked me to keep and go through, and those were confiscated and I never-- I
still don't know what happened to this day with those documents.
So, you didn't-- so they never answered the
chit or they could not find [missed word] what you were talking about?
They told me that I was not allowed to have it,
sir. And, that was-- it was being
reviewed or something like that, sir.
Right. So, they answered it, but just not with
an answer necessarily that-- that you-- you wanted or hoped to get?
No. It wasn't an answer that I really understood.
So, I believe I received that answer from the
Army liaison as opposed to Gunnery Sergeant Blenis-- or I think it was Staff
It was the Army liaison, the Army rep at the
And, he was also a counselor, not necessarily
my counselor, but a counselor, sir.
Your Honor, the United States would like marked
the-- these chits that we just went through.
[Missed phrase]. Can I see them please?
Are you using them both?
[to judge] No. No, your Honor. But, we would like them marked as
So, if we do any other enclosures or a [missed
a few words]. [to witness] Private
First class Manning, so it's been almost an hour, do you need a comfort break?
No. I'm good, sir.
So, few times-- right now command visits. Yesterday, you testified that you really
liked your company commander, Captain Casamatta and First Sergeant [missed
Yes, he's the best.
First Sergeant Williams or Casamatta?
Both of them, sir.
And-- and-- and then Lieutenant [Barnard? and
Captain [Barn?] [missed word].
And Captain [Barnard?] and First Sergeant
Williams are your current company commander and First Sergeant?
They are the ones who visited within 48 hours
of your arriving at Quantico?
Within 24 hours, sir.
Within 24 hours. You also met your Battalion commander, I
think, at that time, Lt. Col. Leiker?
I met somebody from Operations, I believe it
was the Operations Chief. It was an
S3 like position.
I don't recall if it was somebody, who came in
to represent the Battalion commander. And, then I actually met the Battalion commander within-- within a few
days of arriving, sir.
So, you arrive and your Army chain of command
showed up to explain your new command structure and made sure that you
understood that you aren't just being left in a sea of Marines?
And, they visited you, you said, earlier this
morning on average every other week about?
Yesterday you gave an example of how you asked
for a new tennis shoes or athletic shoes and they somehow even obtained your
original ones from Fort Drum?
While you visited with them, you had
discussions with them, and then they always asked a series of questions?
In fact, you became so good at answering
questions that you would sometimes give them the answers, because you knew
which questions were coming up next?
If-- if the forms were the same, yes, sir. Because, they did change at some point
the form, sir.
So, could you explain the form you are talking
about to the Court?
They would-- the company or I don't-- I don't--
I don't know what level, but the company was using a form for checking up on
me, to make sure they ask the same questions for the command visit every single
time as well as giving me the opportunity to-- to speak about any issues that
might not necessarily be on the form.
So, there is a exhaustive list of about I think
[130?] or something questions are on it.
Your Honor, for your reference this is
enclosure 26 to appellate exhibit 259, and, appellate exhibit 259 is the
Government response to Article 13.
Private First Class Manning, what I would like
to do is run through this form real quick. Just the generic example, not talking about any specific [missed]--
--[missed a few words] and then ask you a few
questions about these questions. So, the form-- well, first there's one--
this-- this form was a two pages long?
Double-sided maybe. I-- I think [missed word] more than two
pages if it is not double-sided, sir.
And, sometimes you answered the questions by
writing, and other times they asked you and they wrote it down?
I-- I usually it was almost always verbal. They did it-- although one officer
required an initial or something like that, but I don't recall when that was.
Okay. But at the end of it, after you all had your discussion, and you went
through the question on the form, then you would sign the form?
And date it?
Correct, sir. Except for one occasion, when First
Sergeant Williams did not have physical access to me. He-- I don't know what
happened on that form, but I did not sign that form, sir.
And, I think there was actually I think a few occasions
where-- where there wasn't a form used and it was just written out on a piece
Yes. Sometimes they would forget the form. But, we would still go through as many
questions as we can to represent [missed word] their efforts.
So, the first question, 'Do you have any
medical conditions?' you have to
answer 'yes' or 'no'?
And then it's [missed word] 'Have you requested
care at all for those medical conditions? Did you obtain,' said, 'Yes or no?'?
And then it's so 'Was the medical response
timely?' 'Yes or no?'
Next major question, 'Do you have any dental
needs?' So medical then
dental? Dental needs, you answer
'Yes or no?' 'If so, have you
I don't believe that-- I believe that was added
later. I [missed a few words]
question. I don't believe that--
because I requested for medical, but I requested for dental, cause I-- at some
point there wasn't-- that they didn't have-- they didn't ask that particular
[Missed. Perhaps, 'One moment' but not
certain]. Before we keep going,
just frame of reference, do you remember receiving any of these form before 19
August, cause the first form I have is 19 August 2010?
It was-- it was-- early August so the-- so it
would have been the 3rd of August for the very first time, I believe, sir. I'm guessing-- I'm guessing-- I'm just
--I'm not gonna [missed a few word], but within
first ten days that I was there.
Okay, so. And, then they-- the command used at this point, you said earlier, some
variant of this form through even when they visit today, and at Fort
Leavenworth or a local facility that you might be housed at?
Your Honor, for purpose, you could probably can
see that right now, the form.
There are no, at least here, forms before 19
Okay, so after dental needs the next [missed]
question is, 'Have you been visited by your unit?' which also might seem odd,
since they are asking you, and they are the unit?
Well, I mean that form was for-- it wasn't
necessarily just specifically for me, sir.
Okay. So, it says 'Have you been visited by your unit? Yes or no?' and then it even asks, 'Who
had visited you in the past?'
And, then 'When was that last visit?'
Yes, sir. [Missed small bit]. United States Army Garrison as well,
sir. I believe. It's always the same or continuous for--
But, for other soldiers in confinement that
have some other things that there...there broad [width?] questions and there
broad [width?] answers. [Missed last statement], sir.
Okay. I think even one time you had someone do it who was not the XO
[Executive Officer] Commander or First Sergeant. I think Chief [Wigman?]?
I-- something alone those lines, sir.
Then next major question, 'Had you been visited
by a chaplain?' like we talked about earlier?
And, you answer, 'Yes or no?'
Who visited you? When was the last time they
And then, well, other next major question, 'Are
you putting your uniforms and other clothing out for cleaning?' So, they are making sure that you are at
least getting your uniforms cleaned?
And then a series of questions about when that
happened or when you would get them back?
Then the next question-- major question, is
about getting-- having showers? 'Are you allowed to shower?'
And then, with that, 'You have soap, shaving
gear, and a towel?'
And sometimes the answers were, 'No,' and you
asked them for help with that?
Next major question, 'Are you being offered
recreation time each day?' And
--'any issues with that?'
Okay. And, then 'How long?' They
would ask how long you do rec call for?
And how often, sir.
Next question, 'Do you have telephone access?'
And, then, 'Have you made any calls?'
And then, 'How many calls have you made?'
So, these aren't just 'Yes or no?' questions,
some of them elicited actual responses?
[Missed answer but affirmative].
And then questions making sure you had adequate
access to your defense attorney? Do
you have telephone-- so, specifically 'Do you have telephonic access to your
Certainly. Yes, sir.
'Has your defense attorney visited you here?'
So, they are asking about physical visitation?
And they had, 'Have you visited your defense
attorney?' as well? Why-- why--
what is the difference there?
Well, just in case I have to go someplace, to a
TDS [Trial Defense Service] office that might normally be on post, or something
like that. But, again the form is
designed for more broad [missed word], not necessarily just me, sir.
So, did you ever visit with your defense
counsel outside of Quantico Brig, while you were confined there?
Yes, sir. We met at a few times at Fort Meyer.
So, your chain of command would go sign you out
of Quantico and bring you to Fort Meyer, Virginia?
Military District of Washington would
I don't have-- it was the Army. Yes, sir.
Okay. So, someone in the Army, like on behalf of the commander would show up
and then bring you to the TDS office?
What about-- since we already talked about it--
what about medical appointments and dental appointments? How did those...explain to the Court how
those worked, please?
Medical and dental appointments from-- as far
as the Brig and the [missed word] at Quantico base were concerned, were not
They considered those to be the unit's
responsibility, and so accordingly I would make those requests to my command--
my Army command.
And then, when you made that request, they
would then-- the Army command would show up and-- and take you to those
But the Brig did have a corpsmen, a medic on
staff, that would visit?
Not the Brig. The Quantico base-- the Quantico base
sort of had an Officer Candidate School that was nearby, in which the corpsmen
would travel over occasionally, if there was an emergency or something-- like
Okay. Okay. Now looking at what is
typically page two, then the next major question is, 'Do you have access to the
'Yes or no?' questions, 'If yes, are you
reading material offered to you at your cell?'
Then, the next one now starts talking about
chow. So, 'Are you being fed
Next question and then, '[Missed]...'
--'[missed]?' Wait, I'm sorry, 'How many?'...
--'How many meals?'
Okay, 'How many meals?'
'Whether they are hot ones?'
And, that's the next question. 'Whether they are hot?' So, you even remember today, these
The next big question, almost like the case
here, 'Have you had any visitors other than the chain of command?'
So, they were concerned whether you were
They are concerned with visits, still today.
Thank you. And then they would ask, 'So, who?'
and you would tell them.
And, then they would ask when was the last
Sir, yes, sir.
And then, if there was any issues surrounding
The next major question is, 'If the inmate is
on suicide watch or injury prevention?' and then the first question cause that
is the topic, 'How long have you been on suicide watch or injury prevention?'
The next question is, 'Do you understand why
you are on suicide watch or prevention-- injury prevention?'
'When was the last time you saw a doctor,
therapist, or counselor?'
'If so what was the visit--' or 'Was that visit
on post or at the Brig?'
Next major question, 'Are you getting any
prescription medications that you need?'--
'Yes of no?' 'Did you get them in doses
prescribed?' That was the next question?
And then, 'Did you get the medication on time?'
To make sure you are actually getting what you are suppose to get what you are
suppose to get from the Brig?
And that is a 'Yes or no?' question?
The next question is-- or still is today-- was
and, 'Since my or the command's last visit, how have you been treated by the
And then the question following that, 'Since my
or the command's last visit, how have you been treated by the facility?'
The next question, 'Do you understand the
inmate grievance process or [missed word] procedure?'
And then, some specific questions about that
every single time? So, I assume
once you answered the first time, a lot of these were the same?
Correct, sir. Sometimes-- sometimes they would
not be asked [missed two words].
These-- this portion?
Yes, they would-- if they-- I mean like-- my
command would eventually start to just skip questions that-- if they were not
So, when you say that, I assume you mean like
'Did you receive an inmate [missed word]?'
Correct, sir. We would go-- skip over that.
Because, once you said 'Yes,' probably in
August of 2010, you didn't need to say it again [missed last bit].
And then, the very last question is, 'Do you
have any needs that we the command can take care of?'
And, then bottom left, you would print, sign,
date? And, then the visitor on the
bottom right would print, sign, date?
And then also, there was a-- was a-- was it a
DoD or [DA?] form? There was the
consignment facility form. I don't
know what type of form that the command rep had to sign, if there was any
issues to get to the Brig, and then you would sign too?
Yes. Normally that was a-- there is a [missed a few words] form. I would sign it, but it would be the
representative that would fill it out in terms of the written part. I was in restraints, sir.
Okay. And this was done in a visitation booth area?
A non-contact booth, yes, sir.
So, now, what I would like to do is...is just go
through some of these, and just ask you some very specific questions.
So, as far your 19 August 2010-- the first
documented command visit we have, when you were asked about, 'How have you been
treated by the guards?' Your answer
was, 'Very professional'?
And then about the facility, 'Very
And then, 'Have we taken care of all your
needs?' You of course wrote, 'Not
sure, yet' or said, 'You're not sure yet'?
That's because it was the first visit, and they
didn't have an opportunity to take care of any needs?
No, sir. I was not-- I'm not-- I
don't recall the reason why. They--
if it was-- if it was obvious.
I think that there were-- there were various
issues in terms of moving, logistics-- the logistics involved in-- where certain items were,
including my shoes, and things like that, and paperwork, being transferred
[missed a few words] from Fort Drum, and-- and my LES [Leave and Earning
Statement] and things like that [missed word].
A lot of just basic soldier issues, dealing
with a permanent change of station [missed a few words].
Now, looking at the next document 26 August
2010 they visited you, then asked about 'Do you have telephone access?' 'Yes,'
'for attorney?' 'How many calls have you made?' You actually said, 'zero,' at
that point. And then, you were
asked about treatment by the guards. You wrote or you said, 'Very professionally'?
'By the facility?' 'Very professionally' and you wrote, 'No
Yes, sir. The person asking the questions wrote that portion.
Thank you. Lt. [Barnard?]. And then,
'Is there anything we could take care of?' You actually [missed a few words]
you wrote, 'Disposition of no [missed word] needs'
This is the tennis shoes, more that likely?
More broadly, it was-- I have a lot-- I had a
lot of stuff, I know or recall whether it was in Government storage or
I had friends that had stuff. I had a lot of CIF, so Central Issue Facility,
for like equipment that was all over the place, so I wanted to make sure that
it was all accounted for and that I wouldn't have to end up paying for it, you
know-- you know-- plate gear and armor or plate carriers and things like that.
So, that way I knew where it was and that the
Army knew where it was, so [missed a few words]. So, I wouldn't have to have that
docked-- docked from my pay, sir.
Sure. And, they took care of that for you?
So, now going to the next documented check list
in 10 September 2010, when asked about the guards, still 'Professional'?
Very professional, sir.
And the facility is still, 'professional'?
'Do you have any needs that could be taken care
of?' You say, 'No'?
They-- they wrote down that.
They wrote down that?
Yes, sir. And I signed the document.
So, did have [missed word] needs, or?
[Missed a few words]-- there was a decision
made either by [missed a few words]. You know, I am not privy to how the command thinks through that--
--I am not going to question Captain
[Barnard?], Captain Casamatta, or First Sergeant William, but they would-- they
would make a decision as to whether-- I would always vocally, you know, explain
something, but sometimes they would-- I mean they would write down, 'No
issues,' and-- as opposed to, you know-- but that didn't necessarily mean that
I didn't bring anything up, sir.
Okay. So, I guess on 10 September, are you saying, you did bring something up
or that there were no issues?
On 10 September?
On 10 September--
I don't recall, but there were often times
where I would vocally-- and sometimes it would just be dealt with at that
level, and it didn't-- like no issues would be for-- like if it was an issue
that needed to be dealt with and that needed to be written down, and couldn't
be dealt with right there verbally-- then-- then it would be written down.
But, normally-- normally if there was an issue
that-- like dental and [missed word] transported, belongings and things like
that-- to remind, you know, First Sergeant Williams or Captain Casamatta, they
would write it down, sir.
Okay, so they could-- whatever command rep
showed up-- your-- the First Sergeant, XO, First Sergeant, Company Command
official-- if they could [missed a few words] right there with you, then it was
like, 'Okay. Write it down'--
--right. If they could remember it then they would just usually put down, 'No
Okay. On 17 September, I just realized that we just talked about 10 September,
so one week later 17 September-- again asked about the guards and the facility,
this time it was, 'Professionally' the way that they were treating you?
'Do you have any issues or needs?' Excuse me, not 'issues.' I know I said that before, 'needs that
need to be taken care of?' Answer was, 'No'?
That was-- that's what is on there. Yes, sir.
Now three days later, they came back on 23
September-- I am assuming this date is correct, and again your answer about the
guards and the facility is, 'Professional'--
--the way that you think that you are being
I would hope it would say, 'Very professional.'
Okay, so this time, they wrote just,
Right. They stopped putting the 'very' in the sentence, sir.
And, then again, 'Do you have any needs we need
to be taken care of?' "No.' And, then you signed the bottom left?
On 30 September, through this I just notice one
difference here, 'Are you being offered recreation time?' You say...'Yes or no?' isn't checked,
but what is hand written is, 'if it is not raining, 20 minutes'?
And now going back, on 30 September, to the
guards and the facility this time it says, 'Excellent,' and then, 'Very
professional'? So, guards were
'Excellent'? And then the facility,
I don't recall, but-- I mean, that is why I
usually say-- I'm usually, you know-- just say either-- I would start-- started
to vocally give a rating.
So, in terms of whether it was excellent
performance or, you know-- and then 'very'-- the facility, 'very
I mean-- so, that's what-- how I vocally did
it. You know, just-- just repeated
the same thing most of the time, sir.
And-- and-- and, I have mentioned this before,
but 'Do you understand the grievance procedures?' 'Yes'?
7 October 2010. Same questions. 'Treated by the guards?' This time it
actually says, 'Fine.' 'Treated by
facility?' Same, 'Fine.' So, is
this part of the grading process--
--at this point?
I mean, that's-- that's how I sort of saw it
was, you know, fine, excellent. I
mean-- I just used-- I mean, I used a buzz word.
And vocally to [missed word]. I mean I'm not the one-- again, I'm not
the one-- I'm not the one that is writing these--
--these answers down. But, I would sign the document again,
Okay. And then here, 'Do you have any needs we can take care of?' "No.'
And then actually this-- this-- this week, they wrote, 'Not at this time'? At least, was said in the documenting?
15 October 2010. This one appeared to be a little
different. 'Are you getting rec
call?' The answer is, 'Yes.' 'How
long each day?' Again, you say, '20 minutes'...
--at this point. 'How are you being treated by the
guards?' 'Very professional.' 'How
are you being treated by the facility?' 'Very professionally.' So, at least this portion appear to be
--[missed last part of his statement question]. Now on 21 October 2010, you were asked
about the guards. 'Professional.'
You're asked about the treating facility and how they're treating you.
--'Any needs to take care of?' 'No.' [Missed a few words], on 27 October
2010, you were asked, 'Have you been visited by a chaplain?' You answered, 'Yes.' And, then you said, 'Who visited you?'
and it was 'Chaplain Rosenball [sp.]. Is that what you [missed word] before?
It might be the right name. I am not sure.
--I was not sure, and I stated that,
whenever. I wasn't sure how to
pronounce it. I wasn't sure if it
was the correct name. I wasn't even
sure if it was the correct rank. Cause I wasn't sure what branch of service.
Okay. Well, it would sort of-- it makes sense. Chaplain could be any branch or
'When's your last attorney visit?' 'Two weeks
ago.' So, this one actually is
slightly different, because it says, 'Since my visit-- since my last visit, how
have you been treated by the guards?' This time, 'Excellent. Very
professional.' And then, about the
facility, 'Excellent. Very professional,' as well.
Yes. I-- I previously stated the same thing for that part.
So, me vocally-- me verbally it would be the
same every time, but they would write it down differently.
Oh. Okay. [Missed a few words, I think, 'I get it,' but not certain]. 10 November, is that your recollection,
--about the guards? Whether you had needs to be
taken care of? [Long pause] 'Do you
have telephone access?' Here's a
difference. You remember saying,
'No,' because the phone was down that week?
'Guards, facility?' Essentially the same answers, 'Alright'
'No issues.' Actually that is a little different, because on 17-- or, excuse
me, 18 November when asked, 'How have you been treated by the guards?' This
time, at least what they wrote down was, 'Alright. No issues.' So, not just the 'Professional.'
"Very professional.' 'Fine.' This one is 'Alright. No issues.'
Correct. That was what was written down, sir.
That is what you said, or that what was written
Probably what I said. I switched from 'excellent' to 'okay',
Major Fein, can I talk to you for a second.
I am a little confused. I followed the Court's copy of what was
as the attachment, and I end at-- with these notes at 15 October. Should there be more of them?
I think that might have been a printing issue,
your Honor. But, we have copies
right here. We'll just [get?] a
fresh copy for you. If that will--?
Can you send someone out to make one, so I can
just go along with you when you are asking your questions?
I'm sorry, could you say that--?
Could you send someone out to make a copy of
Well, I have [one?] here.
I [will?] also have them marked as well. Ma'am this has been marked as appellate
Ma'am 18 November 2010, bottom right of the
page would say 700-- page 755 of 1,505.
Private First Class Manning, on 18 November
2010, we left off with, you had said already, 'No issues,' about the treatment
by the guards or [missed a few words]?
Towards the middle of autumn, I think-- I think
I changed my statement back then to something along the lines [missed a few
words] they were 'average', 'alright', sir.
And then actually this one, you did have
something that they could take care of-- and 'One [missed word] set of sweats,
What do you mean by that?
I did-- I did not have-- it was getting cold in
there. And, I did not have--
although, most of the-- most of the detainees at that facility from what I
understand, had been-- they were issued sweats.
The Marine Corps still had sweats. But, [missed full statement.]. So, I did not have sweats to stay
warm. [Missed word], the facility
So what did the command do, based off that
They went out and got at Target, sweats.
Ah, okay. Cause the Army doesn't have sweats, anymore [missed last word].
Did you receive those sweats?
Yes, sir. They were dark grey generic sweats.
Now the next date on 28, excuse me, 26 November
2010, First Sergeant Williams visited you? To the best of your knowledge, this was the-- is this the first date
that he forgot the checklist?
It's not or is?
When do you remember him, not having the check
It was-- it was-- First Sergeant Williams
actually was-- would frequently forget it.
So, it was not-- it was not uncommon for him to
not-- and sometimes he would not write anything down.
He would just come of see me, and ask the
questions, and not necessarily put it in to a document, sir.
So, sometimes he would-- so sometimes he would
have the document.
Sometimes he didn't have the document, but
would write stuff down, and as you are saying, sometimes he wouldn't write
anything down, and you would have a conversation with him?
First Sergeant-- First Sergeant Williams. Yes, sir.
Okay. So on this date of 26 November 2010, when asked about how you were
getting treated? 'Professional'?
We had these questions memorized all the time,
Okay. We or you?
Okay, so he did to?
And, still probably today?
10 December 2010, this time it sounds the
same. 'How have you been treated by
the guards?' 'Excellent.' 'Since
your last visit...since the command's last visit, how is the facility treating
you?' 'Excellent.' And you signed
this document as well?
And actually here, 'Do you have any needs to be
taken care of?' You wrote, 'Need underwear and T-shirts'?
I don't know if I wrote that, sir.
Okay, but at least stated, you needed underwear
I did need more underwear and T-shirts. I had-- the one's I had were from my
deployment, as so they stilled smelled-- they still smelled like Iraq.
[laughs] So, you need new ones?
And, they were able to obtain those for you?
No matter how many times it got washed, it
Okay. On 14 December 2010, there is a change here. 'Are you being offered rec
time?' You say your answer was, 'Yes.'
But then, here is says, 'How long each day?'
But here you stated, 'One hour a day.'
I had notified them of the change, the increase
that Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart had made.
Okay. So, at this point, he had increased the
rec time, and then--
--and, notified me of that, sir.
When asked about how treated by the guards,
this time, at least they wrote down, 'Good. Excellent.' And then, somebody put , 'Excellent,' do
Again, it goes back to [missed two words], sir.
And, are there any needs to be taken care of,
your answer was, 'No'. 23
Not-- not-- not necessarily, sir. I mean I would-- I would vocalize
concerns, but they might be dealt with vocally, as opposed to having to be
written down, sir.
Thank you. What you said a couple minutes ago?
Yes, sir. I mean-- I'm just setting on the record.
Good. On 23 December, so this is two days before Christmas, they showed up to
23 December 2010, when asked about you were
being treated by the guards, this time at least it was written down, 'Fine.'
'Treated by the facility?' "Fine.' Do you remember that?
And then, 'Do you have any needs to be taken
care of this time?' Now this-- this
month if you remember there was no, 'Yes or no?' but it was written in there,
'Not at this time.'
I would always-- almost every single time,
because if I didn't have anything, I would-- I would usually state, 'Well, not
at this time,' just to be careful, because-- I mean there might not be issues
today at this moment. But, I might
have issues in a week, sir.
And you signed and dated that one. Now, 30 December 2010, so they came, I
guess, one week later-- again asked, 'Treated by the guards?' 'Excellent.'
'Treated by the facility?' 'Excellent.'
'Any needs to be taken care of?' This time
just, 'No,' signed, dated. Next
date, on 6 January 2011, 'How have you been treated by the guards?'
'Treated by the facility?' Oddly here, 'Treated by the facility?'
at least what was written down was, 'No issues,' for, 'How are you being
treated by the facility?'
Yes, sir. That's what is says. What was the date on that, sir?
6 January 2011.
That was whenever I started raising the 5-10
issue or I had verbally-- vocally to Captain-- was it Captain Casamatta?
--and I vocally explained that, but he didn't
write it. He didn't put it down,
I was-- I told him, that I was going to submit
a 5-10 the next day.
