Witness | Pfc. Manning's Testimony, Article 13 hearing Nov. 29 and 30, 2012

US v. Pfc. Manning is being conducted in de facto secrecy. For more information on the lack of public and press access to United States v. Pfc. Manning, visit the Center for Constitutional Rights, which filed a petition requesting the Army Court of Criminal Appeals (ACCA) "to order the Judge to grant the public and press access to the government's motion papers, the court's own orders, and transcripts of proceedings, none of which have been made public to date."

This transcript of Pfc. Manning's testimony at his Article 13 motion hearing was taken at Fort Meade, Maryland on November 29th and 30th, 2012.

See Transcript of US v Pfc. Manning, Article 39(a), 11/29/12

[DEFENSE EXAMINATION OF PFC. MANNING ON NOVEMBER 29, 2012]

 

Defense (Coombs)

Pfc. Manning I know this is a little nerve racking. So what we are going to do, is we are going to ease into this, and just take a little bit of time.  Okay?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, I want to first start off by asking some questions about when you were detained in Iraq. Okay?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, Sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, do you recall the date that you were initially detained by [Army] CID?

Pfc. Manning

It was May 27 of 2010.

Defense (Coombs)

And, how did CID first approach you?

Pfc. Manning

CID first came to-- well I was first in the Supply-- I was in the Supply office at the Brigade annex, which was a separate building from Brigade headquarters at FOB Hammer in Iraq, and I was-- and then, I was escorted by the Supply NCOIC [Non Commissioned Officer in Charge] to an interview room.  It was a conference room that had been turned into an interview room.  And, I knew that--

Defense (Coombs)

When you walked in, what did you see-- when you walked into that?

Pfc. Manning

There was a table and two CID agents and a civilian agent that was unidentified.  I don't know what agency of anything. 

Defense (Coombs)

And, what happened after you were brought into the room with CID?

Pfc. Manning

They gave me my rights waiver form, which I did not-- I did not waive my right to an attorney.  They read through that and filled it out.

Defense (Coombs)

And, after electing not to waive your rights, then what happened?

Pfc. Manning

They left.  So, I sat in there for about an hour and a half, and then they came into-- they returned with brown paper bags with all of my belongings from the CHU [Compartmentalized Housing Unit] that were electronic-- and they had that outside the interview room.  So, the interview room [missed a few words].

Defense (Coombs)

When you say CHU that is your living quarters?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, the Compartmentalized Housing Unit at FOB Hammer.

Defense (Coombs)

And, after this time period, were you required to be escorted, where ever you went?

Pfc. Manning

I was required to be escorted everywhere I went except for in the shower at the-- whenever I went into the shower trailer.  They had-- I wouldn't have somebody there at all times for that.  So, I had some privacy.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  And, did you at that point realize you were in pretrial confinement?

Pfc. Manning

I did not sir, no.

Defense (Coombs)

When did you first realize that you were actually were in pretrial confinement?

Pfc. Manning

It was a few days later.  I think it was two or three days later when I was transferred to-- we went to-- I was escorted, along with the prosecution to Camp Victory[BFIF?] in Iraq to I think it was Camp Liberty, where we had our pretrial confinement hearing.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  Did you recall the date of your pretrial confinement hearing?

Pfc. Manning

I don't remember the exact date.  I think it was the night of the 29th or the 30th of May 2010, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, where-- I guess-- what happened at this hearing once you had the pretrial confinement hearing?

Pfc. Manning

Well I was-- we argued our points but I was placed-- but, I continued to be placed by the magistrate into pretrial confinement, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, after the pretrial confinement hearing was completed, where were you taken?

Pfc. Manning

I was taken-- we-- we had two escorts from my unit.  They were from my company.  We transferred to Camp Arifjan overnight.  So, it took about 24 hours in transit.  It's the logistics of being downrange.  It took a while to get there, but we finally-- I finally arrived at Camp Arifjan in Kuwait.

Defense (Coombs)

And where were you held when you first arrived at Camp Arifjan?

Pfc. Manning

After an initial intake at the trailer, I was brought to a tent building hybrid.  And, inside of it, there were two cage like cells.  And, there is where I was held for the first 72 hours, I believe, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

So, can you describe the area.  So, it was a tent, and there were two cells inside of it?

Pfc. Manning

There were two cage like contraptions that-- they were about eight by eight by, maybe, another eight cubed.  So, it is a cube, and there is a rack and a toilet in there.

Defense (Coombs)

When you say rack, a bed?

Pfc. Manning

Right.  The Navy calls their beds racks.  So, that was where I slept.

Defense (Coombs)

So, there were two of these in this tent.  Was there anyone else held in the other cell?