Okay. On 14 January 2011, the one where you were initialing items around, you
were asked-- or again, on 14 January 2011, you were asked, 'How were you being
treated by the guards?' 'Excellent.' 'Treated by the facility?' again 'Excellent.' At this point, 'Do you understand the
grievance procedure?' You-- like every month, you answered, "Yes.'
Yes, sir. Now, what is the date on this one, sir?
14 January 2011.
Okay, so that-- is that the--
Well, this one--
I think-- I think that they might be wrong on
Well, it's interesting that you say that, and
would you like a copy to look at?
I-- if you don't mind.
I don't. [Missed a few words] hand the witness, what had been marked as appellate
exhibit 426(d). It's the whole
packet. [Missed a few words] dated November the bottom packet. Page 771 of 1,505. Starts at page [missed].
771 of 1,505?
And that's where it starts?
Yes. So, it's the next two pages.
So, on the top left, you initialed a change in
Well, I did not. The-- Captain Casamatta-- no, First
Sergeant Williams did.
Okay. Got it. Cause that's a 'BW',
I remember that-- I remember that-- I remember
that there was a-- that we weren't sure what day it was. Neither of us were, and we asked the
Brig staff. They weren't sure
Okay. So, it wasn't 14 January?
We never got an answer.
Okay. So, well it was initialed by First Sergeant Williams.
Well, I'm guessing-- my best guess is that it
was-- that it-- that it was the 14th of--
He might have checked that out before he
So, it-- it definitely is changed from what was
originally there, and then initialed after the change, correct?
Yes, sir, because that-- those are not my
initials for the change on the 14, yes--
Cause it's not 'BEM' versus it says 'BW'?
So if you look now on the next page, 772.
So, just starting from the top down--
And, again those are not my initials where
the-- where is says--
--where I put the date in-- that is not my
So, the initials on the top left and the bottom
left of page 772 is the same initials that are the top left of 771?
Thank you. So, the middle of the page, the question, 'Since my last visit, how have
you been treated by the guards?' Your answer was 'Excellent.' 'How have you
been treated by the facility?' At
least what was written was 'Alright'?
I did not write that. First Sergeant Williams did.
Okay. And, 'Do you understand the grievance process?' The answer was, 'Yes.'
But there is a difference here, and it says,
'Have you used it?' You say this time is 'Yes.' And, 'What for?' And, you told your
First Sergeant, 'To figure out how to get off injury prevention.'
And then you stated-- or on here it says,
'Friday 7 Jan' on it?
Yes, sir. I-- I again notified the fact that I was putting a-- I was supplementing
the fact that I had notified the previous-- the previous one that I had stated,
'I am putting a 5-10 through the facility-- to the facility commander,' and
then I-- because I was worried that my 5-10's were not making it where they
needed to go, because the fact they [missed word] them in late December.
So, I got the-- I made sure I was covered my
bases on that, sir.
Okay, but I guess what I am confused about
Private First Class Manning is the December and the January documents-- and
feel free to flip back about two or three...
When it is asked, 'Have you used the grievance
procedure?' You always answer,
Well I-- sometimes we would skip over that
[missed a few words], because we just didn't need to go over that question,
Okay, but on this date, the answer is,
'Yes'? So, going back to 14, well
what has been-- what First Sergeant Williams changed and initialed 14 January?
This date, the answer is 'Yes,' you have used
procedures? And, then--
Yes and for that specific 5-10.
Okay. And, that is what you meant went you told him, and he wrote this down?
Well, thank you. And then you signed the bottom left?
Private First Class Manning, do you need a
comfort break right now or we could go a few more minutes?
Seven more minutes would be good.
Seven more? [laughs] Seven more it will be.
I think I can deal with that.
Okay. I'll try to get it within seven
minutes. [laugh] So on-- so the next date-- if you
look in the packet it's page 774 or the appellate exhibit. This one dated in the bottom right where
you-- is that [missed a few word] initials in the bottom right? The 'BEM'?
For that, 771?
Yes-- No. 774. Onto the next page. This is the handwritten document--
Yes, those are.
Okay, those are your initials 20 January 2011?
Yes, sir. I didn't put a slash through the zero, but--
Got it. On the 20, you are talking about?
And if you look to the middle of the page,
number 12, it says, 'How have you been treated by the guards?' This time you wrote, 'Decent.' For number 16, 'Any other needs?' You
wrote, 'Nothing new,' this time. Now is the reason you wrote 'Nothing new,' is, because you still are
trying to ask about 'Why and how it was implemented,' meaning POI?
Well the 'Nothing new,' it goes from 16 then it
goes to 17, that is to same one.
So, 16 'Nothing new,' any other needs, 'Nothing
new.' 17, 'Some grievance pending,'
which is what is referencing, 'Nothing new,' that is what you talked about the
And then you starred here, 'Why and how it was
And, this is your handwriting on this document?
For the 'Manning, ' just the name. I did not put the asterisks or the 'Why
and how it was implemented.'
Okay, thank you. Now, going to 29 January 2011, feel free
to flip if you need to. Going to
the second page, when asked on 28 January 2011, 'Since my last visit, how have
you been treated by the guards?' you wrote, 'Better,' or you stated, 'Better,'
excuse me. You didn't write it.
Yes, sir. Because, there was a-- because there was an incident on the 18th
involving-- involving two of the guards.
So, we went over that, and I explained that--
that it was better-- that the-- the-- that incident had occurred.
I had explained that in the previous week, or
the previous one. I just explained
that it was better, because of-- there were-- there were no incident between
that time and this visit, sir.
Okay. No, but-- so, you just said that you
spoke to them the week before, the previous week, now that was on 20 January,
but when asked about 'How you were treated by the guards?' Is that why you just
said, 'Decent'? Because you had the incident on the 18th?
Right. It's a lower rating than, 'Excellent.'
Okay. It's a grading process?
Also on 28 January, when asked, 'If your needs
are being taken care of?' I guess you had a request of three pairs of socks
and 'You had more when you got
there, but you need more.'
Yes, sir. My-- the number of socks I had, started to diminish--
--in the time frame. I don't know why, sir.
And they were able to get you more socks?
It's a little bit before seven minutes, but,
your Honor, United States moves for a 15 minute recess.
Alright, any objection?
Alright, Court is in recess for twenty minutes
Please be seated. This Article 39(a) Session is
called to order. Let the record
reflect all parties present when the Court last recessed are again present in
Court. Major Fein.
Yes, Ma'am. Private First Class Manning, just remind
you, you are still under oath.
Private First Class Manning, when we left off
we were going through the weekly updates from the chain of command, I think we
stopped at 4 February 2011?
Do you know which page that was?
Yes. Page-- on the bottom right corner page
779. Yes, sir.
And this is appellate exhibit 426(b). So during this visit on 4 February 2011,
when asked about how the guards-- how you were being treated by the guards, you
answered, 'Very well,' or words to that effect?
And then, 'How you were treated by the
facility?' 'Excellent,' or words to that effect?
'Understood the grievance procedures?' You-- you acknowledged, 'Yes,' at this
And had no real comments about whether you had
any needs to be taken care of?
Thank you. Going to the-- the next week, 11 February 2011.
The second page, when asked well at least here,
when asked, 'Since the last visit, have you have been treated by the guards
here?' was just, 'Yes,' not a, 'No,' and no real comment, at least, documented
on this week, correct?
Yes, sir. There was an unusual-- we had a-- there was a different-- it says here
Sergeant First Class Jones did this. So, it was done differently, sir.
Okay. So, the following week, 18 February 2011, I assume this was another week
that First Sergeant Williams did not have the form with him?
Okay. And on this 18 February 2011, towards the bottom, with the question of,
'Do you have any visitation concerns?' written differently, the answer was,
'Was there anything he could help you
with?' You actually did ask for
some help from your chain of command here. I think you wrote, 'Your head gear possible beret, size seven'?
Yes, sir. I was being transferred using a pc [patrol cap], while everybody else
was in berets. For movement, and
that was just a minor issue.
Okay. So, you needed to get an actual beret to start wearing?
Yes, sir. That was before the pc became the utility uniform--
So, and then what type of movement, cause I
assume this is outside of the Brig?
Correct. For attorney visits, and I think we had a 706 board.
Around this time in February?
And then you also asked for a dentist for the
following-- following the last visit?
Yes, sir. I still had some work that needed to be done.
And then why ask First Sergeant about checking
on a magazine order that you did in your name?
Because I started receiving magazine bills at
Quantico Base Brig. It was-- they
were concerned about the fact that I was getting bills, while I was in
confinement. So, I brought to the
attention of the command as well, sir.
And what happened for that, when you brought
that to their attention?
Nothing really ever came up. It never affected my credit rating or
anything. So, it got reported.
Okay, thank you. So, 25 February 2011, the next
When asked how you were being treated by the
guards, you said, 'Very professionally.'
'How's the facility treating you?' you said,
'Very professionally.' 'Any needs
that can be taken care of?' 'No,'
at least that is what is marked here, and you signed?
Thank you. On 2 March 2011...
--similarly, 'Since your last visit, how have
you been treated by the guards?' 'Alright,' this was how it was documented?
And then, 'About then facility?' This time, actually it was, 'Okay'?
And then, 'Do you have any needs that could be
taken care of?' 'No,' and at least this time documented by First Sergeant Williams and you, it
says, 'Not at this time'?
That's correct, sir.
Private First Class Manning, on 11 March is the
next visit that was documented. On
here, when it talks about the rec time, 'How long each day?' 'One hour,' was
And also up top, about the chaplain visit. Now it says, 'First Lieutenant' I think
--was the chaplain?
That is not correct. I recall now he is a [missed word]. He was an Navy Lieutenant, so.
So, Navy Lieutenant, which is a Army--
--Captain. Thank you. And then at the same visit, 'How were
you treated by the guards?' It was annotated, 'Very well.'
And by the facility, 'Very well'?
And, no needs to be taken care of yet?
Exactly one week later, on 18 March 2011, when
asked about the treatment of the guards, this time, 'Very professional,' and
the facility, you said, 'Maybe overcautious'?
And what did you mean by, 'Maybe over
This is-- is 18 March, so I was concerned
because Chief Warrant Officer Two Barnes had placed me on what I considered
some kind of suicide restriction, but without it being called a suicide
restriction, so I discussed this with First Sergeant Williams.
Okay. At that point did you ask him to-- to figure it out-- to help you with
But, then, 'Do you have any needs to be taken
care of?' The answer is, 'No'?
'Do you have any other needs?' is the way he
always asked the question verbally.
And then the answer then, "any other
needs?' was, 'No,' also?
Okay. Thank you. The next-- the
next week was 23-- or the next visit and document 23 March 2011?
And, 'How were you were treated by the guards?'
"Very well,' was written down on the document?
And, 'How were you treated by the
facility?' Again slightly
different, it says, 'Treated okay, but communication issues.'
Yes, sir. I relayed the same information to Captain Casamatta that I did with
First Sergeant Williams in the...I think it was two prior...it might have been
--[missed a few words] March.
Okay. So, what did you mean by 'communication issues'?
That is what he wrote down. I described the same thing as I did with
First Sergeant Williams, and just described it, but to the Company
Commander, not just the First Sergeant.
Okay, so the term 'communication issues' was
--choice of words?
Did you agree with this, when you signed it?
Well, yes. It's signed [missed word].
And, 'Any other needs?' You said, 'Not right now'?
The next visitation on 31 March 2011?
[Made affirmative sound like 'mm-hmm'.] Yes, sir.
'How were you treated by the guards?' now is,
'Alright.' This one says, 'Treated
by the facility?' 'Okay.'
And, any needs to be taken care of, the box of
'No,' is checked?
Go to the next month...was there another
one...another visitation that was documented after...that you're aware of after
31 March 2011?
By your chain of command, correct.
Yes. Yes, sir. There was.
And, when was that?
I don't know.
I mean there were-- there were April
visitations. Yes, sir.
And when did you-- when did you leave Quantico?
I left Quantico Base Brig on 20 April of 2011,
And, these check lists continued once you went
to the JRCF?
I would like to look at very quickly the next
one in the...in front of you, which is dated 28 July 2011?
So, this form is-- is actually I think it's the
exact same form, because even the top says Marine Corps Base Quantico?
Yes, sir. They fixed it at [missed a few words].
Okay. Now-- got it. On page two, 'How have you ben treated
by the guards?' 'Great. No issues,' is what was documented by Captain
Yes, sir. I upgraded to 'Great,' because it was really, really good, sir. It's above excellent.
Makes sense. And, 'Treated by the facility?' 'Same as
Yes. I was treated equally as other detainees
or other inmates. So I felt that I was now being treated as normal, sir.
Okay. And, you signed this one as well?
You honor, I am retrieving what has been marked
as appellate exhibit 426 Bravo.
So, at least when you met with the chain of
command, and your Army chain of command came to visit, and you had issues, they
worked to resolve those issues for you?
Absolutely. Yes, sir.
You needed shoes. They [missed word] even your Fort Drum
Yes. At the company-- at the company level in particular it was outstanding,
And if it required interaction with the Brig,
your-- your request [missed word]-- they were able to interact with the Brig,
and it was all no issues?
I'm-- I don't know. I mean sometimes, yes; sometimes,
no. I-- I wasn't privy to the
conversations between the Army-- at the company level and the Brig at the
Brigade level. I don't know. I don't know how those interactions
That's fair. But, at least for the company commander
at the company level or the First Sergeant, or one time Sergeant First Class
Jones showing up, when you had issues that you shared with them, they at there
level, would either resolve them if they could on the spot, as you talked
--or they would get back to you, based off what
you asked them to do?
Sometimes-- sometimes they would just forget
what the issue was.
Okay. But, none of those reports we just looked at reference prior-- well I
think one report references prior issue, but then after they got resolved, then
everything was still back to, sort of the norm?
So, between the chits that you're filing with
DD 5-10's with the Brig--
--and your request from assistance from your
chain of command, when those were submitted either the Brig and your chain of
command answered them?
Normally, yes. For minor administrative things or, you
know, clothing issues, the magazines, books, those issues they were normally--
that was-- if not-- if not rapidly, then within a decent amount of time to.
But-- but in none of these requests, you never
asked the chain of command, you never asked the chain of command to assist you
in changing your POI status, or you did?
You did. That never then-- never got resolved.
But, then it was never documented each time,
Yes, because it-- whenever we got to the
question-- because on every single one there is a question regarding the POI
status-- the SR status-- normally if we were going through the questions,
sometimes we would stop at that one, you know, 'Are you still on POI?'-- you
know, 'Are you still working through your counsel et cetera?'
They would-- we would talk about, where that
process was and everything else, so. That was-- that was the time, whenever we would normally discuss it,
So, during those discussions you were never--
you never reached out to them and say, 'Listen, can y'all help with whatever it
takes to get me off of this status?'
I did do that, sir, yes.
I did do that, sir. Within-- I don't recall how early it
was, but, you know, I did talk to Captain Casamatta frequently about it,
because he was very concerned about the fact that I was on-- on a restrictive
Captain Casamatta in particular would always
ask me about that.
Ask you about it, but-- I guess where I'm--
but, I do understand-- and I am just trying to understand, and what most people
wouldn't understand is-- he was concerned about-- y'all have discussions about
I mean it is clear from the check list that
'prevention of injury' was actually written in on the right side--
--and you'd have discussions about that?
But, at what point were you reaching out to the
chain of command that was visiting you each week to say, 'It needs to be
changed. I am not suicidal'?
Yes. That's-- that's the gist of the discussion right there, sir.
But it wasn't documented?
Well, we checked-- I mean we checked in the
box-- I mean, well we once a week-- they had-- there was a lot of other things
going on, and we assumed-- we also assumed that our conversations were being
recorded as well, so we thought, you know, check the box, you know and I
I mean, I don't know how-- I don't know how
Captain Casamatta and First Sergeant Williams documented the other-- the other
stuff, but the form-- I mean, we just went through the form to make sure that
all-- that all bases were covered every single time, sir.
Okay, but it wasn't a pencil [missed a few
words]? And it's just-- I'm sorry. It wasn't that you sat down with Captain Casamatta or First Sergeant
Williams, and simply just went through real quick and checked everything?
So, you still went through the questions?
Every single one, yes, sir.
You had an opportunity to document whatever it
is you needed to do, whatever you wanted to make sure was documented, and then
you signed the form, but never reaching out and saying that--
Well, it's a check list, sir.
Well, it is except for there are certain areas,
like at the bottom of what else-- what else do you needs from the chain of
command, where it was written down all the time?
Well, issues that-- issues that-- to remind
Captain Casamatta or First Sergeant Williams, you know-- if there was something
that was being brought up that we couldn't resolve on the spot, like-- like I
said, or that we hadn't covered before, then-- then [missed a few words], sir.
[Missed a statement].
Are you aware that when-- when in the January
time frame after you submitted the chit to the Brig, and you then you talked to
Captain Casamatta, and Captain Casamatta then went to the Brig officials--
--after you requested it?
So he went to the Brig officials to say,
'Explain the POI issue to me'?
But, that happened in January 2011?
And, it was documented on the form?
So, you are saying today at least that, that
also happened all before January 2011?
I don't know. I did talk to Captain Casamatta-- again,
I don't-- I'm not privy to, you know, communications of, you know, Captain
Casamatta and the Brig, sir.
I assumed that whenever I bring it up-- I
assumed that whenever I brought up the issue with Captain Casamatta, he was
going to see what he could do.
I mean there wasn't a lot that he could do
about it-- he doesn't work at the Brig, you know. He is not an officer there. So, he is only looking out for me from
the unit's standpoint in that sense.
Okay. Thank you. Now I would like
to direct your attention to something completely new.
It's-- You mentioned it yesterday, it's these
'voluntary statements' that you were-- you were asked to fill, you didn't even
fill out-- you didn't even fill out at times.
Remember what I am talking about?
Yes, sir. They were-- I-- I didn't know what to
think of them at first, but I eventually figured-- I mean I figured that they
were equivalent of the sworn statements, because of the way it was set up, sir.
So, before we get to talk about any particular,
can you please explain for Colonel Lind what the voluntary statement's are?
Well, they were documents that the Navy uses
to-- to document a statement. So--
so it-- essentially a sworn statement, sir.
And, when were they used?
When were they used? I don't know, but the Department of the
Navy uses it for all kinds of stuff, and I mean that broadly. I don't-- I don't know specifically what
it can or should be used for, sir.
Well, you normally had them when there was an exception to like rec hall
was cut short-- you chose to watch TV instead of going to rec hall. That is when you used them correct?
That is whenever they-- whenever they said that
I had to fill them out--
--that-- I did not. I was confused by that, and I was
uncomfortable with those particular document, sir.
Okay. But in general, that was-- that was-- without talking about any specific
document yet-- in general that when it came up, while you were confined at
Quantico was when you made a choice, and they wanted you to fill out a document
to reflect that choice?
It seemed like it. It seemed like that. Yes, sir.
So, the-- the first one I would like to talk
about is-- [as you go?] in chronological order--
Where am I going to find these?
Yes, your Honor.
If they're already enclosures here in filings
you can just tell me where it is?
Yes, Ma'am. And, they might not be enclosures or we
would have to search for them. So, this is easier than.
Please, also Major Fein, if we are using any
documents, that haven't been entered into the record as enclosures, please
[missed a few words]...
Yes, Ma'am. Your honor, the 'voluntary statements'
are marked as appellate exhibit 426 Charlie.
I'm handing Private First Class Manning, 426
Charlie. [Missed a statement].
As you see, Private First Class Manning, this
appellate exhibit there [missed a word] in reverse chronological order--
--and we are going to start in chronological
order. So, that in mind.
So, the first-- the first one is recorded-- it
was from 14 December 2010.
And this is where, you chose to forgo rec time
because, because you left Quantico for the day and it was too close to dinner?
And, so you chose-- so, instead you--
Oh. No. No, on 14 December they did not have
the ability to do rec call for me, so they told me to fill out a 'voluntary
Okay, so-- so they didn't allow you to do rec
They didn't have enough time to do it, no.
Okay, so they didn't have enough time. They
asked you to fill out this statement--
They ordered me to, sir.
They ordered you to fill out the 'voluntary
Yes, sir. Master Sergeant Papakie.
On 14 December 2010?
Let's go to the-- the next one, please. Dated 20 December 2010?
And on this one, this is where-- where the
statement says-- the statement here that you wrote says that you voluntarily
changed you rec time and then this voluntary statement occurred?
The one that I am looking at says, the 20th of
So it's 43335 at the bates [missed word]?
That is correct.
And then on-- so let's go to the next one. On 21 December 2010?
Yes. 21 December. So this would be on the bottom left,
bates number 43328.
I don't-- I don't recall the circumstances
regarding this one , sir.
But I think it was-- I think it was-- I don't
know if it was snowy or whatever, but I wasn't able to go to outdoor rec, so
they told me to fill out this out.
Okay. So, they-- they said, you will not do rec time and then you fill out the
Yes. That's how it worked, sir.
Alright. So, next in line please. So,
this will be dated 25 December 2010?
Actually, I'm sorry this one's dated 28
December, but on 25 December 2010, that was Christmas of 2010, you also chose
to shorten your rec time that day, but refused to sign a voluntary statement.
Yes, sir-- because it was getting-- it was
getting unusual and I was uncomfortable, because it has this section at the
bottom, which I started to cross out-- where it says, 'I have been sworn to
this statement by blank.'
And, you know, they were ordering me to fill
this out, and I wasn't comfortable with it-- wasn't sure what the legal status
of this document was, and they were telling me to do something that I wasn't
sure was acquired illegally, sir.
Okay, so on 25 December, you decided or you
refused to sign a voluntary statement?
On 25 December-- yes, because I-- again it was
getting-- I was getting uncomfortable filling out these-- these forms.
But, you were allowed to not sign them,
correct? But, you refused--
They were not exactly happy about it--
--the Brig said, 'Okay.'
--I remember-- and I don't know who the DBS was
at the time, but they-- they can't force me to sign the document.
They started-- I mean they were-- they were-- I
mean, the way I was perceiving it was that it was an order.
'Here is a voluntary statement. Sign
That was how it was initially going, and then--
and then I got uncomfortable and I-- and I started to wonder, 'well, is this
Okay. So then now the next one in the packet that was signed-- 28 December
2010-- so its the bates number on the bottom left 43327.
So, that one you did. You voluntarily chose to forgo rec time,
because you wanted to watch a certain TV show?
This is 3327? That is not what I am reading.
That is what I am looking at, 43327?
Yes. On the 28th of December.
No. It says, 'Television call being secured, due to medication call. Sleep medication being given at 20-- at
20 hundred.' I was be told because
I was being given sleep medication, I had-- I had to have my television
So, they-- so, Sergeant Garnet [sp.] gave me
this, said, 'Fill this out.'
And that is why I crossed through a lot of
this-- I crossed out the sworn part, because, you know, I crossed out the, 'I
am freely and voluntarily,' and a lot of-- there's a lot of wording of this
language that I crossed out and put initials by, because it wasn't correct.
Okay. So, you weren't going to sign a voluntary statement with that sort of
language that is crossed off on this?
Definitely not, sir.
Okay. Thank you. Cause you were
worried to fill one of these out?
Correct, sir. And, that's the way I was-- I was taking
this was-- this was. 'Here is a
voluntary statement. Fill this out.' I mean it wasn't unambiguous--
--un or an--
Could you flip now to the next one in the line,
from 16 January 2011?
Bates number 43324. Now on this on-- it-- it states where
you wrote, 'securing recreation call due to conflict of scheduling of weekly
television shows.' And then you
signed this one.
Yes, there was a-- there was a television show
that I wanted to-- that-- that I was wanting to see, so I asked if I could-- if
I could have recreation call later, and this is on the 16th.
I asked if I could have recreation call later,
and-- then later Sergeant Garnet [sp.] again came by and gave me this, and told
me to fill this out.
And, it didn't have the 'sworn' language that I
could cross, because it-- there is no 'sworn' language at the bottom.
But they crossed out the same portion and
[re?]initialed on the top?
Changing it from 'voluntary' to something else?
And then on-- if you-- you flip again-- on 6 February
2011, this seems to be similar-- 'refusing rec call due to schedule clash
Again, it was the same-- it was a very similar
thing, where I-- I mean normally I would be able to, you know, they would give
me some options, as to when recreation would be, and TV call and recreations
call, depending on the calls of the day, were clashing.
So-- so sometimes they would-- they would--
they would give me this at the end of the day, and say, 'You have not been
able,' you know, and-- and I don't remember-- I don't remember what days these
were-- these were on, sir.
But, you know, there were times whenever-- I
felt-- I really felt uncomfortable with filling these out, because it seemed
like I-- it seemed like it was not-- it was not proper for me to be filling
these out, but I didn't want to refuse an immediate direct order, because I
didn't how-- I didn't know what to do in those circumstances.
But on-- but on Christmas day you did refuse to
On Christmas day, yes, I did.
So, previously you had refused to sign it?
I had refused to sign it, and it was
uncomfortable-- there was some problems with that.
I think Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart
came to talk to me about that. I
Now I would like to talk to you-- because that
it sitting right here-- but on 16 February 2011, you also made a choice to
forgo rec time, cause you were out of the Brig all day for the 706 [board].
That's not correct, sir.
Okay. Then, what did happen that cause you to refuse a voluntary statement?
Well, because I was being told to fill out a
voluntary statement for recreation-- to-- to cancel recreation call that I
did-- that I did want to attend.
Because the-- I would-- I would come back from
the 706 board, and they would be slightly settling down for the day, and they
would be like, 'Oh,' you know, 'your recreation call,' you know, 'Your not
going to be able to do it. Fill out
this voluntary statement.'
But, the voluntary statement does-- it is--
could be sworn, like it has the language at the bottom you crossed out.
So, you could have actually written what you
just said on the form, swore to it, signed it, and given it to them.
'I do not voluntarily do this.'
You couldn't have done it?
My understanding was that I could not,
sir. They would throw away the form
if I did that.
Did-- did they tell you that?
They threw-- Sergeant Garnet on one particular
occasion. Took the form. Ripped it
up. And, gave me another one and said, 'Fill this out the way that I say that
you fill it out.'
Okay, so you-- so, they told you-- or they
would discard it, and they told you that if you wrote under sworn-- sworn
statements saying, 'That I absolutely wanted rec call, and you took it away
from me,' then that would be torn up or destroyed?
I mean I was-- I was very-- and I brought this
up with Mr. Coombs, and, you know, I was just told to not-- I mean, not fill
any of these-- not deal with any of these voluntary statements. And, it was
very uncomfortable, sir.
So, on 27 February 2011, you were sick at the
And, you did not have rec call that day. The records show that it was because you
voluntarily didn't want to have rec call?
I think that one...that one was a legitimate.
But you still refused to sign a voluntary
Yes. I had advice of counsel not to fill out
any more voluntary statements starting around this early February time frame.
That is 27 February. But-- so that one--
Well, no following this last one with-- where I
got the, 'I have been sworn...I have been sworn to this statement by Corporal
After that happened, I brought that up with Mr.
Coombs, and he advised me not to touch any 'voluntary statements' anymore.
Okay. And then-- so that was on the 27 February?
And, did you tell the Brig that?
They knew, yes.
Okay. So, originally when presented the option to sign a 'voluntary
statement', you opted for it?
There were earlier 'voluntary statements' that
are similar to that, that are not in the records for instances like that. Yes, sir.
But, you did originally sign them?
Yes. I would-- I would fill them out, and then-- for things-- for things
where I was actually voluntarily saying, 'No,' you know, 'I don't want to do
But there were instances, where they started
around the December timeframe, where they would not be able to fill out, you
know-- they would not be able to-- to execute the recreation call within--
before taps-- before the schedule change, and they would give me the form, and
I would have to fill-- they would tell me that I had to fill it out.
And, I figured-- and, I was uncomfortable with
this. I didn't know if they were
just trying to cover themselves for not being able to-- for not scheduling a
So, you weren't aware though at the time that
they were making the log entries and had their own scheduling, since you
refused to sign.
Yes. I was definitely aware of that, sir.
So, if you were aware that they were doing
that, if you refused to sign, then why would you be compelled to sign?
Because they would give me these forms, and
they would stand there-- I mean Sergeant Barnet [sp.] in particular was one,
who was giving me these forms, and saying, you know-- and standing there, 'This
is a direct order,' you know, 'Sign this voluntary statement.'
I mean, I caved in a coupled times, and you can
see, but after I changed the wording, the language, because I was not
comfortable with signing anything that looked like a sworn statement, because
it-- because I mean a sworn statement is a very serious thing, you know,
declaration on penalty of perjury as well.
I didn't-- I don't feel comfortable, because I
wasn't sure what the legal status of these documents were basically. I am more familiar with Army sworn
statements that have a lot more language to it-- a lot more boxes to fill in et cetera et cetera.
And, that is what I was more familiar with,
because these didn't have a lot of that-- those boxes in it and et cetera. I wasn't sure what the legal status of
But, that started in December, correct? Before
December you were signing them?
Well we have-- we have the records of these
[missed word]. There were instances
were-- were I-- before this-- were
I would fill out a sworn statement or a voluntary statement, not knowing it was
a sworn, not knowing that it could be used as a sworn statement.
I don't know. Again, I don't know the legal status of
these documents. I still don't,
and, you know-- I filled them out before hand with no issue, because, you know,
my recreation call would be secured, you know-- because I didn't want to finish
my recreation call.
I mean, we are talking about November October
timeframe of 2010, but whenever they started to not be able to fill that in,
and tell me to that I needed to fill these out, I got uncomfortable, sir.
And, so that is whenever these crossing out and
these awkward moments started happening, sir. It was around the December timeframe.
Thank you. Your Honor, I am retrieving from the [witness?] what has been marked as
appellate exhibit 426 Charlie.
Private First Class Manning I would like to now
bring you to the time that, that you talked about yesterday when you were--
when you were standing at attention at parade rest naked in the morning.
That is the morning of-- of 2 March 2011?
Early March-- I don't-- I don't recall the
exact dates, if you have something to remind me, sir.
I actually don't right this second, so-- but
early March. Will you please
explain to the Court--
--so the normal-- what the normal procedure was
in the morning time wise? Maybe
this will help. When did-- when
were you woken up?
Okay. Zero five was-- we would have 'Reveille Reveille Reveille,' announced at
zero five in the morning normally.
And, then if-- sometime it would be
immediately, 'Stand by for count.' Sometimes we would do a hygiene call or either give us our-- or give me
I'd shave my face, and then return it. And, then we would have count. Sometime-- it wasn't always-- sometime
it was count first. Sometimes it
was 'hygiene call' first, sir.
And that's at zero five? And when did the count occur, after
'Reveille Reveille Reveille'?
05:01 as early as that. As late as 05:20, sir.
Okay, so just depending on when the counter
Yes, sir. And, when 'Stand by for count,' would be announced, sir.
Typically-- typically it was done very-- very
quickly, sir. And the DBS was the
counter, the Duty Brig Supervisor.
So, 'Reveille Reveille Reveille'--
--and that's waking everyone up?
--and, turning the lights on, sir.
--turn the lights on. And then, when were you given your
clothing black to put on after-- at that point?
On 3 March?
No. On the normal day.
On the normal day? After I had-- after I had my clothing
removed-- so post 2 March or 3 March, it was sometimes as early as 04:50.
Sometime it would be after 'Reveille Reveille Reveille'. So, it
would be within a few minutes. Sometime-- sometimes-- it was always-- it was always before.
Well, it wasn't always-- for the first couple
days, it was not before count.
And the clothing wasn't put on the-- where--
[Missed word] it was put in a feed tray,
where-- just the opening of the cell door, sir.
And so, it was laid there. So, sometimes early
it was there--
--and sometimes you woke up and it wasn't
And then they would be brought to you?
Major Fein, I don't want to interrupt you. Can I just get a point of
clarification? Before the 2nd of
March what was the status of your clothing at night?
I still had some. I mean-- I still had underwear then.
At any point before 2 March, since you arrive,
did you have anything more than underwear?
Well, I did, Ma'am. When-- can you repeat the question, your
[to prosecutor] Alright, I think you know where
I am going.
Yeah. I do, Ma'am.
I'll let you make that--
Alright, Private First Class Manning, before 2
March, you were still allowed to sleep in your underwear, correct?
Yes. I still had-- I still had some under garments and socks, I think.
But not-- but not your entire compliment of
Okay, so during that time, prior to the Brig ordering
your underwear to be removed--
--you-- how was that clothing then given back
to you, like the sweats that you were talked about earlier?
Oh. Before it was-- before 3 March it was placed-- it was usually-- it was
usually given to me within ten to fifteen minutes of 'Reveille Reveille
Okay. So, is it-- is it the same as you just talked about as either right
before or right after by like ten minutes?
It varied a lot, sir. I mean-- sometimes it was after count,
sometimes it was before count, but, you know, it-- I mean, sometime-- sometimes
I would be standing-- but I was always standing with-- with clothing on at that
point, whether it was a low level of clothing or full uniform-- I mean, and
that was the variation.
So, what you testified about yesterday was on
that morning, you were ordered to stand at attention or parade rest, naked?
Parade rest, attention, and then parade rest,
Okay. And, you were specifically ordered to not have your clothing on or to
cover yourself, because you did not have clothing?
The wording of the statement, and I can't see,
because I don't have glasses on. So, I can't see who is in the observation booth.
The door was cracked open. And, I stood with the prevention of
injury blanket over me as I normally did, on-- whenever I was on 'suicide
watch' or 'suicide risk' status, for--
Then the door opened a crack, and a voice from
inside, one of the guards said, 'Detainee Manning, is that how you stand at
And, I asked again or I-- I was confused by
this. I was not sure. I mean, I was like, 'How do you want me
to stand?' And he is like, 'Is that
how you stand at parade rest?' I
understood that to mean, you know, put the blanket down.
So, I put the blanket down.
So, the guard did not actually say, 'Put the
blanket down'? He said, 'Is that
how you stand at parade rest?'
'Is that how you stand at parade rest, detainee
'Detainee Manning,' but not 'Detainee Manning,
put the blanket down'?
Correct. It's a-- it's an-- it's an implied task, not a direct order.
Sure, but you implied it, cause it's an implied
Well I-- I asked for clarification on that.
And, I just got the same statement again
--cause I mean it's not an illegal order, or
anything like that.
Oh, I understand. I mean--
--I mean it wasn't like-- the wording I had
been given by the staff was that any order that you are given, unless it
immediately-- immediately causes you danger or harm, is a proper one, until
you-- and then execute it, you know, unless it's 'life, leg, or eyesight'.
I think the tarantula-- I think tarantula jar
was an example that was used a lot, you know.
If a guard orders you to put your hand in a
tarantula jar, don't-- don't do that, you know. Refuse that order, but, you know,
anything else a part from a-- anything else that's not-- that's not immediately
dangerous-- that's not immediately harmful or dangerous, you execute that, and
then complain about it later, sir.
Okay. So-- I understand that. What
I am trying to understand and really if not-- me, I am trying to have Colonel
Lind understand is, that-- so that morning you stood up and you had your POI
blanket on you--
--you didn't have your underwear on, because
you were ordered the day before to remove them--
--I didn't have glasses either, sir.
--or your glasses. And, you had your blanket on you?
And then the DBS--
Not the DBS. The guard inside the booth.
The individual we saw on the video in the
--the observation booth. Yes, sir.
Okay. Then ordered you to or made a comment, 'That's not how you stand at
'Detainee Manning, is that how you stand at
And, you responded?
I responded-- I mean I was looking for the
correct rank as well, because I can't see the guard. So I don't know if it's Corporal. I don't know--
--what rank it is, but I guessed at Lance
Corporal, and I didn't get corrected on that, so I said, 'Excuse me, Lance
Corporal,' or, 'Can you,' you know, 'rephrase that, Lance Corporal?'
And, he said, 'Detainee Manning,' or something
to the effect-- or something to the effect of, 'Detainee Manning, is that how
you-- is that how you stand at parade rest,' and I don't remember is it was,
'--with a blanket over you?'
I don't recall if that was said or not, but it
was certainly implied that, 'Take the blanket off.'
Okay. But, did you seek clarification?
And then what did you-- what did you ask or
That was how-- that was how-- that was what I
did. I was like-- I was like, 'Can
you rephrase that,' I mean, 'Is that-- is that what you want me to do? Do you want me to set the blanket
And, there was a moment where, I would [missed
word] that was, 'Yes,' you know. I
did-- I did seek clarification. I
So, you specifically asked them, 'Do you mean
you want me to put the blanket down?'
So you didn't say, 'What do you want me to do?'
It was, 'You want me to put--'
Well, I mean yeah. I have to-- I have to word things from
sort of a third person, because it's a-- it's a Brig, sir.
So, I would have to word-- word it as,
'Detainee Manning requests clarification on the order--' or something like
that. Something that I had to.
Okay. But so, you would then say, 'Detainee requests clarification on that
Yeah. But I don't know-- I don't know if that is exactly the wording I
said. I was groggy. I mean-- it was 05 in the morning, sir.
No. I understand. Unfortunately,
So, you would have to ask it in third
person? Which does seem
confusing. So, you answer in third
person, but are you answering-- saying basically, 'Detainee Manning needs the
order repeated,' or is it--
I don't recall the exact phrasing I said.
--okay, and what was the response back from the
guard within the hut?
Essentially, 'Yes. Place--' I mean it wasn't, 'Place the blanket
down,' but I understood-- I think I asked, 'Do you want me to put the blanket
But you have to ask in the third person--
--that seems confusing right now?
Yes. It's very confusing.
--so you would ask in third person, 'Do you
mean you want me to put my blanket down?'
Yes. 'Detainee Manning, request whether I need to put the [missed word]
blanket down, Sir?'
And then, so you asked that?
Something to that effect, sir.
And then the response you got back was, 'Yes.'
So it wasn't about you not standing at parade
rest. You are saying, it was
actually then about you standing without clothing on or without the blank on,
Well the-- the phrasing of the question from
the Brig beginning was, you know, 'Detainee Manning, is that-- is that how you
stand at parade rest?'
Sure. Sure. But, as you said
before, you were implying something from there-- from the original question.
Okay, cause you could be holding a blanket a
lot of different ways, that could be a modified parade rest or not.
Okay. And this guard was standing in the guard shack?
Sitting down in a chair. I could hear the wheels, but never-- I
can't really see a lot. I see the--
I see the mirror-- what I call-- I mean, it's a window, but I see, you know-- I
see the reflection, and then there's the door, and the door is cracked open,
and they usually sit on a wheelie chair with five wheels, and-- and-- they--
whoever it was-- I don't know who it was, sir-- opened the door, and said,
'Detainee Manning, is that how you stand at parade rest?'
Did they close the door afterwards?
Or, were they standing there in the doorway?
--or sitting, excuse me.
--sitting with the door cracked open, sir.
Okay. Got it. Do you remember
later that morning, not to long after, Staff Sergeant Terry [sp.] showing up?
I do. Yes, sir.
And, do you remember him counseling you that
morning that you should and will never stand naked without clothing?
No. I don't recall that, sir. I
don't recall it being like that.
Okay. We've gone for about an hour, do-- do you need a comfort break?
I could do with one [missed a few words].
Your Honor, United States moves for a fifteen
Alright. Any objection?
Court is in recess until 2:15 or [missed a few
Please be seated. This Article 39(a) Session is
called to order. Let the record
reflect all parties present when the Court last recessed are again present in
Court. Major Fein.
Yes, Ma'am. Private First Class Manning, I would
like to now direct you...I guess for your frame of reference and kind of
When you were still in Iraq on 27 May 2010,
yesterday you testified that was when essentially CID showed up and you were
ordered into your CHU?
I never-- when-- I never saw my CHU after that.
Okay. You were ordered into a-- a [missed word]?
An interview room at the Brigade Headquarters
building, yes, sir.
And where did you then sleep at night?
They brought me to a completely different CHU.
And that's were-- your-- you-- where you stayed
or slept with two guards?
At night, yes, sir. Two guards and some visitors.
Okay, sir. Ah, excuse me [for calling him 'sir'].
You were also ordered, the same time that you
were in that-- that other CHU. You
were ordered not to access a computer?
Yes. That is correct, sir. Well,
not immediately. I didn't-- I
didn't know that.
It was not until the next day after I work up,
and the following day that I was nearby to a computer, and I was about to go
use it, and then they told me that I couldn't-- that I was not suppose to,
sir. So, if that [missed a few
So, on 28 May?
Yes. The following day, sir.
And then on 28 May, that same day, you had
requested Specialist Shaab [sp.] from the S2 Shop to stop by your CHU at 9:30
Schwaab [sp.]. Yes, 21 hundred, sir.
To stop by that evening.
Objection, your Honor. Relevance?
Yes, I did. To come to my-- to come to my-- after
she knew she was available, and-- and I told her where the-- which-- which CHU
it was, because there's a trailer, and then there's-- it's split into different
So, I told her which-- which LSA [Logistics
Support Area] it was in her [missed two words] in was in et cetera.
And she showed up and you asked her to [stay?]
She came a little earlier, yes. Yes. So I think it was 20-- 23rd.
Okay, and then when she showed up, you handed
her a piece of paper with your Gmail account username and password on it?
Yes. I did, sir.
And, you asked her to check your email for you?
Yes. And, I also asked her if she had any books that I could read...that I
could borrow, sir.
And, she went, left, checked the email and came
back and reported to you what she found.
She...she told me what the subjects were in the
inbox. And, she also got me 'The
Girl with the Dragon Tattoo' as a book, sir.
And then Private First Class Manning once you
were in Kuwait, you contacted your aunt to update your Facebook Page?
I did. Yes, sir.
And it was updated-- while you were in Kuwait,
you had her updated it to say, 'Some have you may have heard, that I have been
arrested for disclosing classified information to unauthorized persons. See--,' and then it's the web site for
the Apache video.
Objection, your Honor. Again, relevance.
What is the relevance?
Your Honor, the relevance is yesterday, Private
First Class Manning testified that when he left Iraq and moved to Kuwait, he
was sort of out of it, and doesn't really remember what occurred, and there is
entire dialogue yesterday about that.
Can you repeat the question for me?
When you contacted your aunt in Kuwait. You asked her to post to Facebook?
I did. To post to Facebook, yes.
And you asked her to post, 'Some of you may
have heard that I have been arrested for disclosure of classified information
to unauthorized persons. See...' and then its the web site for the Apache video
I did not tell her to write that, no. She wrote that. I told her to put a posting on my
Facebook to let everybody know that I was alive and well.
Just to make sure that everybody that knew--
because my-- my concern was that-- was that nobody-- because if I'm-- if-- if
I'm going 72, you know, 96 hours-- 72 or 96 hours without updating anybody, I
mean I was worried that somebody might think that I might have passed away-- I
might have got killed or injured or something like that, sir.
Now, to bring you back to the Brig, and-- and
really to focus on visitation and visitors. You-- you were allowed to have visitors,
while you were at Quantico?
Yes, I was.
And you chose who can and cannot visit you?
Yes, sir. Well, to an extent. I did--
I didn't-- I didn't know-- I didn't always know if somebody was coming.
And, I wasn't-- I wasn't sure if I was able to
refuse a visitor once they had been placed on the list. So, that was a...that was a grey area
that I wasn't sure of, sir.
But, so-- that makes sense. You had also-- you have-- it was your
decision whether someone was allowed to visit you at all?
If they weren't on your list, then they could
not visit you?
Unless it was an official visit. Then I could not-- could not-- then I
definitely could not refuse them.
So you could choose, if you wanted to add
anyone from a family member to a member of the press, US Congressman, anyone
you chose, you-- you could decide to put on your list?
No. The Brig order specified that it was only persons that I knew, and
persons that I was like friends with or family members.
It wasn't like business. It specifically said, you know, no
business relationships, or anything like that.
I don't remember the exact wording, but
something to that effect. So, it
was-- it was mostly intended for friends and family.
So, it-- actually I think it's-- correct me if
I am wrong-- the Brig Order says, unless you have prior relationship with an
--that you could not add them to your list.
But, Chief Averhart permitted you to add people
who you didn't have a prior relationship with to your list.
I wasn't sure of that, sir.
But, you were allowed to add people to your
list that you didn't have a prior relationship with?
Okay. When presented--
--because I didn't have a document that
overrode the Brig Order-- the Brig Order, the guidance that I had, sir.
Sure. So, when presented with the option specifically you chose not to add
[missed title Fein gave] Juan Mendez from the United Nations?
No. He's not a friend or family member, sir. That was my understanding was that I
could not add him, and then if I were to add him, then I would face-- that I
could face a discipline-- disciplinary action.
Okay. And did that [missed word] go, you could have added, for instance,
Representative Kucinich to your visitor's list?
I have no idea about that. I mean, that's a grey area.
I mean, I don't know this person personally,
but, you know, the members of Congress have on official-- they have the-- they
are working in an official capacity at the US Capitol, you know-- US Capitol,
and a part of-- and there are several branches of Government.
So, I didn't know whether or not, you know-- I
know-- I know there are legislative liaisons for the different branches and
things, but I didn't, you know, I didn't know what that was, but he was-- he
did not have a role with-- for the added people to the list.
He did not fit into the category of somebody I
had a prior relationship with in terms of friends or family, sir.
So it's still on the visitors. But, on 16 March 2011, you instructed
the Brig to remove many people from your list, and you actually split up the
No. It was-- what it was, was-- it wasn't necessarily that I-- that I wanted
to remove them.
It was that I wanted to remove two people in
particular that I remember, and they gave me an entirely new set of forms.
And a lot of the information was bad on some of
these forms, because they had been written, when I first got there.
So, a lot-- and some of them just contained
garbage information, like addresses that were totally wrong or the names that
were misspelled and things like that.
So, I-- I transferred only-- I transferred some
of the addresses over that I knew would-- could potentially visit me, and I knew
the information was-- as far as I knew, correct.
Well, I would like to go through some of these
names to...to understand how these would fall in? So, the first name removed was your
And then, Daniel Clark was removed?
I don't-- I thought-- I thought he was still--
I thought I moved him over.
Well, who was Daniel Clark?
Daniel Clark is a-- is a friend of mine that I
knew in-- starting in 2009, sir.
You remove, you talked about yesterday, a
gentleman named David House?
And, who is David House?
David House was-- I mean he was an acquaintance
that I met through Danny Clark, or Mr. Daniel Clark, sir.
Would you describe Mr. House as an activist?
I have no idea. I've-- I mean he certainly
became one. I didn't-- whenever I--
whenever I first met him I thought he was just a-- I thought he was just a
regular guy. I saw him as sort of
an acquaintance of mine through a friend.
John [sounds like 'Coke-ly'], you removed him?
Toby [Sounds like 'Corenta']?
[Sounds like 'Drew' and last name two or three
syllables, starts with a plosive or derivative, like 'Pare-gets' or
And, Jordan Davis?
Joshua Solely [sp.]?
George Lawson [sp.]?
Paul Steven Lopez?
Who's Trevor Fitzgibbons?
He is-- he is somebody that I met through--
potentially-- Mr. Coombs had introduced me to Mr. Fitzgibbons.
And, who was he?
I mean I wasn't really sure of his status. I mean, he was some kind of-- he was
some kind of like PR consultant that he was looking at-- he was potentially
But, you say, you met him through Mr. Coombs?
So, he was someone you didn't know prior to
But, you were allowed to have him on your
From what I understood, yes. Because of-- I mean I didn't whether he
was-- I didn't know what status he was in, but Mr. Coombs said that-- that it
was fine. So, I didn't-- I don't
But, when you added him to the-- to the list--
that thing had your mail and visitors, it wasn't rejected by the-- by the Brig?
So on the topic of visitors, you did receive
visitors periodically through your pretrial confinement at Quantico?
Yes. I don't-- I don't recall exactly the dates and times or anything like
that, but I did. Yes, sir.
Would you average, you would say, almost every
No. It felt like-- it felt like longer, sir.
But, you were permitted, Saturdays and Sundays
only or Holidays, to have visitors?
That is correct, Sir.
And, when you met with these visitors, these
meetings were recorded?
To my understand, yes, starting in like
September timeframe. Yes, sir.
But, privileged meetings were not recorded
[missed a few words]?
To my understand, yes. We did it in a separate booth. One that did not have a sign that said,
'This-- this booth is subject to monitoring and recording,' or something to
And, like we talked about before, when the ones
that were recorded, you signed a consent form, and so did the other
To my understanding for-- with-- for some of
the visits with civilians, yes that was the case.
And the privileged ones with defense counsel as
you spoke of or even psychiatrists, chaplains, those weren't-- you weren't
signing consent forms, and to the best of your knowledge, they weren't
I thought the-- I thought that it could be
monitored-- I mean, they didn't write but did think-- the Brig thought
that they could be monitored by
guards for a period of time, where they could sit in the room, but not necessarily record anything.
So, for instance-- well just, I guess-- you
weren't signing a consent form, even like forensic psychiatrists, Doctor
Hocter, Doctor Malone, [missed word identified for Doctor Russell] Doctor
Russell. There were no forms being
signed, this consenting.
And, you even had for instance, you just
mentioned, that you were introduced to Mr. Fitzgibbons by Mr. Coombs. Mr. Coombs even was able to sit in those
meeting, but had to still sign a consent form, since he is your attorney.
I guess. I guess. I wasn't privy to
the other person signing anything.
So, you didn't witness them on the other side
of the glass?