Pfc. Manning

Nobody was in the other cell, cage. I don't know what to call it, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  And, during the time that you were there.  You said that you were held there for about 72 hours?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.  It was a-- their indoctrination period.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what were you doing, during those 72 hours?

Pfc. Manning

I had-- I had their 'Manual for Guidance of Inmates' which is just basically their booklet on all the rules and what is expected of me at the facility. 

And, I read through that, and it was pretty much the only thing I really could do.  I mean, I had sheet and a pillow, and some blankets, and some changes of uniform, and some toiletry items, but I just stayed in there, except for going to chow.

Defense (Coombs)

Where you allowed to speak to anyone when you were in the 72 hour hold?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir, I was not.

Defense (Coombs)

Where you allowed to make any phone calls?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir I was not.  Well, I did interact briefly with the guards as they gave me meals.  They brought the meals to my cell.

Defense (Coombs)

Where did you go to after this 72 hours?

Pfc. Manning

They brought me to-- it was a tent with the other pretrial detainees that were at Camp Arifjan, and that's were I stayed during the day time [missed a word], and I slept at night.

Defense (Coombs)

And, before you were transferred to this other tent, we will talk about your conditions there, do you recall collapsing in your cell in the-- during that 72 period?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.  I don't remember if it was the second day I was there or not, but—and, I don't recall who exactly was there, but the lights weren't on—and, the air conditioning system was not working inside the tent, so it was hot in there. 

It was dark.  They had a door.  So, it was still a tent, but it had a physical door that was built into it—and, two figures came in. 

They started talking to me.  I could not really understand what they were saying, and then I just faded out, and the next thing I knew I had the Navy corpsmen, you know, 'Are you okay?' He was asking me if I was okay, and I said , 'Yes.' I think I was just dehydrated, cause, you know, it was hot in there.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  Now, when you got transferred to the general population tent.  Can you describe that for Colonel Lind [the Judge]?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, it is a twenty-man tent.  So, it is roughly the size of the-- maybe twice the size of the panel area [in the Courtroom].  So, not horribly huge, but enough for twenty men-- for twenty soldiers to live in, you know.  And they had bunks inside of there-- maybe eight bunks.  So, they were standard barracks bunks, metal bunks, and that is what--

Defense (Coombs)

So, you weren't in a cell, you got put into the tent?

Pfc. Manning

Correct.  It was an open bay area.  It was still a tent, but like an open bay area.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when you were transferred there, how many detainees where in that open bay tent?

Pfc. Manning

There were usually between three to six there, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what time would you start your day when you were in that open bay tent?

Pfc. Manning

We-- Reveille which they called--  The wake up call was reveille-- They called 'reveille' at 22 hundred, so at the-- right after sunset we were woken up, and we were-- that is whenever our day started.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so if I am understanding correctly.  You were not on a normal day/night schedule, you--

Pfc. Manning

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

--your day started at 22 hundred hours?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

When did your day end?

Pfc. Manning

Our day ended at, I believe, it was at 13 or 14 hundred the proceeding day.

Defense (Coombs)

And what would you do on a typical day?

Pfc. Manning

Normally, we would-- first have a brief recreation call, exercise call, which we could walk around outside.  There was a track area that was around-- in between the double fences of the facility. 

And, then we would go to chow. We had a be back to the giant facility tent.  We would be escorted to the dining facility tent, and we would stay there.  And, then we stayed in a recreation tent for other times-- other lengthy time periods.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when you are-- when you are in the recreation tent what could you do?

Pfc. Manning

There was a TV set, an old CRT TV set.  There was a VHS player, and some library books, and a lot of old VHS tapes.

Defense (Coombs)

How many hours out of the day would you be in the tent, excluding the hours that you were sleeping?

Pfc. Manning

Excluding the hours that I was sleeping, we would either spend between four and ten hours inside of that tent. Although other times we spent, where if we weren't in-- we spent time in there. The reason why there is quite a large discrepancy is because there's a-- rec [recreation] we would spend time in the recreation tent or with the TV.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  So, during this time, were you able to call anyone?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  We had limited phone privileges that were early in our day-- so early in-- in the middle of the night, so around afternoon stateside time.  So, we could-- it worked for most people to be able to call their families and things.

Defense (Coombs)

And, were you able to call your family?

Pfc. Manning

I didn't have a lot of phone numbers, so.  I had my aunt's phone number.  That is one.  I memorized that.  So, I called.  So, yes.  I did call family, or, I called, in particular, my aunt.

Defense (Coombs)

And, how did it feel to be able to speak to a family member?

Pfc. Manning

It felt really good to finally reconnect with somebody.  It had been nine days, I think, that I had no contact with family at that point. 