That is correct. I didn't-- I didn't know if they would
sign the document. And, I didn't
always-- I wasn't always given these forms to fill out, sir.
Thank you. So, Private First Class Manning, what I would like to now do is talk to
you about some of these meetings and conversations you had with these
individuals, while they visited you at Quantico?
Your Honor, for judicial economy purposes, any
of these recordings were provided in enclosure 49 on the CD to the Court.
And, if there is a question I will be able to
cite the exact hour, minute and second. [to witness] Private First Class Manning on 18 September 2010, you met
with Mr. David House and Mr. Daniel Clark?
18 September. Thank you.
Okay. September. Yes, sir.
2010. You-- they asked you, 'How are they, the
Brig, treating you?'
And you answered, 'Pretty good. It's not bad. It's not Oz,' or something like that?
And 'Oz' is a...an HBO show about prison?
Ah, yes, with Maloney [sp.] and some other
Okay. And then-- so, but your answer was, 'It's pretty good. It's not bad.'
Your answer to them.
Yes, sir. I was trying to reassure them.
And then, when asked by Mr. House and Mr. Clark
about you-- specifically about your prevention of injury status. You specifically stated a few things,
'It's unusual,' then you followed it with, 'My circumstances are not common,'
and then that, 'They,' the Brig, 'are not too bad. And, I understand it all'?
Yes, that's correct.
So, at the time, when you had Mr. House and Mr.
Clark there. Rather than mentioning
anything else this whole recording about your alleged treatment, you were
actually at that time, more focused on hiring private investigators to find a
fundraiser for you?
I considered that. Well, I had told them that.
Told them what, I'm sorry?
I had told them that I was thinking about
that. I'm-- I'm not quite-- the
private investigator? Like can
you-- can you clarify--?
Absolutely. So, rather then ever mentioning anything
that would even allude to your, to negative treatment by the Brig--
--you actually had most of the conversation
focused on hiring a private investigator to find a fundraiser for you.
A potential-- and I am also just a-- he is just
a friend that I had previously who had just dropped off the radar, sir.
Okay, so 18th--
--I wasn't-- I wasn't quite serious about it,
but, you know, I said-- I said-- I think I said to Mr. Clark-- it was Mr. Clark
who I was directing it to, but, 'It wouldn't seem like a bad idea.' It was more like a funny-- 'Hey, can you
help me find this person?'
--Okay, then-- but not on 18 September 2010--
--on that day, when talking to friends, you
were more concerned about other issues, than ever talking about your treatment
at Quantico Brig?
Okay. I would like to direct your attention to a few weeks later, 25 September
On 25 September 2010, you met with your aunt?
At the very end of your meeting, your-- your
aunt spoke about of asked you, 'Was there anything else you can think about
that you needed other than a little cash'? At that point you said, 'No not really. Just tell everyone that I am doing fine.'
And, then your aunt mentioned or replied, 'I
will. They are raising money, so
I guess. I mean I'm not sure if that the-- is that the-- I am not sure myself-- I
don't recall if that the exact wording, but to get me money for-- to fill in my
Okay. Your account to get haircuts, and--
--and other sundry items?
And then when your aunt continued to talk about
the raise money, you said, 'I mean it's still going to be a while before the
end of this confinement.'
And then at the end of the conversation, you
said, 'Tell everyone I am doing fine.'
So, during this entire conversation on 25
September 2010 with your own aunt, you never mention anything about any type of
treatment at Quantico, other than everything-- well, excuse me, your doing,
Now jumping a month-- actually, two months
ahead, 13 November 2010, you met with, you met with your aunt again?
And during that meeting, the only complaint you
had, was that no one had actually visited you at the Brig in almost a month?
And actually didn't say anything about the Brig
Okay. So, on the 13 November 2010, again there
was nothing else going on at the Brig that you felt compelled to tell you aunt
about at that point?
Well, I wasn't going to talk-- I wasn't going
to anybody under the recording circumstances about my confinement conditions.
Yesterday you talked about, that POI was the
highest priority on your mind every single day--
Yes, sir. It was.
--but you didn't take the opportunity, so far
to this point, when you were visited by David House and Danny Clark in early
September, you aunt again, your aunt again ever talk about your conditions at
After-- after they installed the recording that
So, the chance you actually had to talk about
it, and have it memorialize, if it was said, you chose not to?
Under those recording circumstances, yes,
I directed all the confinement and correctional
issues that I had to my counsel to give to family members and friends.
Okay. So, on 21 November 2010, you met with Mr. David House?
The conversation started with updates on
political and journalists network support for your developing case?
On his end, he was talking about that, sir.
Okay, and then Mr. House told you that Mr.
Coombs had asked you to get all the supporters together or asked him, and,
'Keep them quiet for now, so future pushes can be made through an aggressive PR
He might have said that, yes.
And, at that point in your conversation, you
were more focused on adding people to the public affairs list, by getting
recommendations, than even taking the opportunity to talk about your own
Correct, sir. Under those recording conditions, yes.
And you even explained, under those conditions
to Mr. House that-- that you been-- that have writing time, but you have chosen
not to write?
Mr. House asked you if you needed
anything? Asked you if you needed
anything? And, you only discussed
wanting cash and book? Cash for
that account and more books?
Yes, sir. That's correct. Because they
could-- from what I remember they could leave small amounts of cash into the--
at the Brig. I think they could
leave a twenty dollar bill, or something like that.
But not at like-- they couldn't use an ATM?
That is correct. I didn't have a-- it wasn't like a
swiping machine or anything like that, sir.
But also during that same conversation, rather
than discussing any treatment-- any treatment or alleged mistreatment, you
would rather-- you chose to discuss the possibility of having a WikiLeaks
organization lawyer assisting Mr. Coombs?
I did not. I did not discuss that.
Well, you had a back and forth with Mr.
House? He said it to you, and then
you had a discussion about whether it would be a good discussion or not.
That is correct. I mean I-- I was trying to avoid saying
a lot during these conversations. I
was mostly listening, sir. So, I
was mostly trying to listen, sir.
So-- so in that regard, when you did have the
chance to at least talk. In this
one conversation on 21 November 2010, you even were talking to Mr. House and
asking about how the glasses looked on your face, because you weren't use to
having-- normally didn't wear any glasses, but then started choosing to wear
I'm not sure what you mean by that, sir? That I-- that I wanted to wear glasses?
No. What you asked Mr. House was, how the glasses were looking, because you
started wearing them again?
Oh, yes. I did. I did ask him that.
And then at the very end, when Mr. House
finally asked you how you were doing, you simply answered, you're doing
alright, and are 'pretty stable.' And I quote, you actually said, 'Better than a significant portion of
I-- yes, I did say that.
And then Mr. House on that date, 21 November,
commented to you that you actually, 'doesn't even look like you have lost that
And then you responded, something to the effect
of, 'I've lost some muscle, but not really much weight.'
Ah, yes. My muscle mass was turning to flab, [some of the side effects?].
And then you were asked by Mr. House on 'Whether you had to perform hard
labor?' And you replied, 'No. You just sit up a lot.'
And then he commented, that 'It seems that's a
very sedentary lifestyle,' and you followed...you followed with, 'It's not too
That is correct, sir. That is what I said.
And after Mr. House said that, that 'You must
be running out of things to do, by sitting all day,' you simply then explained
that 'It wasn't that bad, like the people back in the Victorian age.'
Because you can specifically, 'Sit there, and
think a lot.'
Now, Private First Class Manning, I'd like you
to think back to Christmas Day, as you did before 25 December 2010.
You were visited by your cousin [Robin?].
[Robin?] [missed a word, maybe last name] Yes, sir.
And on that day, 25 December 2010, you were
asked whether you had seen yourself, or he had seen you on TV?
Something to that effect, yes.
And, your cousin then talked about-- he stated
that, 'Yes, the TV's talking about your bad treatment in jail.'
And then, you stated that, 'Yes. Mr. Coombs was very well spoken, and has
some good talking point.'
But, you did not even take that opportunity to
discuss at all with your cousin your confinement conditions?
But, you did focus on future talking points for
I am not sure what you mean by that question.
Well, rather than talking about confinement
conditions, you were actually commenting on the different ways that talking
points could be give, not about confinement, but generally family members talking to the media.
I didn't want them talking to the media,
sir...was what I want. That was a
general thing was that I didn't want family members talking to people.
And, so then later--
--go ahead, please--
--but-- I mean I was-- I was uncomfortable with
family members talking to media in general, sir.
Alright. Private First Class Manning, later during that same visit, rather than
discussing any condition in the facility on 25 December 2010, you were focused
on pictures of yourself on Facebook.
You had your dialogue with your cousin and
asking if certain ones could be taken off or others could [come? off?].
Yes. Because-- when I did-- somebody in the family had access to that,
because there were pictures that were up there, that had other people in them,
and I was concerned about that.
Now, I would like to think back to 5 February
This is the meeting where Mr. Coombs brought
Mr. Trevor Fitzgibbons to meet you for the first time.
You spoke to Mr. Fitzgibbons and Mr. Coombs for
more than an hour.
Probably. Yes, sir.
And, during this conversation you spent all of
the time focusing on developing your own public image, and public affairs
campaign, and fundraising, and never spoke about your confinement conditions.
That-- that-- I think that was the gist of the
conversation. I don't know how much
I took part in it-- I don't have-- I don't recall a lot, but that was a-- I
tried to play a passive role in listening.
Okay. And, then, at the end of the conversation actually, you will recollect,
Mr. Coombs left.
So, it was just you and Mr. Fitzgibbons.
And, at that point, Mr. Fitzgibbons said,
'Thank you for letting me help in anyway I can.' And that, he has been trying to use
David House on the television. But
even at that point-- even at that point when you are talking about David House
on television, you never mentioned anything about your alleged confinement
You both even joked about drinking Coke. That you were actually even getting
caffeine in the Brig.
It was a-- it was 'Volt' that I was
drinking. It was a drink that they
had at the OCS [Officer Candidate School]. I don't-- I don't recall-- maybe I used the word, 'Coke,' but 'Volt' was
the drink there-- grey sort of a greenish yellow color. It's very similar to Mountain Dew.
So, that was the caffeinated drink that you
And then, Mr. Fitzgibbons told you that none of
your conversations with David House or him would ever go into the press.
So, you knew-- at least at that point, you
could tell him something.
Well, I mean we will still under-- I mean we
are still being recorded.
And you know its being recorded and kept.
And, you didn't even take that opportunity to
discuss anything about your confinement conditions.
Now, I would like you to-- to think back to 27
You met with Mr. Fitzgibbons and Mr. House
Yes, they were together.
Now this is 27 February. It's right before the March incident and
it's right before the New York Times March article?
I don't-- I don't know what those are, sir.
Okay. Well the article that I was talking about was used with Col. Oltman that
defense counsel was using about the email from Col. Oltman and Col. Choike
earlier this week.
During that meeting actually you had a
cold. This is the same time you
voluntarily did not do rec call because you were feeling ill.
And, actually David House had the flu, and you
laughed about how one had the other, and were afraid you would infect each
other. So you wouldn't have to--
We were in a non-contact booth there.
Okay. Then Mr. House asked you, 'How you were doing?'
And the only answer you gave-- the only answer
you gave was that you didn't feel well, because you were sick and really
I don't recall the antibiotics part, but I
needed medication [missed a few words].
And then later-- further Mr. House provided you
many details of the 'effort to put forward experts and others on your behalf
from the public.'
Yes, he did. He did. I mostly listened.
And then he told you, he was really psyched,
because it took a couple weeks to really recruit and find good people.
And, then the very next conversation, rather
then again, discussing any of your confinement conditions with him. You discussed your public image being
changed from just 'David House making comments to other supporters or others
trying to help'?
Yes. That was-- that was-- that was my sort of-- last dish attempt at trying
to see if Mr. House was actually taking heed of my requests through counsel to
stop to the press.
Which, he eventually did stop?
I don't recall that. We just stopped contact all together.
But, once again, you did not discuss your
confinement status at all?
So, you even have someone in the press with
you, and you have Mr. Fitzgibbons there a PR specialist, and you still chose,
not to ever discuss your confinement conditions with him?
And, despite what was being reported in the
press on 3 March, we'll talk about in a moment that you and I just spoke about,
you were actually spending a lot of this time talking about many different
random topics such like the Sex Pistols Rock band and-- and other-- other
And, then Mr. House explained to you how
'propaganda is really useful, especially in the television [role?]'?
Yes. We had a-- we had a intellectual conversation. I think he was quoting some-- some early
twentieth century works or something like that.
Later in the conversation you coughed, and were
asked if it was the food. You were
probed to see if it was the food that was making you sick?
And, you replied the food is 'Good. Not bad.' In fact, you went through it an talked
about the Swiss steak and the mashed potatoes you had for dinner--
And stated, 'It's not bad at all. I mean it's not the best I've had in the
military, but it's not bad'?
You were also asked by Mr. House, whether you
could get exercise? And you
responded, 'Yes,' but you stated, 'Not in the past few days, because you were
And, that was the time you that you voluntarily
elected not to do rec call, and still refused to sign that statement.
Yes, sir. It was still uncertainty as to the status of those-- of the documents,
whether they were sworn statements or not.
Okay. So, we just spoke about that email that was references yesterday. Private First Class Manning, it's a New
York Times article. It started
with, 'Do you remember this article about your treatment allegedly standing for
seven hours naked, and Mr. House commented on your conditions?
I don't-- I never actually me personally read
the article. I know of it, sir.
You know it was published on 3 March 2011?
In early March, yes, sir.
In that article, Mr. House mentions that you
were being pressured to cooperate with the Government?
That was-- those were his words, sir.
Correct. And, he also said in his words,
that he met with you on the previous weekend, and that is what you told him?
Did I say that to him?
Well, that is what I am asking you. Did you have a discussion with Mr. House
about being coerced to cooperate with the Government?
I have never-- I've never had-- I have never
stated that to him, no.
But that was just part of the PR campaign that
was that was going on?
I didn't-- I wasn't exactly sure what was going
on. I was hearing these-- I was--
that's-- from my understanding [missed word]-- I am mostly trying to avoid
talking to Mr. House-- except for talking about, you know, things that had
nothing to do either the facility, the case, the, you know, anything
surrounding that. I tried-- I tried
myself to avoid speaking anything about that, sir.
Which-- which-- which makes sense, but later--
and we'll get to it in a moment-- but, right now, I am just talking about 27
February 2011-- and so up to this point from the very first visitors-- recorded
visitors' conversations you had in September 2010 all the way up to 27 February
2011, you never told one person, or discussed with one person your confinement
On 13 March 2011, you also Trevor Fitzgibbon
and your cousin?
The conversation started talking about how
David, Mr. David House, is in England at that point, or was over in England.
And, actually, from what you mentioned before,
the conversation then basically went to you were concerned about the message
that David House was putting out there?
Definitely, yes, sir.
Because, in your words, 'you were hoping where
you mean that what he is actually--' - you're concerned with what 'he was actually
thinking or what he just saying'?
Yes, sir. That is correct.
Wait a minute. I didn't [missed word]. Ask that question again.
Yes, Ma'am. During this conversation that you had
with Mr. Fitzgibbon and your cousin, you stated that you had asked them about
And, you had asked because you're hearing
things and you're seeing things like you were getting worse?
And, you were concerned that that was what Mr.
House actually thought or just what he was saying?
Yes, I was concerned about that, yes.
I thought you asked him an either/or
question. Am I confused?
I asked a poor question, your Honor. And, That is why I'm re-asking
directly. I do not think I was
doing an either/or, but I will try one more time.
Look. I could be completely--
You stated that you were concerned of one
things-- one or the other thing. That this was your one concern. You concern was that was whether Mr. House actually thought that--
thought you were being treated [missed word], based off what he was saying or
--or if he-- or if he was just saying that, and
not actually believing it.
Alright. And at the same meeting you were very concerned, as you mentioned
earlier, that your family was talking to members of the press?
And, you were very concerned, because your
father was talking to the media-- members of the press?
And, your cousin's reassuring you that the rest
of your family was-- was trying not to-- to keep everyone [missed a few word]
from talking to members of the press.
Yes. Apart from my father, yes.
Correct. So, you were very concerned at the time and others at the time you
removed everyone's names from the list?
You were very concerned about family issues?
Definitely. Yes, sir.
But, also during this time, you never talked
about your actual confinement status.
You never talked about any type of treatment
from the Brig?
You never talked about any-- any-- anyway
guards interact with you?
And, you kept reassuring, everyone, your okay?
In fact, during this meeting you said that
everything was going, 'fine' except you are not getting much sleep.
And then you talked really just about 'March
Definitely. That is-- that is one of the highlights
of my year. I mean, yes, sir.
So, based off more than the twenty recordings
at Quantico, from 18 September to April--
--you never shared your alleged concerns, you
never, to anyone who visited you in person...
--despite if you had the opportunity--
--and that includes, you didn't-- your company
commanders, and, your first company commander and your First Sergeant, except
at the times it was documented?
I did talk about my confinement conditions to
First Sergeant Williams and Captain Casamatta routinely and repeatedly, sir.
But, never to the degree of documenting it?
And, never submitting the IG complaint in the
box to have a higher level look at what's going on?
I didn't-- again, I didn't-- I wasn't sure how
the inspector general portion worked for it, sir.
And, you also chose to not speak to the Brig
officials when given the opportunity at the C&A board?
I did go to them. I did-- I did start to go to C&A
When, you went, you elected not to talk to
them, when they asked you to explain why it was that you are-- that-- why it
was you made one statement and then changed the statement.
I did explain. I did attempt it [missed a few words].
I guess, just as a final question, Private
First Class Manning, yesterday, when Mr. Coombs was asking you about Mr. House
and other visitors, you specifically said, you wanted to make sure he didn't
stir anything up in the press?
But, then, why were you having all these people
come over, members that were representing you in the press, the entire time at
To gauge...to listen in to what they had to say
or something, and to give them some reassurance that-- that I am not dying or
anything like that--
So when that all happened...
--so, to give them a visual reassurance and to
keep them close-- keep them close to me, sir.
--but again, every time that happened, you
never took the opportunity to talk to them about this?
Definitely not. Yes, sir.
Thank you. No further questions, your Honor.
Yes, your Honor. [to witness] Pfc. Manning, why did you
refer to the guards and the facility as, 'very professional'.
They were always very professional, except
for-- even there were small occasions where they would leave their role as a
sort of-- because, as they are working there, they wear a duty belt and a
cover, and that whenever they are in that, they are playing a role as a Marine,
and as a Marine correctional specialist, and they never seem to leave that
role, when they are wearing that...that cover and that belt, sir.
Did you believe that the guards and their activity,
and how they were treating you, other than on maybe 18 January, was
Absolutely. Definitely, very professional.
And, can you tell Colonel Lind, why?
Well, they never-- they never spoke
degradingly, apart from, you know, in the-- I mean, you know, there was the
military bearing-- in particular the Marines Corp style of military bearing,
which can be sort of aggressive, but it is still very professional. I mean they never-- they never left
that. It was always very-- to be
professional. I don't know how else
to describe it for you.
And, with the guards being the people you
interact with most--
Why did you then say the facility was
Again, the facility is professional. I mean, it runs, you know. Everything runs on time. Show runs on time. Everything-- everything runs on time.
They go by the-- they go by what is written in the books. They go by what is written down. They go by whatever orders are written
down. They do exactly what they are
told, and they very-- they very infrequently deviated from that from what I saw
at the facility, sir.
Did you ever have any problems with any--
again, setting aside 18 January-- did you ever have any problems with any of
the guards as far as how they were treating you?
I mean there were some minor instances here and
there of a-- of a uncomfortable moment-- I mean I knew that there was one
particular guard that didn't particularly-- I knew I got the vibe from him that
he didn't particularly like me or want to be around me, but I-- I didn't-- we
just avoided each other essentially, and we didn't talk very much, sir.
Was this any of the guards that were involved
in your-- in the 18 January or to your knowledge the 2 March incident?
No, sir. The a-- this guard was Corporal Ratiglio [sp.].
Okay. So, now let's talk about the voluntary forms. You said you received advice of counsel
to not fill those out.
And, can you tell Colonel Lind about that?
Yes. I started-- I mean the facility started to give me-- I mean, they would
give an inmate-- they would give me as an inmate this form, this 'voluntary
statement'-- they would give it to me, anytime that I had-- that I wanted to do
something that was different from the schedule.
So, if I wasted to change, you know, if I
wanted to-- it was more for like refusal of eating or things like that-- which
I never-- I never-- I never to my knowledge put that as a sworn statement that
I am refusing chow or anything like that, but that's an example of one where it
would be use.
Or recreation call was another one, where
they-- where if you flat out refuse recreation call, then they would ask you
to.-- initially they would ask me to fill it out, and I did.
But, if I was not feeling well or if I just
didn't feel like going outside or doing recreation call, then I would fill it
out without a problem.
Alright, so once you received advice of
counsel, not to fill out these forms, when it really wasn't voluntary on your
There was a moment-- I don't recall when, it
was probably towards the December timeframe, whenever they started-- they went
to these voluntary statements routinely and they-- they kept on putting them in
front of me for times, whenever I wasn't getting-- cause there were days in
which they-- I would not get rec call, and you know I would just miss it.
And, that happened before, you know in-- I
don't recall what day it was, and then, I mean, I would mention it, and then it
would be-- I would get comp-- I think I would get comp time-- like if I had a
sunshine call one day, then I would-- if I missed a sunshine call one day, then
I'd get a recreation or I'd get a sunshine call with thirty or forty minutes
the next day-- because it's sort of comp-- cause it's sort of comp time for
And, that's early on, but there was a certain
moment, where they started giving me these sworn-- these voluntary statements,
and I don't know.
But, it has a swearing word verbiage at the bottom,
that I wasn't sure what the status of this document was. And, I was getting increasingly
concerned about having them-- having them presented pretty easily, and what
Okay. So, once I gave you that advice, did you ever have an exchange with
Chief Barnes, about whether or not you would be in trouble if you crossed out
or refused to fill out these forms?
Yes, sir. There was a-- she's said something that it's against Navy Regulations to
cross out and initial portions that removed the voluntary language-- I mean the voluntary language and the--
and, I don't have the verbiage in front of me, but-- I mean to basically cross
out and initial on the language that I was uncomfortable with.
And, the fact that I was not allowed to-- she
also said that I was not-- that I had to fill these out, that I was not allowed
to just flat out refuse to fill them out, sir.
I am showing you enclosure 26 to the
Government's response. I believe it
is appellate exhibit 259. Do you
see-- if you would-- if you would open up to-- just go to [missed a few
In this form, you said that when the First
Sergeant commander would ask you questions, and you would kind of go through it
Now, when you get to-- let's use the 10
September form, which is page seven on that. You see, where you start to talk about
prevention of injury and suicide watch?
And, what do you-- how do you respond to the
question, "Do you understand why you are on suicide watch or injury
'No.' Well I checked them. That's
what I see.
And, what do they write down there?
'Not aware of why.'
So, now I could without going through all this,
but I would just ask the Court to take a look at each of these.
On probably two separate occasions, Pfc.
Manning states why he not aware of the reasons for why he is on POI.
So, when you were addressing this with the
First Sergeant or the Commander, what would their response be?
That-- I mean we would just-- I mean we went
over it, because we went over it a lot, and in terms of updates.
If there wasn't an update on anything, we
just-- we just. I would say, 'No. I
And, we would move on to the next
sometimes. It wasn't always the
case, but we would verbally talk about it.
Now, you also on another occasion. Now this is to fast forward a little bit
to 11 February--
--and that would be page 61 of 87 on the
appellate exhibit. Do you see where
you respond to, or at least your commander, in this [missed word] case, it's
Sergeant First Class Jones wrote down your response on the POI?
And, what do you say in response to whether or
not you know why you are on SR or POI?
It says, 'Do you understand why you are on
suicide watch or injury prevention?' And, I checked in the box, 'No,' or Sergeant First Class Jones does.
And what else does Sergeant Jones write?
He doesn't write anything in the [missed word]
right there. It just says, 'injury
prevention six months.'
Okay. When your commander was coming to talk to you about this, you were at
least addressing with them the fact that you didn't know why you were on POI?
What was from your understanding, if you could
tell Colonel Lind, your understand of once you raised the issue with your
counsel, how we were going to try to handle the issue of you being on POI and
Yes. We-- I mean we looked at it from the vantage point we wanted-- I mean I
wanted to get off of POI, and the best way to accomplish that legally was to
exhaust my administrative remedies.
And that was to go through each different step
in the process, and you know, reach that conclusion.
We figured we would get there, you know, about
a few-- we would check on-- we would check on a couple of these boxes in terms
of exhausting administrative remedies, eventually the POI restriction would be
Alright, so before I advised you on filing a
complaint or doing anything.