And, it was good to know that I wasn't fully cut off from the world, for at least those ten to fifteen minutes that we were authorized for that phone call-- for those phone calls.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you also able to speak with legal counsel for this time?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.  We had attorney phone calls that would be scheduled by our-- by the TDS [Trial Defense Service] counsel.  And, those were every-- I mean, they had a special area for those phone-- for those phone calls, but the TDS counsel I had didn't really call a lot, at that time.

Defense (Coombs)

Did there come a time when you were removed from the open bay tent back to a segregated tent?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  I remember-- I think about two weeks into-- maybe a little bit less-- might have been actually just one week of being there. 

I was put back into, and I stayed in the segregated-- the tent-- the tent with the cages and cells where I [missed a few words] again.

Defense (Coombs)

So, that would be roughly around the middle of June you think?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  So I would guess between the 14 and 18 June, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, did they tell you why you were being removed to the administrative segregation tent?

Pfc. Manning

I don't-- I don't remember exactly what the reasons were, sir.  I don't know, if you have anything to remind me.

Defense (Coombs)

No.  I don't have any documentation of that.  So, can you describe the cell that you were moved to?

Pfc. Manning

It was the same cell that I was in for the reception time period, except I was able--  So I had my sheets, blanket, and changes of clothes, hygiene items, et cetera. 

So, this is the same unit, but I would go out as I was-- I was just separated from everybody else during the time period in which they were in the tents.  So, I still went to the recreation tent.  I still went to the dining facility tent, et cetera.

Defense (Coombs)

So, even though you were held in the 'admin seg' tent you still went to the dining facility with the other pretrial confinees?  You still went to recreation with other pretrial confinees? 

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Was anyone else in the cell with you at this time?

Pfc. Manning

No.  There was another cell adjacent to it.  But, nobody was in it, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what were you allowed to have within your cell?

Pfc. Manning

Again, it was sheets, pillow, pillow case, my uniform, so a couple changes of clothes, some books that I checked out of the library, and, yeah, that was—So, most of the items that I was authorized to have I kept inside the cell.

Defense (Coombs)

Where was this cell-- this admin segregation tent cell in relation to the tent that you were held at, with the open bay?

Pfc. Manning

It was approximately, I would say, eight or ten meters away, with a partition fence.

Defense (Coombs)

So, within close proximity to where you were previously held?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, can you describe for Colonel Lind, your typical day, once you were in this admin seg tent?

Pfc. Manning

It was almost identical to the one before, except instead of spending time in the open bay tent with the bunks.  I would spend that time in my segregations cell.

Defense (Coombs)

How many hours a day do you think you were held in your segregation cell by yourself?

Pfc. Manning

Again, for four to eight.  So that same time period, where I was in the open bay tent, transferred over into being in that other tent.

Defense (Coombs)

How did being held separately from everyone else impact you?

Pfc. Manning

I didn't talk to people as much-- I mean it was only during the recreation calls and things.  So, yeah—And, spending that time alone-- I mean, it was such a-- I didn't know what was going on and, you know, in terms of the case or anything like that.  I didn't have, like, formal charges or anything. 

Really didn't know what was going on, or anything like that.  So, I was really limited in my interactions with anybody.  So, it was a little draining. 

It was actually very draining.

Defense (Coombs)

And, how were you-- were you sleeping much during this time period?

Pfc. Manning

No.  It was-- my nights were my days, and my days were my nights, so it all blended together after a couple days.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, during the deployment you also worked on the night shift is that true?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, I did sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you have problems sleeping during the deployment?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, I did sir, and I brought that to the attention of the NCOIC [Non Commissioned Officer in Charge] quite often.

Defense (Coombs)

So, the combination of not really getting a lot of sleep, and then the stress of just being in the cell by yourself, can you tell Colonel Lind how that was impacting you?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I mean, I am generally a pretty social and extroverted person, but, you know, was sort of put in that role of just sort of being there for long periods of time by myself.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you still able to make phone calls when you were in the admin seg tent?

Pfc. Manning

No.  A few-- I think, because I-- I made-- I made, I think, three phone calls successfully. 

One was to my aunt, because that was the only phone number that I really had.  And, I think I made two-- I think I made one successful phone call to the only other number that I knew-- was for my-- the person I was in a relationship with previously, Tyler Watkins. 

I talked to him.  But those phone privileges were removed shortly after my first three phone calls.  So I lost that privilege, I don't know why. 

It was never explained to me.  But, I lost that privilege pretty quickly.

Defense (Coombs)

Without having the ability to call family or call somebody that you were dating at the time, how did that impact you?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I don't know if we were dating.  I don't know what the status was at that time for the relationship.  But, you know, I was in pretty stressful situation.  Not really-- I had really no idea what was going on with anything. 

And, you know, I was getting very little information from Captain Bouchard, the defense attorney that was assigned at the time, because, he did have a lot of information either.  So-- And that became sort of my only conduit, the one person that I really got any information from. 