What was the first thing informally that we
talked about possibly a way to get you of the MAX and POI?
Just talking to the staff. And, talking to-- in particular, I mean
it was the health care provider in particular that I was talking to.
Did I inform you at that point, what I would be
doing to try to get you off of MAX and POI?
I don't recall.
Do you recall me ever saying that I was going
to talk to the trial counsel about this?
Yes. We discussed this over the phone, and you-- I mean you said that you
would-- I mean because I brought it up through my counsel, through you,
As soon as I brought it up to you, you said,
'Hey,' you know, 'this is something I need to bring up with trial counsel and
see-- and see what they are doing in their mind,' or, 'what they can do about
this on their end.'
And, I know it's been a while, but do you
recall kind of what I was telling you was happening from, you know, I was able
to do for you?
You emailed them. You emailed, I remember then
Captain Fein, now Major. Fein
responded back and said that he was going to look into it.
And, with regards to, I guess, the actions that
were being taken informally. When
did that come to a head, in your mind, where those steps were failing, and
you'd be more formal?
I put in a 5-10 in December, and I have always
vocally said to the staff.
You know, I started asking questions. I got this discrepancy between-- I
remember I got this discrepancy between what now Master Sergeant was saying and
what Captain Hocter was saying about why I was on POI status.
So now I know, [missed word] had no idea what
the justification was because medical health provider is saying one thing.
The counselor is saying another thing. And, I remember I put in a 5-10
regarding that to, I believe I directed it to Gunnery Sergeant Blenis-- then
Gunnery Sergeant Blenis.
And, I never heard back on it. I never-- I don't know what happened to
that form in mid-December.
And, because we-- nothing ever came up with
them, and I talked to you about the fact of [missed a word], and we decided to
go forward or I thought you meant, because I misunderstood, because I put in
another 5-10 to the commander.
I think you, as I found out earlier, that you
sent a memorandum detailing the exact same thing, but through the [missed word]
So, it's still me requesting from the commander
to review it, but--
Do you know if we received any sort of response
from my memorandum directly to Chief Averhart?
I don't recall. I don't recall what that was, sir.
And, after a period of time--
--I mean obviously nothing happened.
And, after a period of time we filed a 138
complaint, what did I tell you about that process?
From what you-- from what you said, and what
from doing, you know, I think you had to do some paperwork on the 138-- the
Article 138 process, and so I had that, but it was just-- it was just for
general-- it was that, we take a commander-- it has to be a commander that
makes a decision and whether or not-- and, I-- and we have to believe that I
was wronged in them making that decision, but in some way, according to the
And then-- and then we would bring that up to
the next highest-- the next high level to the General, all the way up to
General Court Martial Convening Authority, and to the Service Secretary
And, when I was explaining the process to you,
you got denied at every step of the way, all the way up to the Secretary of the
Navy in this instance.
What did I tell you what I would do next?
We would file a writ of extraordinary relief to
the Army Court of Criminal Appeals.
What was out goal there?
It was to get off of POI status, sir.
Now, obviously we didn't have to do that,
because you got moved, right?
That is correct, sir. We accomplished out goal.
Trial counsel asked you a lot of questions
about the family visits that you got, and the conversations that you had.
Do you want to tell me why, you didn't want to
talk about your confinement conditions when you family and friends visited you?
Two reasons. One, I didn't want to my family-- I
didn't want my family to be worried or concerned about me.
I mean I am sitting in front of them. They can see-- they clearly see that I'm
in, you know, restraints and everything else.
And, I can see that they are uncomfortable with
what they see. And, I didn't want
to bring that up.
They see that I have two Marines behind me, and
I didn't want them to-- I didn't want them to have to experience-- experience
much more of that. I didn't want to
bring it up. It's like the elephant
in the room, sir.
What were you concerned about from that?
I was also concerned that-- that they might end
my-- they might secure my visits, and say that I did something wrong, because--
it was understood that you weren't really suppose to talk about what's going in
I mean I don't know if that's the rule or
anything, but it was generally understood that it was probably not a good idea
to talk about the facility like, you know, like any specific details about it
to visitors first, for both security reasons, you know, and that the whole
process of everything, dates and times, and transport issues and things like
I didn't want to get into the-- into the
details of, you know, because I figured that would be a very quick reason to
end those visitations for security reasons, sir.
Okay. Now, why did you chose not to write a lot as far as sending out letters?
Well, I didn't have-- I mean I was able to
visit family or I was able to have family visit. I got that backwards. I couldn't leave, so I couldn't visit
So, because I was in that area, and most of
my-- most of my family are in or were available to visit, I didn't see as
necessary-- I didn't see it as being necessary to have to write a lot.
And then, I didn't want to facility to--
because I-- in the few time that I did write something, they would scrutinize
every single word, and ask me what I meant, and if I was trying to use code
words or something like that.
So, I was really-- I was really uncomfortable
writing anything, because I knew the guards would go through it.
Another question caused me a little bit of
confusion, because Major Fein asked you about you saying, 'How do I look? I am
wearing glasses again.'
My understanding is you need glasses. Do you need glasses?
I do. I wear-- I'm near sighted. I
would wear contact lenses, but, you know, correctional facilities don't
typically allow you to keep those, unless you don't have any other means until
you can get glasses.
So, what he meant was, you normally wear
contacts, and now you wear glasses?
Okay. That makes sense.
So, I asked him how I was looking, cause I just
tried to avoid-- I just tried to avoid the big issues.
The Facebook photos. You wanted certain Facebook photos taken
down or what not, what was the concern there?
Just family and I didn't want-- I didn't want,
you know, a lot of people to go through my personal photos and stuff.
I mean I didn't have a-- I didn't have a
public-- I mean if you have access-- only friends or friends of friends have
access to my Facebook account and I kept that-- you know-- so if you searched
my name in 2009, you wouldn't be able to find my Facebook or anything like
Because I didn't want people to-- I didn't want
to spread to much of my pictures and things of what I was doing. And, I wanted to-- more people were
having access to it, since some people that were friends, and I didn't have
access to my Facebook account at this time, and I still don't.
But, I would have the person who was a friend
start to copy pictures from my account-- to copy messages that were posted in
2009 or 2008 that were up there.
And, I was uncomfortable with that, but I
didn't-- I didn't, because people already had exact verbatim copies of
everything after that point.
So, when you mean you were uncomfortable with
--Facebook being out in the public?
The public, public. Because, I mean I had-- I know-- I know
that Facebook is public but, I mean, I had restrictions on my account circa
2009, and early 2010 that, you know, I even considered having somebody just
delete the account.
But, it became no longer a priority, after--
after somebody had already verbatim copied everything and copied all the images
and everything else. Then, I didn't
see the point.
Okay, so when somebody copied everything--
It was too-- too late at that point.
--that became public then?
Somebody was going to make-- somebody was going
to make it public. And, it
I think there is a verbatim of everything,
including an entire copy of my friends list out there.
And, that was another thing. I didn't want people that-- to get
targeted for being associated with me in any way, shape, or form with me.
Okay. Now trial counsel also asked you some questions about fundraising. What was your concerns about
I don't know. I don't recall exactly what I was
saying, but they're doing most of the-- I'm trying to keep it so they're doing
most of the talking.
I don't want-- I'm not really involved in
fundraising or anything like that, sir.
I mean I know that-- I know that you are
getting paid, that-- that is an agreement that we have that you are getting
paid, sir, so.
I don't know how exactly how that process works
or whatnot, but it's working.
That's what I understand.
That's what I understand too.
I wasn't going flat broke was my main concern.
So, in statement's not going to the press. Trial counsel asked you questions about
the fact that you told Mr. House and Mr. Fitzgibbons that you didn't want what
you said to them to go to the press. Why was that?
I didn't want, you know, I didn't want any
[missed word] to really-- I mean I saw this as being a, you know, a case-- from
a case standpoint, I wanted this-- I wanted a proper court-martial.
I didn't want-- the court of public opinion was
not where I wanted this, you know, to all take place.
Did you ever give me, as your counsel, any
guidance on going to the press?
Yes. Limited. I gave you a lot actually. [laughs] I remember that I
didn't want you to do much. If
you-- I remember you-- you had Mr. Fitzgibbon contact you or he contacted-- I
don't know how that went.
I don't recall, but just as a consulting role
from what you understood, and the way I understood it was just to advise us on
that. And, how certain things might
look or what not.
Generally, what was your guidance to me about
speaking to the press?
My guidance to you. Limited and text. If it was going to be-- if it was going
to be something that, you know, if [people?] read your blog, I think is--
obviously, I don't have access to a computer or the Internet, so I haven't seen
it myself, but I have seen print offs and things-- was that you-- that you just
post things up, and try to get as accurate as possible, and try to get to the
actual topic and try to be as factual as possible, and try to be as neutral as
So, you didn't want me running to the press and
making grand comments about it?
And, making interviews and basically
grandstanding is the way I would term it-- termed it to you, sir.
Now there was some confusion over a kind of a
compound question of trial counsel where mixing a couple things regarding Mr.
And, there were apparently some statements
about your overall health? For the
Judge's edification, what were you concerned about regarding Mr. House's
statements about how you looked and what was going on with you in the
Well the-- I was-- I was worried that the
facility in particular was going to use those to justify continuing the status,
What about factually the statements that you
were looking worse and worse. You
were not responsive, and all that stuff?
I tried-- I tried to convey the fact that I was
stable, and that I was improving, you know, whenever I got there.
I mean in terms of being-- I mean I don't
know-- I don't know how objective they were-- I mean I was-- and that was why
that particular question came up because I wasn't sure if that was what he
actually believed or if that he was just saying that to get press
attention. [missed a few words].
And, obviously, you would agree that Mr. House
and the other where just there trying to help you really?
They-- maybe-- I didn't know. I didn't know for sure. I didn't-- that is why I limited my
I was trying to just be very careful in what I
said, and how I interacted.
I mostly-- like the substantial like the
conversations occurred through you.
So, my concerns and my criticism came from you
in particular to them in regards to the confinement conditions and et cetera
from my vantage point. I don't know
if that was a confusing answer.
No. It made perfect sense. Thank
Now, Pfc. Manning, I have a few questions
In the command visit notes that the trial
counsel went through with you?
As I went through them I looked at the 10th,
the 19th, and the 23rd, and the 30th of September; the 27th of October; the
10th, 14th, 23rd, and 30th of December; and the 10th, 5th, 14th, and 20th of
January; the 12th, the 11th...I'm sorry...the 4th, the 11th, the 12th, and the
23th of February; and then 2, 11, 18, and 23, and 31 March of 11. You check a lot of the boxes or the box
is checked that you don't understand why you are on POI?
That is correct, your Honor.
But, the 7th, 15th, the 21st of October and the
12th and the 26th of November, say you do.
I'm not sure where that discrepancy comes from,
but I did-- I did say that I did not understand. Most of them--
Well, there's like a six week chunk were you
say you do. That's what's
Can you-- can you-- I mean what are those
The chunk-- the chunk were you say you do is--
begins on the 7th of October and goes to the 26th of November--
--absent the 7th [missed word?] of October were
you say you don't understand. I
think that I am a little confused as to why there is that difference?
Well, I started to understand-- from my vantage
point I understood that it was Captain Hocter's recommendation that I remain on
So, I understood why that-- why I was placed on
POI, and that was because Captain Hocter was making the recommendation, even
though he was not making that recommendation.
That was what I understood. I did not know what the recommendations
were at that time.
And, what changed to make you not understand on
the 10th of December?
Through discussions with then Gunnery Sergeant
Blenis and through Captain Hocter, I started to get discrepancies and I was
very concerned at that point, because--
And, I started-- I mean I wasn't sure who to
believe in terms of whether it was Captain Hocter that was keeping me on
prevention of injury status or making recommendations to the commander to keep
me on prevention of injury status or whether it was the C&A board; or
whether or not it was the-- just the commander making the decision, other than
I did not understand.
When you talked to your chain of command during
these visit, I mean was it just a check the box thing or did you say, 'Hey, I
don't understand why I've been here four month, six month--'?
Yes. It wasn't just a check the box.
Sometimes it was, just because-- I mean I am
not going to say it wasn't a serious thing-- because, nothing would have
changed between the different command visits.
So, since I had an understanding with Captain
Casamatta that, you know, 'Hey, I'm on-- I'm on prevention of injury status and
I would like to get off,' but--
Did you ever ask him to help you?
I did, Ma'am.
Well, I wasn't sure what he could do.
I mean, he's-- he's in the Army-- on the Army
side of the chain of command and he was my company commander.
I didn't get the impression that it was-- I
mean I always thought that he was looking out for my best interests and-- and
following up on whenever I had concerns or something, he would follow up on
And, I would get-- I would get these
communications-- I think I was getting his communications with Mr. Coombs about
that as well that the command was, you know, still raising the concern through
their chain of command.
I don't-- I think there was a particular
incident where-- and I don't-- I don't have personal knowledge of it, but where
Captain Casamatta was talking to the Battalion commander and to the-- I think
he went directly to Colonel Coffman about the status [missed word], you Honor.
Did he ever say anything to members of the Brig
personnel and ask them to [missed a few words]--
They always-- they were always at the physical
Brig itself, and they would talk to the guards behind me, and they would
sometimes talk to-- to the DBS or the Quantico Brig commander, whoever that was
at the time, whether it was Chief Warrant Officer Two Barnes or Chief Warrant
Officer Four Averhart.
But, I mean I don't know what was in these
So, at any time did Captain Casamatta or
anybody in your chain of command come back to you and say, 'I talked to Chief
Averhart, and he told me that based on these following considerations that this
is the reason that you're still on POI'?
Yes. I had talked to him, and he had said that he had was-- he was speaking
to the Brig staff about these issues every time, and he was looking into
And, he kept on looking. And, he kept on looking into it, and he
was being cognizant of what was going on.
I listened. That was the understanding that I
had. In particular with-- with
Captain Casamatta and First Sergeant Williams. I mean they were quote 'tracking the
You arrived at Quantico at the end of July--
Yes, you Honor.
--you are on 'suicide risk' at that point...
--what kind of clothing do you have at that point, at night?
At night I have underwear, T Shirt, and I don't
recall if I had socks or not. I
think I did have socks.
What happens at reveille?
I would have-- I would be given-- after
reveille would be announced-- some period after that, whether it was during
five of twenty minutes-- I don't recall the exact number, because there was a
hygiene call with that-- then I would have-- I would be given either a duty
uniform-- I would be given their duty uniform, because I didn't have sweats or
anything at that time.
When they come-- where I am going with this
is-- when they come to the count what are you doing and what are you wearing?
I was wearing underwear, socks, flip
flops-- and I'm recalling this a
lot easier now.
It's a better question I think-- and I had a
POI-- and I was authorized to wear and expected to wear a POI blanket over--
because I was just wearing underwear or just underwear and a shirt, your Honor.
So, you're wearing underwear and a shirt, and
you are authorized to put the POI blanket over you?
During count. Yes, your Honor.
Whom-- how do you know you were authorized to
They instructed me that it was-- that it was okay,
because I was on suicide risk in that for a particular time, and that they were
aware of that, and that I should-- that I should cover up, and that, you know,
they didn't want to be demeaning or anything like.
You testified earlier that during reveille
everyone had to stand first at parade rest, then at attention, then at parade
--are you suppose to-- how do you do that with
a blanket? Or did they allow you to
put the blanket...
--or they did allow you to put the blanket and
whatever and hold it over your front?
That-- that is the position, so. You were-- I would usually-- I would
typically have it covered and holding it, your Honor.
Let the record reflect that the witness has his
arms over his chest.
Yes, so it would be covered and then my legs
would be spread during parade rest-- parade rest and that. And, then I would bring them together
for attention, but still with the arms over the chest, your Honor.
When you go to POI what do you got at night?
I think I was given a-- I don't exactly recall
but I think I had-- there were handling instructions, but I think I was
authorized a part of shorts.
So, I didn't-- that mooted the issue of having
to have a blanket for-- for standing by for count and count, your Honor.
Alright. 3 March the morning of-- walk me through from the beginning.
On 3 March they announced count or they
Before we get there let me just ask a couple of
questions. How many guards are in
the Brig right around before reveille?
I have no idea your Honor.
Or in the observation room?
In the observation room, there was usually
between two and four Marines Corps personnel.
At night. At day. Usually, it was
staff [missed a few words].
I'm sorry. Let me direct you back to the 3 March.
Yes, your Honor. So, they announced, 'Reveille Reveille
Reveille' in the housing unit, then 'Stand by for count.'
I was not given hygiene-- We did not do a
hygiene call. So, it was not a
'shaving before count.' So, then
I-- I stand up, and I don't have any clothes. I just have the POI blanket, but, I
don't have flip flops. So, it's
just stand at the front of my cell as normal, but with-- at a modified position
at parade rest.
Wait a minute. You don't have a POI blanket? Am, I confused?
I have two POI blankets. So I have-- I don't have clothes.
Okay. Would you be standing the same way that you would be standing as you described
earlier when you had your underwear?
Yes. Yes, Ma'am.
With the blanket wrapped?
Wrapped around, yes.
Around you, okay. Go on.
So, then I would have the blanket wrapped
around me, and then I was instructed-- And, then-- I mean I don't exactly know
how-- how it was worded, but-- but the door was cracked-- and the door cracked
open and-- and--
The door to the observation booth opened.
The guard inside then asked something to the
effect of like, 'Detainee Manning,
is that how you stand at parade rest?'
I wasn't sure how to answer that question in
terms of both: I couldn't see really-- I mean I didn't have my glasses and I
couldn't see rank or if that person standing at the door. I believe-- I believe that the person
was sitting down.
Did you recognize the voice?
I did not, your Honor. They-- from the
observation booth they sound mostly the same, unless it's something over the
intercom. They-- the male voices sound pretty- It echoes. They sound really similar.
And, I don't recall-- I recall being confused
about that-- about the rank in particular.
And, then I said-- I tried to word the question
something to the effect of, 'Excuse me, Lance Corporal,' or 'I'm not sure what
you are trying to ask.'
That was the gist of what I was trying to
ask. I don't recall the exact
And, then the phrase-- the statement was said
again. And, then I-- I think I
asked. I recall asking, 'Should I
put the blanket-- Do you want me to put the blanket down?' And then there being a, 'Yes,' or
something like that. So, I set the
blanket down and went to parade rest, your Honor.
What happened after that?
Then they went through count. Or they announce-- they announced--
Oh, I'm sorry. Was there a response to that?
No. I just-- Well, the door closed. So, the-- the door was [missed word] only cracked open.
When did the door closed?
When did the door close? After I set the blanket down, your
Was there a response? You asked, 'Do you want
me to put the blanket down?' and [missed a few words] respond?
I set the blanket down. Before, I set the blanket down, I
think-- I think, yeah-- I think there was a, 'Yes. Detainee Manning--,' or
something to-- I don't recall if it was just a, "Yes,' or if it was a-- or
if it was a verbatim instruction [missed a few words].
Okay. So, what happens next?
Then-- because-- I mean we're standing-- we're
standing by for count-- That was the status that we were in at that time. And, then as the Duty Brig Supervisor
comes near special quarters, from the view point of the guards--
And, I am inferring this from just experience
of being there--
Then, they unlock the door and then one of the
Marines comes out on the opposite side of the observation booth of the other
So the door opens on the opposite side where
the other two cells are-- are at, and then announces to the entire housing
unit, 'Special Quarters Atten-hun' or 'Attention.'
And then the Duty Brig Supervisor comes in and
goes to-- goes to my cell and then does the knife hand move and then walks on.
Okay. You say the Duty Brig Supervisor comes in. What do they do for count when they go
by your cell? Do they-- Do they face
your cell? Do they walk in a
straight line past your cell?
They-- They walk with a sense of urgency past
the cell, but they stop, they slow down for each cell and then they do sort
Depending on who it was-- I remember this
particular-- this particular morning that it was-- I couldn't see who was it
I didn't have my glasses on, but there was a
knife hand movement, and then moved-- and then continued on down--
Let me see what a knife hand movement is [missed
a few words].
Like that. [demonstrated with his hand]
Like you are cutting a cake?
Yes, your Honor. So-- [demonstrates with his hand]
Towards-- Towards-- this end.
And, are the lights on?
The lights are on, yes. Both in-- outside the cell, throughout
special quarters, and inside my cell, yes.
And, what happens after the knife movement?
Then-- I mean-- He is still walking but slows
down for that movement, and then continues walking very quickly-- Increases the speed back to the--
And, what happens next, what do you do?
Well, I wait for the command. As he goes to the other side of this
horseshoe arrangement, and exists in what they call bravo row door--
Which was the alternate side on the opposite
side of the observation booth, and then the guard announces, 'Parade rest,'
again, and then you stand, and then I stood back at parade rest until-- until I guess they announce, 'All clear,' over
the radio, and then we fall out.
And, then we walk back to [missed a few words],
and then we fall out, Ma'am.
Okay. And then moving on then to the morning of
4 March, what happened?
4 March. That's the morning after this. You know, what I recall at least-- I mean I don't know-- I don't recall
how many days this occurred, but I--
Whenever I was getting out, 'Reveille Reveille
Reveille,' at this-- at this point in time.
They had my clothing all ready set up on the
feed tray of the cell. So, as soon
as they announced-- as soon as they announce, 'Reveille Reveille Reveille,' I
am able to grab my clothing.
Put it on. Put my glasses on. Then,
whenever-- Then, I'm-- I'm semi dressed by the time--
Or I might be completely dressed by the time
they announce, 'Stand by for count,' your Honor.
Okay. 5th of March?
5th of March. I don't recall if-- I don't recall if it
was two days or one day between whenever I had this, but on either the 5th or
the 6th of March, I did not receive my clothing on the feed tray at reveille.
So, I sat sort of Indian style with the POI
blanket until they announced, 'Stand by for count.'
And, then given the guidance that I had, that I
understood from that, I stood by at the front of the cell back at parade rest
without the POI blanket, just like the other day-- Just like the 3rd of
But, before count was announced, one of the-- I
mean the guard had quickly placed and handed me clothing.
So, that I was able to dress and I was dresses
just in time for whenever they announced for-- Just in time for them to
announce, 'Attention.'-- 'Special Quarter's Attention.'
So, if I understand your testimony then there
is one morning that you're standing naked at 'Attention.'
Yes, Ma'am. Completely, for that entire
'count'. Yes, your Honor.
Okay. So, you testified earlier that during hygiene call your given a razor to
Is that true on suicide risk?
Yes. It's true for all status.
Do they watch you while you are doing
that? Or did they--
--just leave it with you in the cell?
Sometimes they would-- Yeah, they would most of
the time-- They would just hand-- They would just leave it in my feed tray, and
then, you know, I would go, and they would leave.
They would get the razor and the shave cream
out of the cell adjacent to me, where I have my hygiene items, and they would
place it on the feed tray or hand it to me, if I was standing-- If I was
standing there, they would just hand it to me.
And, then I would put the shaving cream on my
face, shave, and then return, and place the razor and the shaving cream back
into-- Back onto the feed tray, you Honor.
What kind of razor was it?
It was a-- I remember-- I remember I had a
MACH3-- So a two blazed razor at one point, and then I had a Gillette Fusion at
one point. So, five bladed razor.
Where you told at any time that Gunnery
Sergeant Blenis didn't think that you were-- felt that you were being pretty
quiet during-- in arrival September, October-- that you weren't being very
I mean, I didn't know-- I didn't know how much
interaction-- I don't know what he means by that?
Did he tell you at any time during September or
October that, you know, 'You're not really talking very much. I'm concerned?'
Not that he was concerned. He certainly-- He certainly like,
'You're pretty quiet.'
And, I think I might have-- I think I might
have explained to him that, you know, 'I don't have a lot to say.'
I mean, 'I'm not really doing a whole lot.
There is not a lot going on,' you know.
We talked. Then, we had some small talk on occasions. We used to talk about current events,
sports, [missed word] theory, but--
Cause that is what is confusing me slightly too
is you testified yesterday that you were very extroverted person who wants to
be around people--
Yes, I do.
--then why didn't you talk when you had the
opportunity to talk to him?
Well, it's a different-- I mean, and I did talk
I felt that I was talking to him. You know, I
like to talk. I mean, I like to
talk [missed a few words] everything.
I get energy from-- from being around people or
group of people, but it was just this sort of one on one conversation, and I
felt that we were-- I felt that we were having kind of a decent
Sometimes-- Sometimes I just didn't have a
whole lot to talk about or I was just out-- out of energy from being bored all
day, and not really having a lot to do.
And, you know, we would talk about things that
were not necessarily that interesting to me. We didn't have a lot of similar
interests, me and now Master Sergeant Blenis.
We didn't have a-- we had some-- we had some
overlaps, in terms of college basketball, and things like that.
But, we didn't have a lot of similar interests
on certain things, at things on what I could gather.
When was the first time that you remember-- You
testified earlier that you tried to handle this informally in the
Did you ever talk to Gunnery Sergeant Blenis or
anybody else at the Brig about, 'What can I do to make you all think that I am
stable and I'm not--?
Yes, yes. Correct. Correct. I don't know when I started.
I mean in the very beginning I wanted to convey
the fact that whenever I arrived at Quantico Base Brig in July 2010-- I wanted
the staff to know that, you know, that I was fine.
I wanted to get off of the status, and I wanted
to find out how I could do that to [missed a few words].
You know, enjoy an increased quality of life
form my vantage point, your Honor.
The first time that you opted to appear in
front of the C&A board in January--
--why didn't you go earlier and try to make
your case then?
It was a lot of-- I mean-- There was a lot of
different-- There's a lot of different factors involved with that.
I mean one, I thought it was-- For the longest
period of time I thought it was-- I thought Captain Hocter was the person that
was making-- that was keeping me on.
And, that was my understanding at least for the
summer and autumn of 2010 that Captain Hocter was the-- was the person who
really made that call as to my status, your Honor.
And that was your understanding for the Fall of
When did that become not your understanding?
When I started to ask-- ask question to Captain
Hocter along the lines of, 'Why?'
I remember I asked him specifically what- what
he was recommending. I had not
asked what he was recommending to him. So, at a certain point I did, and it was at that point, that he told me
that he was recommending that I be taken off.
Then, I started talking to Gunnery Sergeant
Blenis about the fact that Captain Hocter told me that-- because Gunnery
Sergeant Blenis was telling- was telling me that it was the quote 'docs' that
were keeping me on 'prevention of injury status-- that were making that
recommendation after all.
Okay. So, Gunnery-- Let me make sure I understand. So, Gunnery Sergeant Blenis was telling
you that it was the doctors that were keeping you on POI status?
He would call them the quote 'docs'. I mean, I don't know if he's referring
to just Captain Hocter or other medical personnel.
But, he would call them the 'docs' or the
Did he or anyone else explain to you how the
C&A process worked?
I didn't not really get into the details of the
C&A board process. I just
assumed that everything was working in order and that I didn't need to be
I-- I didn't feel like-- I thought that-- that
improvement overtime would be enough for them to make a recommendation or not--
or for somebody to make a decision that eventually I learned it was the Brig
commander that made that decision but--
And, my last question to you will be, when in
the process did you- did you-- or did you ever come to believe that improvement
over time wouldn't change it?
Well, there was a-- there were two times that I
had come to that realization separately-- because of the change of command at
the facility or at the Brig.
So, after the January 18th incident which I was
placed on suicide risk status after I had talked to Captain Hocter and
Captain-- Captain Moore on that day.
I felt the sense that I was not going to get
off of this status ever, as long as-- or off of POI status in particular, even
though I was on SR status that at some point would come off of that, and just
go back onto POI status.
I was convinced that as long as-- as Chief
Warrant Officer Four Averhart is the commander of the facility that-- and I
knew that he was- he was going to have a change over soon, so I was-- I was
convinced that at that point nothing until the change in command-- or whatever
the Marines Corps calls it-- took place that I would continue to be on the POI
or SR status, a precaution status.
Any follow up questions based on that?
--Oh. I-- there was the second.
Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead.
So, the second portion was after the March 3rd
incident I was-- after the underwear comment that I made and the flip flops
that I made to Master Sergeant Papakie and to-- to Chief Warrant Officer Two
Barnes-- or that I made to Master Sergeant Papakie and then it was relayed to
Chief Warrant Officer Two Barnes.
After that-- a few days after that I did not
think that-- that I would-- I pretty much lost hope in the fact that the new--
this new commander was going to change [missed a few words].
Thank you. Any follow up based on that?
No, your Honor, but the Government does request
a quick follow up to issue that defense had elicited on direct.
Private First Class Manning just in reference
to a question that Mr. Coombs had asked you about when you met with your family
member in visitors booths, why you withheld certain information from them
This is in reference to that. That question. You testified...
You testified that you were concerned with your
family members worrying about you?
Were you concerned about your friends worrying
about you too?
Of course, but I mean, I didn't really have-- I
think friend wise I would call Mr. Clark a friend, so yes, in that sense, Mr.
Clark in particular.
For many of my-- for many-- for many of the
people that I considered friends did not come with-- to visit me, while I was
at Quantico Base Brig, sir.
And so what about-- and then, were you also
then worried about what the media consultants or the PR experts would think
when they came and visited you and you didn't talk to them about it?
I don't really-- I mean they-- they were-- they
I was more-- I was more concerned about
having-- having sort of-- because I knew that they-- no matter what they were
going to talk to whoever about whatever.
I mean they have-- they have First Amendment
rights to do that.
So, they can speak to whoever and whatever,
and-- but, I wanted them to-- I
wanted them to-- I wanted to hear from them, and see them personally.
So, that's why I sort of had them on the
visitor list, sir.
And then, as far as what you talked about
specifically about Mr. House, for instance--
--you were concerned about what he would- was
saying in the media?
Yes, sir. And, about how that would be perceived specifically by Quantico Base
Brig personnel, sir.
And-- and, you would agree that at some point,
you realized that what was being put out in the media wasn't necessarily
I would say so, yes, from their
standpoint-- I mean that's why I
had-- that's why we arranged-- why me and Mr. Coombs arranged for these blog
postings is because I wanted-- that was the-- we were really trying [to?] hold,
you know, the middle ground, and try to get just the facts--
As many facts as possible, and not, you know,
[missed a few words].
So there was information from people who did
visit you being put out to the media that was false about your conditions?
That I believe could be-- that was not
necessarily accurate or that was portrayed in a slanted light. I'm a
fact-- I am more of a scientific
person. I like things to be more factual, and as objective-- I mean as--
There's gonna be some subjectivity in this. That's inevitable in the world, you
In this [missed word] especially, you
know. To try to put as many
objective facts on the table as possible, and to counter a lot of the wildness,
is what I was particularly concerned about.
Well, thank you. No further questions your Honor.
[Missed but in the negative], your Honor.
Pfc. Manning please return to your chair.
Alright. What's the order of march next?
Sir-- or excuse me Ma'am, if we may--
if we may fifteen minute recess the United States will call and at that time
coordinate the phone call for the [missed a few words].
The Court is in recess until 25 after
16 hundred or 4 o'clock.
Please be seated. This Article 39(a) Session is called to
order. Let the record reflect all
parties present when the Court last recessed, are again present in Court. Captain Morrow?
The Government calls [telephonic] Lt.
Col Robert Russel. Lt. Col. Russel?
Lt. Col. Robert Russel
This is Captain Morrow.
You are on speaker phone in the
court-martial of United States versus Pfc. Manning.
Are you alone?
Are you able to speak freely?
I'm going to swear you in, okay?
Do you swear or affirm that the
evidence you give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Sir, you are Lt. Col. Robert Russel,
staff psychiatrist Joint Task Force GTMO?
Sir, how long have you been in the
Fourteen and a half years.
And, can you briefly describe for the
Court, your various positions in the Army?
[Missed two words] Joint Task Force
Psychiatrist at Naval base Guantanamo Bay, then [missed word] psychiatrist--
staff psychiatrist at Walter Reed, Afghanistan regional command psychiatrist;
Afghanistan Theater Mental Health Consultant-- [missed a few words]
psychiatrist, and [missed word] training in child and adolescent psych, and I
have some awards in public health.
And, what about your educational
I went to Des Moines University for Doctor
of Osteopathy degree, and [missed word] Honor Society-- Sigma Sigma Phi and
then did residency in preventive medicine and general psychiatry in a
fellowship in child and adolescent psychiatry.
Thank you, sir. I want to talk about your connection to
this case. Are you familiar with
How so, sir?
I was asked to see Pfc. Manning twice
as a treating psychiatrist.
And, who asked you?
His regular treating psychiatrist,
Col. Malone in his absence he requested my assistance when he wasn't available.
So, you were essentially just filling
in for Col. Malone.
Sir, do you have the-- well, let me
back up. How many times did you meet with Pfc. Manning?
Sir, do you have the documents we
sent you over email handy?
Can you grab those please?
I have them.
And, explain for the record what
Ma'am, I am referring to two
documents in enclosure 21, and I have copies for the Court, and we have them
marked as well.
[Missed a few words] enclosure 21 to
To the motion.
But we can have these as an appellate
exhibit. Sir, I want to talk about your 6 April 
visit with Pfc. Manning.
What was your-- as you talked about
with Pfc. Manning-- what was your general routine when you arrived at the Brig?
Prior to seeing Pfc. Manning-- I
talked to Col. Malone about any treatment issues just to provide continuity of care. I talked to the Brig staff-- the Brig
commander to see if there was any information that help me do my assessment.
And, who was that, sir?
You know, I can't remember the Brig
Does Chief Warrant Officer Barnes
Yes. That is the correct name.
And, so-- after you talked with Chief
Warrant Officer Barnes, what did you do next?
After I talked to Chief Barnes and
then I would-- have an interview with Pfc. Manning-- and talked.
And, how long did the 6 April 2011
I recall it was it was probably under
an hour-- maybe a little bit less or a little bit more. I can't specifically remember.
And, after-- sorry excuse me.
That's all, sir.
And, after the meeting what would you
Spoke to the Brig commander to bring
up any-- certain safety concerns. To clarify observations made by Pfc. Manning.
Sir, I want to talk about your
remarks on the 6 April 2011 form. You said that the 'service member's emotional and behavioral
presentation significantly varies from that observed by myself and by the
facility staff.' Can you explain
When I would interview Pfc. Manning
he's, you know, very social and very intelligent-- you know, [missed a few
works] an authority, but he didn't seem depressed or aloof-- or avoiding eye
contact-- a very, very engaged person.
When I would see the Brig staff they
would describe for me a completely different person-- flat affect, very withdrawal,
poor eye contact, who declined visitation-- rec, other opportunities like
I got the impression that his
presentation varied-- and could be dependent upon the person with whom he was
conversing. So, the person I
interviewed did not seem depressed-- but, the person that the Brig commander
described would-- I would say-- seem pretty depressed. So, the presentation could be varied.
And so, difference in presentation to
different individuals-- is that concerning from a psychiatric perspective?
It is. I mean it's, you know, [missed word] or
not consistent. I don't know what
the motivation was behind that.
I only met him twice. But, it seemed clear that the
presentation was varied from one person to the next. [Missed a few words], I would
interview him, I wouldn't be so concerned. But, understandably, I could understand how the Brig commander would be,
if her observations on a day to day basis-- not just one hour weekly visit.
Sir, you also stated that 'due
diligence for self-harm behavior is not unreasonable given his change in
behavior. Necessary reassurance of safety
is difficult to achieve if service member choses not to communicate with
Can you describe that please or just
what you meant?
Yes. [Missed.] I mean, he normally-- his baseline
behavior was very withdrawn-- [missed a few words] did participate, you know,
in [missed word] activities or opportunities to-- but that week the Brig
commander expressed more concern above that.
I can't remember specifically what
[missed word]-- he might have even received some negative news and she was
concern that-- even-- even compared to his baseline-- he was even more
withdrawn-- less talkative-- almost no eye contact.
Given his history of attempting
suicide at a time of significant stress-- at that time, I wasn't sure if-- if
this current stressor was also going to, you know, cause him stress or
difficulty and lead to suicidal thoughts.
So, it seemed to be an acute
situation-- just for that week. So,
that is what I put that comment in there. So, that is what his changes in behavior were to [missed a few words].
At that time sir, did you recommend
he remain on prevention of injury status?
I did at that time, because of the
factors-- acute change in behavior, which was preceded by -- I believe he was
by negative [missed a few words] or something like that-- I can't remember--
But given-- given that change that I
guess-- I concluded-- it's difficult to assess cases when the individual isn't
engaging with-- with the Brig staff, and there is no way they can ascertain his
safety, if he is not communicating [missed a few words], you know-- applying
some reassurance either vocally-- verbally or just, you know, in behavior-- you
know, taking advantage of recreation activities or whatnot, so.
So, I can see understandably the Brig
[missed word] would have some-- I say reasonable concern given that, and not
being able to get any reassurance from Pfc. Manning that he was safe-- that,
you know-- I talked in the language of the Brig commander-- she [missed word] genuine
concern for him and, you know-- I
indicated that it was probably be best to put him on POI and then reassess him
the next time.
Okay, sir. I want to move to the 15 April 2011
Sir, is it fair to say that Pfc.
Manning-- well, I will just let you describe-- what was the difference between
Pfc. Manning during this visit from your perspective?
From my perspective, none.
I mean, I thought he was again very--
very sociable-- very intelligent-- very engaging-- very bright individual.
I saw , from my perspective, no
difference from one interview to the next. What was discussed mostly in that
interview was follow up from the previous interview-- and during that, you
know, of course, [missed word] for Pfc. Manning and, you know, are these too
restrictive-- if he had the opportunity for rec-- I think I can't remember
specifically, there is something about writing and Pfc. Manning's perspective
on that there were many obstacles or a lot of paperwork that had to be done in
order to enjoy those opportunities afforded-- like recreation and it just
wasn't worth the effort.
So, following the first visit I
talked to the Brig commander and just asked-- you, know, is it true if it is
difficult-- are we adding unreasonable things that aren't expected from [missed
two words] of the detainee to do anything-- and it was explained to me, and
this is just recall-- that I believe to ensure his rec activity he just had to
fill out like a one page paper that wasn't very arduous and very simply done --
and their perspective, that he was just not choosing to do that.
So, the second visit I gave him that
feedback-- if I wanted use recreational activities I remember saying 'April in
northern Virginia, it's a wonderful time of year. I don't know why he doesn't want to go
outside and enjoy the sunshine and just relax,' and you know, I reassured him
that I talked to the commander and that it is very simple for him to do that.
And, you know, I also recall that the
Brig commander stated to me that she was actually affording him, I believe more
rec than she normally would for detainees-- which I think, you know, she
expressed a lot of frustration, because she was I believe trying to provide
[missed a few words] Pfc. Manning.
So, we kind of talked about these
obstacles as just a new thing. He
didn't have to just stay in his cell, because there are other opportunities
afforded by the-- We never got past that barrier-- I'm not quite sure what his
Well, what did-- did Pfc. Manning say
anything-- what did he say, when you presented the--
It wasn't really a response
back. It was more, just 'Well we
can't do this, 'but then it really wasn't talk about as much in a typical
discussion or you know anything positive or that-- that's good news or I'll
take advantage of that. It was--
the discussion didn't continue.
Did he provide an explanation of why
he felt the forms were too onerous?
No, I didn't go into it any more than
that. I just-- I just wanted him to
know that-- you know, I checked on it.
I wanted to make sure that, you know,
things weren't unreasonable-- and that meant reasonable would be relative to a
typical detainee-- and make sure that I didn't find that, you know.
And in fact the contrary, I found the
Brig commander actually very concerned-- you know, regarding [missed a few
words] and take advantage of rec call opportunities and I am pretty sure-- you
know, she said she would afford him more than the typical detainee.
But, you know, he declined. So, I took that as more-- at that
point, I realized though, that this is more than an active choice for whatever
reason-- you know, motivation he had.
To me at that point it seemed like
well, he knows he can do that if he wants to, but he choses not to so, I'm not
going to push him or badger him to do that. But, I do remember several times try to
tell him how nice it was outside and you know, it only lasts a month or two and
then it starts getting humid-- and, just try to convince him to get some fresh
air. And, I really don't remember
much more from that interview the last time.
Sir, do you-- did you recommend
prevention of injury again?
--or did you say that it wasn't--
well, let me-- let me ask you this: You said that-- excuse me one second,
You said, 'Brig providing reasonable
restrictions which do not cause any mental anguish. Discussed plan with staff.' What did you mean by that?
Well that-- that kind of speaks to
what I just previously commented to-- that, you know, I felt that there are varying
perspectives of-- Pfc. Manning had a perception that-- that there were these
extra demands placed upon him so he couldn't do these things.
And then, I found that actually these
demands were not [missed word] unreasonable and seemed to be consistent-- so
that was a reference for that.
Okay, sir. Thank you very much. I believe defense counsel will have some
questions for you as well as the military Judge.
Lt. Col. Russel, this is David
Coombs. I just have a few questions
for you. Okay?
Now, as you said the first time you
saw Pfc. Manning was on 6 April 2011? Correct?
And, you did not evaluate him before
You know, I actually went there-- you
know, I forgot about his. I
actually went there one previous time with Col. Malone, because he wanted to
show me where he would go, and paperwork, and things like that. But I didn't know-- let me just
backtrack. I actually saw him three
times. I saw him once with Col.
Malone-- but I don't remember when that was. Col. Malone wrote that note that day.
Right. But, you did not evaluate him on that
Alright, so 6 April 2011 was the
first time that you had in fact evaluated Pfc. Manning?
And, prior to the evaluation you
spoke with Col. Malone in order for continuity of care?
And Col. Malone was obviously telling
you that he was obviously recommending that Pfc. Manning-- well actually what
he was saying was that there was no clinical need for Pfc. Manning to be on
So, prior to your evaluation-- you
show up, you speak to the Brig commander?
And, the representations made by the
Brig commander varied significantly from the observations that you were making
talking to Pfc. Manning?
The staff told you that they noted
and increase in social isolation-- paucity of words during verbal interaction
or eye contact, is that correct?
And, you were looking at Pfc. Manning
seeing an entirely different picture?
What documentation did Chief Barnes
give you in order to show you that they were making these observations?
I don't remember. You know, I know verbal.
I can't remember if she-- if she show
me charts and forms-- or she [missed a few words] because I do remember this
And, you said that there were some
recreational activities that Pfc. Manning was not availing himself of-- did you
know that he was receiving one hour of rec call everyday?
I can't remember the specifics.
And, did you know that if he refused
the rec call for some reason they would document that?
I-- I assume that, but I did not know
Would it surprise you that he was
only authorized one hour of rec each day?
Well, again I can't have know the
specifics of the SOP for the Brig and Quantico.
What additional recreational
activities did Chief Barnes tell you that Pfc. Manning was not availing himself
This a recall-- but I remember
writing, paper and pencil or taking-- if he wished to write-- to do that-- it's was very, it's been a while, I
can't remember -- but I remember asking him the writing-- he could do it with
certain restrictions-- -- if there's-- if they were affording him to read
books, but if I recall-- he wanted to make notations in the books in order for
him to be able to-- he would like somehow keep track-- a way of making notes or
something and somehow that was a conflict with the Brig's SOPs, and [missed a
few words] and didn't have [missed a few words] -- again, I don't remember
detail-- but I remember there were certain things they were reporting Pfc.
Manning wished to do it a certain way-- and the Brig didn't agree.
So instead of just complying and
doing it how the Brig wished, he chose just not to do it at all.
It was something-- reading and writing
and paper-- and things like that.
So, not necessarily something
involving going outside and getting sunshine.
Well, that is one of rec
activities. Yes, going outside and
No, I understand that was a rec
activity, but that was not an issue where Pfc. Manning where Pfc. Manning was
saying, 'I'm not going to avail myself of the opportunity to get some sunshine.'
Well-- I mean, it was specifically
the first time that he [missed words] they made it too difficult-- the Brig
made it too difficult to do that before-- and then what I clarified them-- the
Brig commander followed up the subsequent week.
I didn't see any-- he didn't [missed
a few words] or any regulation that had anything to do with that. It was just-- it was normal-- it seems
more a conscious choice, not to do that in the conversation.
Dr. Russel is it possible that you
are memory of that isn't quite accurate if he was permitted one hour of
recreation call each day, and availed himself of that opportunity?
Well, I mean-- again, I can't
specifically remember the amount of hours that he would be allowed on rec.
Okay. Well, let's just go to some of the stuff
that you've got documentation of. You-- you basically
evaluated Pfc. Manning, you noted that he did appear to be of normal behavior?
He was fully alert?
Normal mood and affect?
Clear thinking process?
Normal thought content?
[Makes affirmative sound, 'mm-hmm']
And, you opined that Pfc. Manning's
mental disorder was stable?
You indicated he was a low risk for
suicide and self-harm?
And, 'low' on this form, is the
lowest thing that you can circle, right?
And, low in this regard means, like,
you know, like a person in the general population-- he is no worse, or no
better of a risk of committing suicide or self-harm, correct?
Now, you also indicated that you
believed he only needed routine examination?
Which was weekly.
Okay. And, you indicated in this form, that he
needed to be segregated from the general population? See that?
And, why did you fill that out at
Under the Brig commander was very
concerned for his safety fro other detainees.
So, that was based upon what the Brig
commander was telling you?
Now you state that you could not
recommend changing his POI status given his behavioral change, and you were
basing his behavioral change on what the Brig commander was telling you?
So, you were trusting what she was
relaying to you was accurate and truthful?
Now, as part of your evaluations, did
you review the prior evaluations of Col. Malone and his predecessor, Captain
And, were you seeing anything in
there that indicated that Pfc. Manning was withdrawing from people or beginning
to no longer converse with the staff?
No. I mean-- I remember notes of those type
of-- actually I think I had a conversation-- but in notes, no. I have never seen that.
Now, were you aware that Col. Malone
saw Pfc. Manning two days after you did the first time-- you saw him on 6 April
and Col. Malone saw him on 8 April?
And, you are aware that Col. Malone
opined at that point the mental disorder was resolved?
And, you were aware then, I
guess, at that point that Col.
Malone also opined that Pfc. Manning did not need to be segregated from the
I don't recall that.
Would you agree that Col. Malone has
a longer treatment history with Pfc. Manning than you did?
And, obviously he also had a longer
history of dealing with the Quantico staff and the personalities there, then
Now, you saw Pfc. Manning again as
you say on 15 April 2011?
And, on that date, he appeared to be
normal to you again?
Normal thought content?
You indicated that he was a low risk
again for suicide or self-harm?
And, you indicated that he was a low
risk for violence?
Again, you only believed that he
needed routine examination?
And you stated that Pfc. Manning was,
quote 'not a danger to self or others' unquote?
In this evaluation you entered 'NA defers
to the command on segregation'? Why?
Well, it had to do with a
detainee. They were concerned with
his safety-- I guess, so, [missed a few words]-- I would defer to them for that
Alright, so clinically you weren't
seeing anything that would require Pfc. Manning to be segregated?
Did you ask Pfc. Manning about
limiting his interaction with the staff?
I know we had several conversations--
but, I can't recall what.
Were you aware that Pfc. Manning was
being stripped of his underwear at night at the time you were evaluating him?
And, did you know that, that was due
to him having a conversation with the member of the staff where they believed
that one of his statements he indicated an intent to self-harm?
I recall that, yes.
And would you agree with me that it
is normal behavior to stop talking with people if you think they are looking
for reasons to keep you on a particular custody status?
No, I wouldn't necessarily agree.
You wouldn't agree that if you
thought that your words were being used against you-- and anything you said
would be held against you-- that it wouldn't be normal for a person to say,
'Maybe, I'm going to limit my interaction'?
Relative to other detainees-- I would
Have you ever heard of learned
And what do you know about that,
Well, it's a [missed word]
conditioning where a person has difficulty self-advocating. There certain [missed word] that
Thank you, doctor.
Nothing, your Honor.
Alright, Dr. Russel this is Col.
Lind. I am the military judge. I have a few questions for you. Can you hear me?
What is your understanding of POI
Well-- I can't recall the specifics
at this point-- the actual or the Brig policy for what was-- took place. I can't recall-- I can remember the
I guess-- I am a little confused on
the recommendation on the 15th of continuing-- on the 6th and the 15th-- you
recommend continuing with POI status.
At that point, I believe you
testified that you were aware that Pfc. Manning underwear was being taken away
from him at night? If he is a low
risk of self-harm or violence, why would you recommend that continue?
For that week the behavior changed--
so, when you looked at the difficult behavior that the Brig was observing or,
you know, was noted-- the Brig commander said that she had, you know, special
concerns that-- for that week-- because his behavior just seemed extreme from
what she had observed in the past. So, I think that what [missed a few words] Pfc. Manning. It was just that week.
So, when the Brig-- when CW2 Barnes--
the Brig commander was talking about behavior changes-- how did she describe
his behavior before this change?
Not talkative. Very little interaction with the Brig
staff. Not doing outdoor rec--
things that were afforded.
She also-- I remember her comparing
it relative to what she normally sees in the typical Brig detainee. And, how she felt that this was a little
more extreme then she had experienced in the past. The impression--
Keep-- No, Go ahead. Finish answering and then I will ask my
The impression I got was what we saw
was-- first of all, what I saw in interviewed Pfc. Manning was someone who did
not seem maladjusted.
He seemed to-- His mood seemed
fine. It really struck me-- how his
mood-- and I understand this is just according to the Brig commander-- was such
a stark difference between the two.
It was difficult to figure out his motivation. It was clear-- It was clear when-- I
would speak with him first and he did not seem depressed.
I would not be worried about him, but
people often can act differently in different situations and while he was with
me, he seemed to be a very low risk. But I wasn't witness to-- which I couldn't witnesses-- was how did
interact when he wasn't being interviewed-- so, because of the stark difference
in the description that the Brig staff would convey to me.
So, I remember I-- I kind of
understood why the Brig commander would have some concerns-- if-- for during
the week she would see a very solemn withdrawn person-- I can understand her
concern if when we would interview a the person-- or, I'm sorry, 'the person'--
when we interviewed Pfc. Manning he wouldn't seem depressed.
And, I didn't want to go into his
motivation- you know, whether it was just with him or whatnot-- only because I
only did see him once per week.
But all of those consideration, you
know, to that be the reason behind it-- but, given that I only saw him twice, I
didn't feel comfortable [stating?] that.
In your-- have you worked in
correction facilities other than this experience?
Yes, Ma'am. At Guantanamo Bay currently.
Oh, okay. I asked you earlier if you were familiar
with prevention of injury status as a status-- or suicide risk for that
matter? Know-- I guess-- if you
worked in those kinds of setting have you seen this before?
Prevention of injury, Ma'am?
Is that-- in your experience is that
like a status that one would go-- would be on for a long time? A short time? Does it vary person by person?
A person could be on that for a
while--depending on, you know, what time of reassurance the detention facility
or Brig will-- again whether it's verbal or behavior or some indication that--
that this person is safe. It's
usually-- a lot of it has to do with his sociability to the person engaging and
just simple conversations.
And, as I remember the concern with Pfc.
Manning wasn't conversing in a most simple conversation that would in no way would
be part of this case-- just simple daily courtesy-- that they felt that he
just-- he wouldn't engage that way.
When you are describing the fact that
Pfc. Manning wouldn't engage-- and, I guess this is where my confusion is lying
a bit-- you testified earlier that you were recommending-- notwithstanding your
own interviews-- continued POI, because of a sudden change in behavior-- and, I
guess I am going back to my original question-- did the Brig commander describe
what Pfc. Manning was like before his behavior was changed?
[Missed a few words.] So, his typical
behavior was not conversing, and not doing [missed words]-- but that week, I
remember, specifically she said that his eye contact was very poor. It-- he would stare at the ground if
someone was speaking to him-- he would use very few words in reply. She also reported-- she said that it was
just more-- more obsessive than what she experienced with him.
Why did she believe-- did she tell
you why she believed that Pfc. Manning would be in danger from the other
You know, it's-- it's-- I remember
she specifically [missed word] concerned a conversations of whether it would be
safe with other-- other inmates [missed a few words] with intent to harm
I don't think there is ever a
conversation when he would ever be any threat to another inmate. That he himself would harm another
Did she say why she thought other
inmates would harm him?
I can't remember specifically, Ma'am.
Any follow up based on that?
Alright, Dr. Russel you are
excused. Thank you for your
Thank you, Ma'am.
Alright, do we have any other
witnesses for today?
Yes, your Honor. United States calls GM1 [Navy Gunners
Raise your right hand. Do you swear and affirm that the
statements that you are about to make are the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
GM1 Terrance Webb
And, for the record you are [missed
statement]... GM1 Webb what is your full name?
Terrance [missed middle name] Webb,
And, how long have you served in the
I served in the Navy nine months-- or
nine years, eleven months.
I just want to ask you for clarifications--
in the Navy, GM1-- what is that equivalent in grade?
It's an E-6.
And GM2 is an equivalent of?
And, your rank when you were at
Okay. Thank you. And how much experience do you have in
In corrections-- Quantico was my
first-- like the first Brig that I ever worked at.
Did you receive any schooling?
Yes. I went the same correctional program
we've had all the Marines and all [missed a few words] when they go to-- when
they go work in Brigs.
And, when did you report to Quantico?
I reported to Quantico in July-- I
believe July 7, 2010.
About how long were you there?
I was there from July 7, 2010 until
January 27, 2012.
And, what were your duty titles?
While I was working at Quantico Brig,
I was a watch supervisor, and then I was a duty brig supervisor.
And, I want to go over that a little
bit. What is a watch supervisor do?
A watch supervisor is overall in
charge of the personnel on the section-- they set the watch posts and ensure
that and ensure that the personnel in the section are good to go while they are
standing their posts.
And what does a duty brig supervisor
A duty brig supervisor is overall in
charge of the Brig in the absence of the commanding office.
They also-- they-- they carry out or
ensure that the plan of the day is carried out-- and they also oversee-- they
oversee the watch supervisor and make sure that all the posts are being stood
So, is the DBS maintaining the day to
day operations of the Brig?
And, how much interactions did you
have with prisoners at that point at Quantico Brig as DBS?
As a DBS I had to speak with all the
prisoners at least twice a day.
And, why would you speak with them?
Just to verify-- or to ask them if
everything is okay-- of they had any issues or any complaint.
And, did you conduct skin checks?
I did not. But I conducted counts-- well, you now,
when we had to do counts, but I did not-- I did not personally conduct them--
conduct skin checks.
As DBS are you responsible for
ensuring skin checks were conducted?
And, would you please explain what a
skin check is?
What a skin check is-- is at night,
once all the inmates are asleep the guards that are actually standing post
inside special quarters-- they go by and they verify that they can see skin
from each and every inmate.
So, if they walk by some and the
inmate has a blanket over their head-- it is their job to wake the inmate up
and let them know that they need to remove that blanket from their head, so
they can see [missed word].
And, why do you do this?
Because, to ensure that the inmate is
still breathing and the inmate is still there.
And, how often were these skin
If they were a regular MDI [medium in
custody] inmate it was say-- every
thirty minutes. But if it was a
suicide risk it was-- actually I am not a hundred per cent sure if it was
thirty minutes or fifteen, but I know suicide was every five minutes.
But every prisoner was checked for
skin at some point throughout the night-- regardless of classification
Now, I want to talk a little but
about 18 January 2011. Do you
remember that day?
What was your duty title that day?
I was the duty brig supervisor for
that day, sir.
And, were you a part of escorting
Pfc. Manning to recreation call?
And, what was your role on that?
I was duty brig supervisor-- I was
just overseeing the whole operation.
And who were you overseeing?
And, what guards were there?
It was Lance Corporal Tankersly and
Lance Corporal Cline.
Was it about the normal number of
guards to move Pfc. Manning?
I'm sorry-- for rec call that was the
And, so-- how did you start moving
Pfc. Manning that morning?
We arrived at his cell. We advised
him that he was going to rec call. We sound-- we sound, 'Stand by for lockdown.' We opened-- we open the cell, and we
applied-- applied his restraints.
Was that normal procedure?
And was that procedure based on his
And that was the procedure-- was that
the procedure executed everyday?
Who applied the restraints?
I do not remember, sir.
Do you remember anything unusual
Well once his restraints were
applied-- Lance Corporal-- Lance Corporal Tankersly-- after everything was
completed, he was outside his cell to face [missed word] and Lance Corporal
Tankersly told him to face towards the door to alpha row, and he faced that
way, but he did not-- he did not respond.
When you say he did not respond, who
did not respond?
Alright. Please continue.
He did not respond-- he didn't
respond to the command. So, at that
time Lance Corporal Tankersly corrected him.
How many time were the commands
The command was given once, sir.
And, were any other commands given by
any other person?
Yes, sir. Anytime I give commands, sir.
Did any other guards give a command
to Pfc. Manning to face a direction?
So, only Lance Corporal Tankersly
gave the command?
And, what happened after the command
There was no response, sir.
And, what happened after there was no
Lance Corporal Tankersly corrected
Pfc. Manning, and told him that anytime he is spoken to by a guard inside--
anytime he is spoke to he needs to respond with 'Aye Aye,' 'Yes or No' or if it
is an officer, 'Sir or Ma'am.'
And, how did Pfc. Manning respond?
He did not respond. I am not exactly sure how he responded
at that time.
So, after the correction, what
Then-- I don't remember at this
time-- is there a, like, incident report-- that I?
Did you proceed to rec call?
Yes, after everything was completed
we did proceed to rec call.
And, about how many people were at
recreation call when you arrived?
When we arrived at recreation call--
at recreation call it was myself-- myself and Lance Corporal Tankersly, Lance
Corporal Cline, and--
So, what happened when you
arrived? Where was recreation call
Recreation call was dorm one.
And, is that the normal place for it?
Yep. That's the normal place for--
for indoor rec call. Yes, sir.
And, so what happened after you
When we arrived, we sounded, 'Secure
lock down.' We placed-- we moved
Manning into the middle-- into the middle of dorm one. But, prior to removing his restraints,
we instructed him not to move.
And, how did he respond to that?
At first, he didn't respond. But, the command was said again and he
then he said that he was not moving.
And, how did Pfc. Manning appear at
There really didn't seem to be
anything out of the ordinary, sir.
Okay, so what happened next?
We proceeded to remove his
restraints. Once we completed
removing his restraints, he fell on his buttocks. And, at that time--
Well, why did he fall?
We were not sure, sir.
What did you say to him?
We-- well-- well, when he fell on his
buttock, we reached out to try to catch him.
And how would you describe his
demeanor at that time?
At that time-- I really don't
remember exactly-- exactly how he looked. I just-- he fell on his buttocks and popped up-- stood up really quick
and kind of went over into one of
the-- sort of behind the machines.
And, what did he do when he was
behind the machines?
He was apologizing to myself and
Lance Corporal Tankersly.
How did he sound?
He just kept saying, 'I'm sorry,
GM2. I am sorry, Lance Corporal.'
And, what was his volume like?
It wasn't-- it wasn't loud. It was just kind of like-- kind of like
as I am speaking to you.
And, so what happened next after he
ran behind the machine?
I called the security chief to come
to dorm one--we grabbed a chair and instructed Manning to sit down.
And, who is the security chief?
It's Gunnery Sergeant Fuller.
And, so after Gunnery Sergeant Fuller
shows up, what happens next?
He sat-- he sat Manning down and
spoke with him, and asked him if there was anything he could do to-- anything
he could do to help him.
He stated that there-- there wasn't
anything-- there wasn't anything-- or there wasn't anything that he could think
of for us to do to help him, and after that he was asked if he wanted to
complete his rec call. He said that
he did, so he completed his rec call.
And, how long did Pfc. Manning's
recreation call last?
They were normally an hour.
And, did it go the full time?
I want to ask [missed a few
words]. Do you remember what
Later in that day-- after recreation
A little bit, sir.
And would you please describe what
After the rec call-- after we had him
back into his cell-- is that [missed a few words], sir?
I remember that Chief Warrant Officer
Averhart came in to speak with Manning, and I was actually inside the guard
shack while they were talking.
I was just there to-- incase the-- in
case the OIC needed-- needed anything from me. Normally, I was-- I was had to try to
keep myself around.
Was it normal for you to be in the
No, just anytime when-- anytime when
he is in there-- it is something the OIC was in there talking to inmates, I
would go in-- I would just kind of
view the general area in case he had any questions for me. Just to make myself accessible.
That was your normal procedure?
Okay. And so, what happened next?
I remember hearing Pfc. Manning
raising his voice-- shouting. I
looked up and I kind of saw his hands flailing, and at that time Chief Warrant
Officer Averhart came in and instructed me-- something to the effect of
'Special move. Suicide.' And at that time, I called a code blue.
So, when-- after the 'Special move. Suicide' what did you do next?
I got on my radio and called a code
blue, and instructed my SORT [Special Operations Response Team] team suit up.
And, by SORT team you mean extraction
And, what was the status of the
You mean after--?
After you-- after you-- after you
Oh, they were just on standby. They were actually outside of special
quarters standing by--
What is-- what is Pfc. Manning doing
during this time?
During this time-- I was actually-- I
was outside of special quarters ensuring that my SORT team-- you know that the
lock was open for them to-- to get all their equipment. So, I am not exactly sure what was
Did the SORT team ever go into Pfc.
Because the SORT team was actually
stood down by either Chief Warrant Officer Averhart or Master Sergeant Papakie.
And, do you know why?
I-- I believe after that he became
compliant, so we-- well we felt that we did not need to go in to gain
I want to talk a little bit about the
morning routine with Pfc. Manning. After his clothing was taken-- after his [missed] was already taken--
what time did morning start for Pfc. Manning at the Brig?
Reveille started at zero five, sir.
And, what would happen after reveille?
After reveille, we give them time to
wake up, and then we sound-- we sound morning count.
And, what time would count be
That was usually possibly ten minutes
And, what is count?
Count is-- we go through-- three
times a day to count all the prisoners to ensure that we have all the prisoners
inside-- inside the facility we know [missed a few words].
Is count always at exactly the same
Generally it is, but it all depends
on the [missed word] tempo of the facility. So, there are some deviation.
Does count vary a little to make it
harder for [missed word]?
And, why is that?
Just to ensure that there isn't a
So, would there be a standby for
And, when would that usually be?
Standby for count was normally
sounded approximately five minutes before count.
Okay. And so, we have reveille. We have count. When does Pfc. Manning usually get his
On-- on the light duty days, my section
normally they would actually put his clothes in the feed tray to his cell prior
So, what time prior to reveille?
I-- I'm not exactly sure. I decide-- I know-- maybe five minutes
prior to reveille.
And, that was a routine while you
And, while you were DBS was Pfc.
Manning ever required to stand naked at attention or parade rest?
And, when Pfc. Manning was given his
clothing in the morning, what was he suppose to do with it?
He was suppose to put his clothing
on-- or, he was suppose to remove his-- his suicide smock and apply-- put his
And, when was he suppose to do that?
Directly at-- as soon as reveille
sounded-- as soon as reveille sounded.
So, before count?
And, did you ever communicate this to
I never had to. I never had any issue with any-- him not
in his clothing for count.
No, further questions.
GM1 Webb, I just have a few questions
for you, okay?
Alright. Did you interact with Manning, when you
were the DBS?
Yes, I did.
And, about how often?
Anytime I had duty-- at a minimum it
was twice a day, sir.
In your interactions with him, was he
always respectful to you?
Yes, sir. Except for the one incident that we
spoke about-- other than that he was respectful.
Was he disrespectful to you on that?
Okay, so even including that
incident, he was always respectful to you?
And he would immediately stand at
parade rest when he spoke to you?
Can you give me an example of maybe
your typical conversation with Pfc. Manning?
I would come by after taking a
shift-- or anytime I would come in-- I would say-- I would greet them with the
greet of the day, 'Good morning' or 'afternoon.' I'd say 'Good
morning, detainee Manning. How are
you doing today?'
He would tell me he was fine-- all
the time-- you know, he would tell me he was fine. I would ask him if he had any issues or
He would tell me he had no issue or
complaints. Sometime I would ask
him, you know, 'Is-- are, you know-- are the showers fine? How's chow?' You know, 'Is chow-- are you getting
enough chow?'-- or anything like that.
He would tell me everything is fine. And,
[missed word] good to go, 'Detainee, Manning, carry on.' And I would go on to the next--
And, comparing Pfc. Manning's
responses to you with the next detainee's responses-- were they roughly about
They would vary on any given day--
but for the most part, yes.
Okay. From your observation, Pfc. Manning's
behaviors seemed normal?
For the most part-- other than what I
would hear-- anytime, when-- I-- anything that I physically saw was generally
Alright, so everything that you saw
with your eyes-- he looked normal?
And, he would engage in light conversation
with you when you talked to him?
You never saw him exhibit any strange
behavior when you were the DBS?
When I was inside special quarters,
And, putting aside the 18 January
incident-- his behavior for the entire time that you were there was pretty much
the same while he was at Quantico?
So, aside from the 18 January
incident, you never noticed a decline in his communication with you when you
talked to him or [missed a few words]?
With me, no.
And to your recollection there was
rarely ever a detainee on the opposite side of Pfc. Manning?
The only exception might be if they
were sharing TV call?
That is correct. There's a-- there's-- I know there has
been one, but it's-- [missed statement].
And, because sometimes there was a--
you had another detainee next to him-- like I said for TV call-- they'd be
watching television and not necessarily conversing with each other, right?
That's not correct-- but when I--
they'd have conversations before. I've actually seen reports from another-- another detainee requesting
not to speak with detainee Manning.
Okay. So, one time you received a request from
another detainee not to speak with Pfc. Manning?
From your observation when-- when you
were seeing him on 18 January-- it was you and Lance Corporal Tankersly, and
Lance Corporal bringing him out for his recreation call?
And, Lance Corporal Tankersly
escorted Manning out of the cell, once the restraints were placed on him?
And, told him to face alpha row--
[missed a few words]?
And, Pfc. Manning complied with that?
What he failed to do was say, 'Yes'
or 'Aye Aye, Lance Corporal'?
And, Lance Corporal Tankersly
immediately corrected him?
And, at that point, Lance Corporal
Tankersly said, 'Hey, when you get an instruction, you need to say, 'Aye Aye,
And from your observation, Pfc.
Manning looked back at him-- didn't really say anything and you couldn't tell
if he was confused or not?
And, he didn't immediately reply to
him, and then Lance Corporal Tankersly again repeated, 'Look, when someone
gives you a direction, you need to say, 'Aye Aye' and--
It was actually that, that was said
by me. I instructed him to-- that
anytime he was spoke to by-- by staff inside the facility, he needs to address
them with a proper title.
We'll get to that in a moment-- so,
you don't recall Lance Corporal Tankersly telling him again, 'Look when,' when
he didn't get an immediately reply--
I-- I-- not to my recollection, no. I
Do you recall where Lance Corporal Tankersly
eventually said, 'Let's go'-- to Pfc. Manning?
I-- I remember, 'Let's go' being
said. I don't remember who exactly
said that, sir.
And, you recall after him saying,
'Let's go,' that is where Pfc.
Manning said, 'No, wait'?
And, then that is when you went to
him and you said to him, 'Listen Pfc. Manning. When somebody gives you direction and
guidance, you need to respond doing it, and then you also need to say their
names and ranks'?
Is that what you remember now?
Yes, I remember saying that.
Okay, so at that point when you said
that, Pfc. manning replied to you, 'Yes, GM2 Webb'?
So, then you go down to the
recreation room and obviously before you are moving him lock down is commenced
i the facility, right?
So, that means that the entire
facility is locked down, and there are no other detainees out of their cells?
And, that is because Pfc. Manning was
considered MAX and POI and that was the requirements for the status?
Because he was a maximum custody
level the requirements were maximum custody.
Okay. So, then you get him to the recreation
room, and when you are in there, Pfc. Manning is still in full restraints,
And, so when you are holding on to
him, it's because he is in full restraints?
You don't want him to fall down?
And, at that point your memory is
that Lance Corporal Tankersly says, 'Stop moving'?
No. Prior to removing his-- prior to
removing his restraints he told him not to move.
Okay, I'm not doing a timing thing,
but at some point when he is standing there in full restraints he's told to
He doesn't-- he doesn't to tell him
to stop moving. He tells him,
Okay. Alright-- so, tells him, 'Don't
And, then Pfc. Manning replies back
to him, 'I'm not moving'?
And, at that point Lance Corporal
Tankersly again, cause he just says, 'I'm not moving,' corrects him and says,
'Look you need to respond with,' you know, 'Aye Aye, Lance Corporal'?
[Missed a few words], yes.
And, you recall at that point, Lance
Corporal Tankersly saying, or somebody else saying, 'Are we gonna have a
problem? Don't you understand what
the directive is?'
I do not. I do not recall that, sir.
You don't recall that?
I don't recall it being said. I am not sure.
Okay. So, the restraints are taken from Pfc.
Manning an at that point, then he falls back on his buttocks, correct?
And, I know from what we talked
about-- you reached out and tried to grab him?
And, so did Lance Corporal Tankersly?
But neither one of you could get to
him quickly enough, to avoid him falling down?
And, when you said he fell down on
his buttock-- if I am standing here and I decided to fall down-- that-- I can
first bend my knees in order to kind of brace the fall-- is that what Pfc.
So he fell down?
So, there wasn't other-- from your
observation then-- did it look like he passed out?
What did it-- did it look like he
just lost control of his legs perhaps?
Well, when he fell down-- his-- his--
he fell on his legs [missed word] of bent at the waist to a seated position?
Okay, so-- so not bending the knees
but bending at the waist?
Okay So, when he falls down-- and
when he falls down and you don't get to him, then from your memory, does he--
does he say anything at that point?
Not at that point, no.
You don't recall him saying something
like, 'No wait' or 'Stop [missed word]'?
I don't recall that-- just-- from my
memory , I remembered him immediately jumping right back up and then running to
the-- running behind the machines.
Okay. So, he get's behind one of the machines
and you said he-- I think you told me he covered his face at that point?
And, and he started to make a sound?
He was-- he was apologizing to myself
and Lance Corporal Tankersly.
And, I know-- and you testified that
he said that-- did he make any sounds, though, at that point?
That-- he was just saying that he'd
[missed a few words]-- like, that I-- like, his [missed a few words] sounds
coming out. I don't know what he
was saying. It was kind of like he
was mumbling something.
And, can you-- can you mimic what you
recall him doing when he made those sounds?
Well, once he, you know-- he was
apologizing and then he had his hands over his face and then he just kind of
like-- like his lips were moving like he was mumbling something. i don't know-- I am not sure what he was
Alright-- so you-- you-- witness put
his hands over his face. Do you
recall him making any sounds?
It was just-- just mumbling.
It was mumbling, so you couldn't make
I couldn't make out what was being
And what did the mumbling sound like?
It sounded to me like-- possibly
Okay. Did you see any tears on Pfc. Manning's
And you said that he immediately
apologized to you and to Lance Corporal?
And at that point my understanding
Gunnery Sergeant Fuller came in to the room? Is that correct?
At some point?
At some point he came in, yes.
And that was because of what
And, so Lance Corporal Cline -- I think-- then
instructed Pfc. Manning to take a seat in a chair?
And then Gunnery Sergeant Fuller
comes up and he asks Pfc. Manning what happened?
And, Pfc. Manning tells him that he
felt like he was being treated differently on this day?
And he said he felt like the guards
were anxious and that making him anxious?
And, he didn't understand why the
guards were anxious?
And, afterwards, you-- was it you or
was it Gunnery Sergeant Fuller decided to replace Tankersly and Cline?
I believe it was my call to-- to
replace Lance Corporal Tankersly and Lance Corporal Cline.
Okay, so. You made the call to replace Lance
Corporal Tankersly and Cline with two other guards?
And that I believe was because you
believe that would diffuse the situation in your mind?
Because whatever the situation was--
it seemed to be coming between Pfc. Manning and Tankersly and Cline-- as
opposed to Pfc. Manning and you, sir?
Alright, so then Pfc. Manning wants
to-- and the new guards replaced actually while he is still at rec call,
And so, then while you are at rec
call, he's just doing his rec call as normal?
No other issues?
And, then when the rec call is done,
you put the restraints back on him?
And, you escort-- and before I guess
you move him from the rec area, you lock down the facility again?
And then you move him back to his
And then you remove the restraints?
And, I imagine that whole process
there, for you, would be several guidances given to Pfc. Manning or some
other-- one of the other guards would give him like, 'Turn this way. Face this way'?
And, was he replying as he is suppose
So, you had no other issues getting
him back into his cell?
And then as the DBS, was it normal
for you to be in the observation booth? Is that where you normally stay?
I had my office-- that was closer to
[missed two words].
Okay. So, that would be a place where
you would just come as doing whatever [missed a word] as the DBS?
So, later that day then-- Chief
Averhart comes to see Pfc. Manning?
Do you recall how much longer after
the rec call, that this was?
I'm not sure. Normally, if I was in my office, I would
have seen Chief Averhart-- Chief Warrant Officer Averhart going to special
quarters, I would fall behind him-- just to, you know, place myself inside--
inside special quarters to remain-- you know, to be accessible.
I am not sure what time frame-- or
how much longer after that it was.
Okay, so from today-- I know it's
been a long time. But, today-- your
memory you can't really place that if it was a half hour later-- an hour
later-- two hours later?
Okay. But there-- there came a time where
Chief Averhart came in to speak to Pfc. Manning?
And, you weren't there present for
You were instead within the
And, you would hear things probably
if the voice level was high enough?
But it wasn't like you and I talking
right now-- where you can hear it-- word for word what was said? So, you don't know what Chief Averhart
said to Pfc. Manning?
And, you don't know what Pfc. Manning
said back to Chief Averhart?
But, there came a time when a voice
was raised, and that caused you to-- kind of I guess divert your attention to
what was going on outside of the booth?
And, when you looked up you saw Pfc.
Manning-- you said his arms were flailing-- flailing around I believe?
And, was he striking himself at that
I am not sure if he was striking
himself. His hands were up kind of
by his face-- kind of like this. I, you know,-- I'm not sure exactly what he
was doing. I just kind of looked
up, and I saw what he was doing and at that time Chief Warrant Officer Averhart
walked into-- walked into special quarters.
We'll get to that, so-- I need to describe what you just
did. So, you put your hand up next to your head. From what you saw-- apparently you were
going hands back and forth basically from his shoulder to the front of your
Well, I am not exactly sure what--
what he was doing with his hands just--
How about from just what you recall
though-- when you looked up what do you recall that you--
I just remember his hands around his
head, you know-- I don't know if they were going back and forth or side to
side, you know-- I am not exactly sure the motions-- just his hands were moving
around his head.
Okay, so his hands roughly up at his
Alright. So, then at that point Chief Averhart
comes into the observation room?
[Missed, but affirmative.]
Okay, and he says, 'Special
move. Suicide risk' or 'SR'?
And, so that told you that obviously
Pfc. Manning was going to move-- the 'special move' part-- was that the 'code
No. Inside the unit-- we do special
moves all the time-- just his actions cause me to call the code blue.
Now, did you call the code blue--
-- or did Chief Averhart say, 'Code blue'?
He didn't say code red, or code black
or code blue?
And, why did you call code blue?
Because of his actions.
Just speaking-- when he was speaking
with the OIC-- the raised voice and the when Chief Warrant Officer Averhart
came in-- in-- in my mind that lead me to believe that something was definitely
out of the ordinary and I needed to have a SORT team on standby.
Okay, so when you called-- and that's
your memory that you are the one who called the code blue. And, you called the code blue. And, how do you do that? Is that like over the mic, 'Code blue'?
It's over the-- it's over the two way
radios that we have.
Okay, so you say, 'Code blue.' And,
was Chief Averhart present when you called the code blue?
And, he didn't stand you down, right
immediately at that point?
So, obviously then he must of
concurred with your code blue?
And, when you called code blue-- what
does that do? What domino effect
Once I called the code blue-- master
patrol they call over the intercom system-- they sound code blue over the
intercom system-- and let them know-- the staff know what is going on at that
time-- the SORT team or the extra guards that I have on my-- on my shift that
were-- they are told before the shift who is on the SORT team.
They know to go to the-- to the
locker and standby for me to unlock the door-- standby for me to get it
open. So, they suit up in the SORT
Alright, so you are in the
observation room. You call the code
blue. And then you go to-- what
room? To the locker?
Well, once I sound the code blue--
it's a-- there's another person in security-- I forget which-- who it was-- but
they actually-- they-- I am trying to remember-- they had-- they basically--
it's like a contraband control. They have-- they have the key to the SORT locker. So, once I call that, they go to the locker, and then I go out to the-- I go
out to where the SORT team is suited up to ensure that-- that everybody--
everybody is actually getting suited up.
And, where is this locker at?
It's on the-- it's on the outer--
it's on the outside of-- outside of the [missed word, sounds like 'silent
Okay, so the [missed word, sounds
like 'silent court']-- that's the door that-- the hard metal door?
No, there is a-- there's a-- there's
a gate-- right when you walk through the front-- through the front hatch for--
to go up to the Brig-- there's that gate-- it's two gates-- where one closes
when you walk in, then the other one-- well if you go around the corner prior
to either-- going through the side [missed word, sounds like 'silent court']. Right to that right, then there is a
locker room there where all the SORT gear is kept.
And, help me with-- [missed word,
sounds like 'silent court']-- what-- what is that?
It's basically-- it's a-- it's a
traffic control gate sort of-- I mean it's to control who enters and exits the
Brig-- so you don't just have one door open you walking in and out.
Alright, so once you walk in-- that
door opens, you walk in the door closes and then the other door will open once
this door is closed?
Okay. So, then you leave in order to get-- essentially
at the locker-- to make sure everybody is doing their job at that point, right?
And then what is involved-- it's a
code blue then that equates to a forced extraction?
Not necessarily sir. They were just suiting up to be on
No, I'm not saying that that's what
that is-- then, everyone is getting suited up to do a forced extraction?
Okay. What's involved then-- how many people
are at this locker room area?
There is five people at the locker
And, what do they do at that point?
They're-- everybody is suited up--
suited up in their gear.
And, what kind of gear are they
getting into at that point?
They-- they have-- there's a helmet
with a face shield. There's a
chest-- there's a chest pads. Arm
pads. It's mainly protection gear
for people on the SORT team. So, to
protect themselves from the inmate if he [missed two words].
Okay. And, then you said there were five
people. Do-- do each of the five people
have a different job?
Yes. Each person-- each person has-- has to
do a different job. I am not sure
the numbers, but the one person-- their jobs is to control the head to ensure
that their head, you know-- isn't bashed around anywhere. Another person, their job is to control
one arm. Another person the other
arm. And, the same to control the
And, then their is two people that
actually-- they hold the restraints. So, everybody that goes on the SORT team they have a specific job to
My understanding from our conversations at
that point-- when everyone gets suited up, and they are ready to do their job--
and you get [missed word] up, and you break out the video camera and you go
from each person-- and you have that person indicate what their job is and what
they are going to do?
And, so that is what you did in this
Yeah-- you suited up, right?
And, did you ever get to the point
were you were doing the camera thing?
I don't believe [missed word] did,
because after-- after I saw the SORT team suited up-- I was back inside special
Okay. So, you get the-- how much time goes by
after the code blue and everyone is suited up and ready to go?
Approximately-- approximately five
Okay. And, then you come in and what happens
when you come back?
When I walk back in-- we were-- I
believe we will still trying to get compliance from-- from detainee Manning.
And, compliance meaning, what?
We were-- I believe they requested to
get his gear from him. I'm not one
hundred percent sure what was happening at that time-- or [missed two words]
Now, for the cell extraction part of
it-- had you ever done a cell extraction before?
Well, we've done some training for
school and also training-- Brig training-- on out training days we-- we still
go through and practice forced cell extractions.
But, in for real-- have you ever done
a forced cell extraction?
When detainee Manning-- or Pfc.
Manning-- the type of detainee that you would envision the need to do a cell
Any-- any-- any a-- any type of
detainee that I allowed a cell extraction performed on--
Based upon what you knew about
him? Did you envision him the type
of detainee that you would have to do a cell extraction?
I mean that's not really something
that I can answer because at any moment, a detainee demeanor could changed to
where you have to perform a forced cell extraction.
But, from your memory of him, he was
always compliant? Correct?
He was always respectful to you?
And, he always, you know-- and he was
No [missed word] danger?
Well I was on duty, that is correct.
And, so from your observation of him,
he would not be the type of person you would normally think, 'I need to extract
I would still say, I can't make that judgment,
because at a moments notice I can-- I would have to do a forced cell extraction
on any-- on any inmate.
Okay. So, then at some point when you come
back in-- you don't have to do the cell extraction, right?
If you are basically told to stand
And, at this point then, Pfc. Manning
is-- is apparently compliant, and you are not going in for the cell extraction?
Now, Pfc. Manning-- and was-- do you
see him stripped down at that point to just his underwear?
I'm not-- I'm not so sure. I can't remember.
So, you don't remember seeing him
standing, just in his underwear?
I believe that if he did-- if his
status changed to suicide risk he would have been in his underwear.
And, I know it's a long time ago--
so, from your memory do you recall ever seeing-- standing by and seeing Master
Sergeant Papakie and Gunnery Sergeant Blenis talking to Pfc. Manning-- just in
I'm not-- I'm not sure. I don't remember what he was wearing,
but I do remember them talking to him.
And, do you remember him standing
Alright. So-- there was also a video camera, do
you remember the video camera?
And, why was the video camera was
The video camera was to-- part of the
forced-- from when we were suited up for the forced cell extraction.
So, why was the video camera being
used at that point?
I do not know.
From your position, you would agree
with me that he was-- common understanding that-- that it was Quantico and
higher that people were paying attention to what was going on with Pfc.
People were paying attention to what
was going on inside the facility.
And, Pfc. Manning?
[Missed word], yes.
And, you knew this, because of the
protests that were happening outside of the gates?
You knew this because of the phone
calls that were coming to the Brig?
And, because of all the mail, and the
media inquiries that you were getting?
And, you said that there were
numerous phone calls to the Brig especially at night?
And, you specifically informed me
that every time there was a protest you were aware of that?
And, you were aware of that because
they put out information that there was a protest happening and what, you
know-- what gates would be closed-- what alternative roads you have to take,
In fact there was one time where
someone called and ordered apparently hundreds of dollars of pizza for the
That was something that I heard
about-- it didn't happen specifically to me.
But, you heard about that?
And, you were aware of the fact that
at least one pizza place that stopped delivering to the Brig after that
And, no one thought that was funny, I
imagine? [Missed question.]
And, you were aware that sometimes
your superiors would come to the Brig to walk through to check on Pfc. Manning?
I don't believe they were there to
check on Pfc. Manning-- do you mean superiors as in our chain of command?
Exactly. That they-- you know, Col. Oltman walk
through just to see what was going on with Pfc. Manning?
There was a lot-- there were a lot of
different time when they arrive-- they were superiors or higher ups that did
show up at the Brig. I am not
exactly sure if they were there for-- to see Pfc. Manning per se.
Well, I mean, they-- you were aware
of a lot of a lot of VIP people coming through just for the Brig?
Yes. They're not there-- VIP's that did come
through, they were not there to see Pfc. Manning.
As far as talk with him or anything,
Right. They didn't-- they didn't have any
contact with Pfc. Manning.
No, but they walked through the Brig
and took a look in his cell?
Thank you, GM1 Webb.
Alright GM Webb, I have a few
questions. When did the guard--
when did the guard duty supervisor-- is that what it's called?
Duty brig supervisor.
Duty brig supervisor, excuse me,
yes. From what period of time to
what period of time were you that?
[Missed word.] I don't remember which day I made the
duty brig supervisor for the Brig. But I was a-- I was the duty brig-- so, it's possibly two months after
I-- I arrived at the Brig-- until probably-- until my departure.
That would be about September of
And, so you left?
So, as the duty brig supervisor did
you do the count?
Did you do the count everyday?
There were duty brig supervisors for
each-- each duty section. So, I was the duty brig supervisor for my-- for my
Did you-- did you-- I don't even
think you'd remember this-- did you-- where you the duty brig between the 3rd
and 6th of March ?
I do not recollect [missed a few
Do you ever remember a time when Pfc.
Manning was standing naked in front of you at a count?
Not for me.
When did the guard shifts change?
It was-- we changed shift at zero eight.
How many shifts are there?
There is one shift per duty.
You mean one shift at zero eight to
zero-- to-- when did they stop?
To zero eight the following morning.
Oh, to zero eight-- so it's a 24
During March of 2011 how many guards
would be in the observation booth are at night-- like right before reveille?
That Ma'am would depend on the status
of the-- if you have a suicide risk then [missed a few words] some extra guard,
so it was always at least two Ma'am.
What about POI?
On POI-- on POI I believe it was only
two, Ma'am. On suicide-- on suicide
risk was the only time we added an extra guard.
In-- Before the 18th of January, had
you been involved in taking Pfc. Manning to rec call?
Yes Ma'am, at-- on my shift it was
either myself, and my watch supervisor-- that took him to every single one of
his rec calls.
In the prior occasions when-- well
first of all, let me make sure I understand the protocol-- so when you are
putting your restraints on and-- what orders are typically give?
When we apply the restraints?
And, when we remove the restraints,
we always instruct the inmate not to move while we are doing so.
Those are given every time-- every
time you do that?
And, what is the inmate suppose when
you give that order?
You are suppose to respond, 'Yes,' or
'No,' and the person's title.
Is there a difference between
responding, 'Yes,' or 'No,' or 'Aye'?
Are they suppose to respond, 'Aye'?
They can either respond 'Yes,' or
'No,' or 'Aye,' Ma'am.
Now, in your own words how would
the-- if the detainee is told, 'Detainee Jones don't move.' What exact words are suppose to come out
of detainee Jones' mouth?
They need to say, 'Aye Aye,'-- 'Aye,
GM1' or 'Yes, GM1.'
Are they required to add their name
like detainee Jones says, 'Aye' or detainee Jones--
Was there a protest that you were
aware of on or close to the 18th of January of 2011?
I do not remember the date.
Did you talk at all-- before going to
rec call did you remember-- did you
remember did you talk at all to Lance Corporals Tankersly or Cline?
Just inside the-- inside the downtime
They were actually-- they were
escorts throughout the day. So,
while we were in there-- just informing them that we were going to-- going to
do detainee Manning rec call.
They have any reaction to that?
You call it 'downtime shack'-- is
that what you said?
Well it's not actually the downtime
shack-- it's just a-- it's like the guard lounge.
Do you remember-- your memory or
discussion about protests?
If I remember your testimony, you
said that when you got to the rec call, after the-- well, before I get there--
when these instructions were given that Corporal Tankersly and Corporal Cline--
was there any difference in the tenor of their voice, when what had been
When he did not comply, Lance
Corporal Tankersly did speak-- did speak to detainee Manning sternly.
Which time-- I didn't [missed word] couple of time
did he-- ?
This is not initially when he-- when
he first walked in-- when he first told him to face alpha row-- and he didn't
respond [missed a few words] -- but he spoke with him sternly and informed him
to say, 'Aye Aye, Lance Corporal.'
Okay-- so I understand your testimony
that he did what the-- what Lance Corporal Tankersly wanted him to do-- he just
didn't him to respond? Is that-- ?
Okay. So, he said that sternly at that
point. So, what was Pfc. Manning's
reaction at that point?
Initially he didn't-- he didn't
really say anything-- he just kind of stared-- and, he, like, he just kind of
stared and kind of went [missed word].
And, is that when you corrected him
or you said-- ?
No. After that-- that was-- and actually
when he-- when he faced that way, I believe, Lance Corporal Tankersly said
again-- and then after that we-- I corrected him after we proceeded-- after we
started to proceed to rec call and detainee Manning [said, 'No, stop'?].
And, your correction was-- tell me
one more time?
I-- I instructed that he was a
detainee inside of the facility, and anytime he addressed my staff he needed to
address them with, 'Yes/No'-- 'Yes/No' their rank or 'Yes/No, sir/ma'am' or
What was his reaction to that?
He responded, 'Yes, GM2.'
In the room-- after Pfc. Manning fell
down and ran behind the machine-- how long was he there-- you testified his
arms were over his face?
No. It was a couple of seconds.
And, I believe you said-- who were--
who-- Lance Corporal Cline ordered
I-- I-- We grabbed a chair and I-- or I told
Lance Corporal Cline to get the chair, I'm assuming.
Did he comply immediately with that
Did he say, 'Yes, Lance Corporal,'
Well, what was his demeanor while he
was sitting in the chair?
I don't remember that.
You testified earlier that Chief
Averhart went to see Pfc. Manning later after rec call and you don't remember
the amount of time between rec call and when he went to see him.
Do you if remember rec call was in
morning or the afternoon-- or at night?
Yeah. The rec call was-- I believe it was late
Would the visit have been before the
zero eight-hundred guard shift changed?
Ma'am, I meant late morning as in
possibly maybe ten o'clock or earlier.
Did you talk to Chief Averhart before
he went to see Pfc. Manning? Did
you know-- did you know before he actually got up and left?
No, Ma'am. It wasn't uncommon-- it wasn't uncommon
for Chief Warrant Officer Averhart to go through to speak with all the inmates.
What was his demeanor when he was
walking to go see Pfc. Manning?
Nothing out of the ordinary, Ma'am.
Was he angry?
Did you hear his voice raised?
Have you seen other inmates-- I guess
raise their voice or get excited with Chief Averhart?
Not-- not with Chief Averhart, Ma'am.
So, in Brig's scenarios-- how big of
a-- I'll use the French word- faux
pas is that for a detainee?
It's extremely-- it's extremely big
deal to show disrespect to the commanding officer of the Brig.
Was Chief Averhart angry about--
angry after the disrespect was shown?
When he came in and instructed me for
the special move, he didn't seem angry-- it was just-- he seemed kind of-- he
seemed stern when he-- when he instructed me to do the special move.
If someone is disrespectful to the
commander of the Brig, does that normally trigger a suicide [missed word]?
Well it's-- it's never happened
before [missed word], so I--
The disrespect has never happened?
What typically happens when their are
disciplinary problems in the Brig?
All depending on the severity there
will be-- they would be placed on-- placed on administrative segregation pending an investigation status.
They would be-- their cell would be
moved either to-- I believe it's charlie row or delta row-- of they would be
moved to special quarters, depending on the severity, Ma'am. So, long as they aren't on disciplinary
before being moved.
And [missed a few words] be a special
move-- is that right?
I think I'm done. Is there any follow up based on that?
Nothing further your Honor.
GM1 Webb what's your current position
[Missed, but he asked for
clarification on the question.]
What are you doing now?
I work at the Naval Munitions Command
in Norfolk, Virginia.
And, what do you do?
We run the-- we run the armory for
the -- for the [missed a few word] for that [missed word].
And my understanding from our
conversation-- this is the first time you worked in corrections?
And, since leaving some of the
terminology and stuff has left you because you no longer using it?
The idea of responding with an 'Aye'
or a 'Yes', do you recall whether or not an 'Aye' would be a response-- a
correct response for an action that has been ordered, and 'Yes' meaning, 'I
understand'? Do you recall that at
I don't, no.
So, like someone is told to do
something, 'Aye Aye.' And, if they are asked if they understand, 'Yes'?
Does that make sense?
And, again using your name, like
'detainee Coombs'-- would I use my name in the third person if I am requesting
something, like 'detainee Coombs requests X'? You never heard that?
You were asked a question about
whether or not-- if you were the DBS you ever saw Pfc. Manning standing naked in
front of his cell. You answered,
As, the DBS if you were coming in for
count, and you looked over and you saw a detainee standing naked what would you
I immediately correct the
situation. I'd instruct them to get
And, if the detainee refused, what
Then I would secure count it would be
written-- a DR would be written for interfering-- for interfering with count--
and I would-- I would call on the radio to-- to have the rest of the-- to have
some other guards come in also.
So, you would-- so you at least as
the DBS would immediately correct the situation. You wouldn't be a-- while you were
taking count, you would keep on going?
If the detainee was naked and you
correct them, and said, 'Hey,' you know, 'get in clothes' and they started to get dressed-- would you document that
somehow that they were standing naked?
Yes, I would.
And, why would you do that?
To ensure that if it's-- if it's a
pattern that is forming then to have documentation that, that actually
And, I would imagine, it would also
be important because interfering with the count is a problem, correct?
And, also you expect detainees to
follow certain requirements immediately. That's the whole idea of responding with, 'I understand,' and rank,
And, when detainees are allowed to
follow the exact Brig rules that is where control within the Brig might start
to slip a little bit?
And, you don't let that happen,
That is right.
And, that is because you enforce it,
as soon as you see something is wrong?
There was another question on-- you
said the issue on the rec call happened around ten hundred [missed word]?
I am not sure the exact time, but I
do-- I remember being a little but later in the morning-- or later in the--
yeah, later in the morning.
Alright, so sometime before lunch?
I can't recall one hundred per cent--
exactly when it happened.
And, I'm not-- I'm not really trying
to pin you down on like a particular time but just from the best of your memory
it was sometime in the late morning? Is that right?
I do know that the incident report--
the time of the-- of the incident should have been written down there.
You know how long after the incident
you-- you filled out the incident report?
That would-- that would have been a
little bit later in-- later in the afternoon.
Handing the witness what has been
marked-- appellate exhibit 428. GM1
Webb do you recognize that?
And, what is that?
This is the incident report that I
wrote after the-- after the incident.
And, from your memory, how long after
the incident did you write up this report?
As, soon as everything calmed down
and the Brig was brought back to normal operations, everybody involved went to
write their incident reports.
Do you know if you wrote this
incident report before or after Chief Averhart went to see Pfc. Manning?
This was after.
So, this would have been even after
And, do you see the time of your incident
And, what time is it?
It's thirteen nineteen [13:19].
Alright so 13:19 would have been
the-- obviously that is after Chief Averhart going to see Pfc. Manning? Correct.
The 13:19 would have been the time of
No, I'm-- and-- I want to make sure I
understand. I thought what you said
was you would have written up this incident report after everything was done?
And, you thought that you wrote up this incident
report after Chief Averhart went to go see Pfc. Manning?
Correct. After-- after all of that-- after all
that happened, yes.
Okay, so. The whole incident with the code blue
and all that stuff happened before you wrote this?
Okay. So, that-- after that definitely she
said it happens some time in the morning?
And, then obviously whatever time the
rec call was-- Chief Averhart going to speak to Pfc. Manning must have been
shortly thereafter that?
Alright. Retrieving from the witness
Mr. Coombs, I don't want to interrupt
your flow-- just to make sure I understand. This time-- the 13:19 is this the time
that you wrote the report or is the time the incident happened?
That's the time the incident happens.
Okay. Is there a time in here when you wrote
I believe the time is at the
bottom. It should be the time
[missed a few words].
Alright. And, then-- I'm glad for the
clarification. Thank you for that.
Handing back the witness appellate exhibit 428. Why don't we do this-- why don't you
take a look at it and-- and look at that-- what time would you say you filled
out this report?
From looking at it-- I would say
Is when you actually filled the
That would have been the time that
the Corporals saw it.
Been a long time since I've been at
the Brig. I believe that this was
the time that the report was started-- and then this was the time that the
report was completed.
Okay. So, the report was started. And, you say this was the time-- you are
pointing to 13:19?
And, the time the report was
And, okay, and so. That would have been the time the
report-- what about the time of the incident-- is that captured anywhere in the
Yes. I am honestly not sure, because I also
see down here that I signed the report at 15:35 on that date. So, but I-- it is been a long time since
I have seen the incident report or done anything inside a Brig, sir.
No, I understand. Just look at it for a moment, and then I
know it's a little unnerving to be on the stand, but just look at it for a
moment-- and if you can say from this if you know the time that you think you
would have filled out this report. If it is still 15--
I believe that the report would have
been-- would have been filled out at 15:35, since that is the date and timed
that I signed it. I signed after--
after I filled out the report. And,
then the 13:19 would have been when the-- the time that the incident occurred.
Is that-- that is what you think
looking at the report?
Okay. Alright incident being the time that
this happened in the rec area?
So, from 13:19 to-- at the latest
15:35-- that is were everything would have had to happen between the rec and
Chief Averhart-- code blue and all that stuff? Because you-- Do you recall
filling this out after all that was done?
Okay. Retrieving appellate exhibit 428 from
the witness. Ma'am that is all the
questions I have.
And, nothing from the Government?
Alright. GM1 Webb you are permanently excused
physically would ask if you would leave a cell phone number with a Government
representative, so we can reach you if we need to talk to you for any further
information in these proceedings. Please don't discuss your testimony or knowledge of the case with anyone
other than the lawyers or the accused [missed a few words].
Thank you. Alright, any further order of march this
evening or should we call it a day
and reconvene tomorrow?
Ma'am if we could have a ten minute
recess or fifteen minute recess for comfort break and figure that out.
Alright. Just come on into my office for an [RCM]
802 and let me know before we go back on the record.
Court is in recess until [missed last
Please be seated. This Article 39(a) Session is called to
order. Let the record reflect all
parties present when the Court last recessed, are again present in Court.
Counsel and I met briefly for an RCM
802 conference, what that is-- is as I told you before is where I talk about
scheduling and logistics issues in the case. The Government has advised me that they
wished not to call anymore witnesses this evening and begin again tomorrow. Defense has concurred. We have also discussed the next
If you remember yesterday, I said it
was going to be Wednesday through Friday of next week-- which is 5 through 7 December.
Well, Ma'am. United States-- and I am sorry to do
this unplanned-- just comment-- is that for the discussion in a few minutes is
that-- would be to discuss the calendar tomorrow-- could we then finalize
whether we push to the next weekend or start next we. I know we had come to a resolution in your
office? But there might be other
Alright. Let me tell you what was discussed and
what I thought was resolved-- and apparently not resolved. We had talked about pushing the case
into the weekend, next week just because we have so many witnesses to go
through-- so it would be starting Wednesday the 5th as we had talked about--
potentially going through Sunday the 9th.
That is apparently not final
yet. I am bring it to your
attention, because we will definitely be going Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday
of next week.
Whether we will go through the
weekend or restart on Monday-- I think is still up in the air-- at issue. But we will have more finality on that
within the next couple of days-- certainly before we recess the Court for this
session. Is there anything else I
need to address on the record?
Court is in recess.
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