Because, at Camp Arifjan, they don't allow like news or-- they don't have any TV.  Like the TV was separate.  They didn't allow radio.  So, you didn't get any current events information.  It was just a contained environment.

Defense (Coombs)

Did there come a time when you were no longer taken out of your cell for the rec hall [recreation hall] and to eat?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.  There was.

Defense (Coombs)

And when was this?

Pfc. Manning

I don't recall the dates.  I started to really deteriorate in terms of my awareness of my surroundings and what was going on.  I was more insular.  More worried about--  just being anxious all the time about not knowing anything, and being worried.  You know-- days turned to nights.  Nights turned-- I mean everything blended together, and, just sort of just became more insular, and, I just sort of lived inside my head.

Defense (Coombs)

Where were you receiving your chow at this point?

Pfc. Manning

It was given to me through-- I was staying inside the administrative cell.  So, back in the cage, and then they would give it to me just as before, whenever I was in the reception cells.

Defense (Coombs)

Did anyone ever explain to you why you were no longer being taken out of your cell to be with the other detainees?

Pfc. Manning

I didn't have a full-- really good understanding of the reasons.  I think if somebody had-- I think somebody tried to explain it to me, but again I was just a mess at that point.  I was really starting to fall apart.

Defense (Coombs)

During this time did the guards start inspecting your cell?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  They-- They went through-- They called it a 'shakedown'.  It was pretty-- It was-- I mean it got to the point where they almost did it two to three times a day, where they would go in. 

They would take me out of the cell, and have me sit down facing away from the cell.  And then, they would just tear apart the-- at all the limited stuff that I had in the cell.  Just throwing it everywhere.  I don't know if they were searching for anything or if they were looking for anything, but it would definitely look looked through.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  Now, on June 30th 2010, do you recall losing control of yourself on that day to the point that medical doctors, mental health professionals had to intervene?

Pfc. Manning

Very limited-- memory of that.  Very vague.  I just remember being told about that mostly.

Defense (Coombs)

Do you recall yelling uncontrollably, screaming, shaking, babbling, banging your head against your cell and mumbling?

Pfc. Manning

Those details, no.  But, I knew that I had-- I had just fallen apart.  I mean I-- everything is fogging and hazy from that time period.

Defense (Coombs)

Do you recall why that happened at all?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I mean-- I usually know what is going on.  I usually have a pretty solid knowledge of what's going on and I can figure things out-- like in terms of, you know, my--  like-- like my job, or, you know, my family.  I usually-- current events that are going on. 

I am usually grounded pretty firmly in, like how I connect to the rest of the world, in those things. 

So, after having those cut off, I really started to just not really get anything.  I just started living inside my-- the limited surroundings that I had. 

My world just shrunk to just Camp Arifjan, and then to that cage.

Defense (Coombs)

And, did you see any documentation at that point to know that what you experienced apparently was a breakdown or an anxiety attack?

Pfc. Manning

What is that, sir?

Defense (Coombs)

Did anyone show you anything?  Or, did anyone talk to you later-- a mental health professional-- to explain what you experienced there was a breakdown or an anxiety attack?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  I talked very frequently with mental health professionals-- both at the Camp Arifjan Hospital.  They didn't have a full time psychiatrist or psychologist at Camp Arifjan itself.  They had a medical doctor, a flight surgeon I think, sir. 

And-- but I spoke pretty frequently with them.  It was Lt. Commander Weber and Captain Richardson at Camp Arifjan Hospital and Mental Clinic.  So, they are [missed end of phrase].

Defense (Coombs)

And, do you recall during this time making a noose out of bed sheets?

Pfc. Manning

Vaguely.  I mean I just-- I remember-- I mean I don't remember that particular-- I remember being taken out, and them finding that. 

I just remember my stuff being all over the place.  Because, after they started doing the 'shakedowns', I stopped-- I stopped making my bed and things, you know. 

Because, it was getting-- they were just tearing up all my stuff up all the time anyway.  So, I don't recall making it, but I remember thinking, you know, 'I am gonna die.  I am stuck here in this cage, and I don't know what is going to happen.' 

Like, I mean, I thought I was gonna die in that cage, and that is how I saw it.  It's like an animal cage.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you, at that point, plan on doing anything, taking your own life?

Pfc. Manning

I certainly contemplated it.  I didn't.  I mean it was sort of futile at the same time.  I felt at the time there was no means.  Even if I made a noose-- I mean, there wasn't anything I could do with it.  I mean, there wasn't anything to hang it on, like.  So, it just felt pointless.

Defense (Coombs)

After 30 June and having the breakdown, and then finding this material in your cell what happened?

Pfc. Manning

They took me out of that cell, and they moved me to the cell next to it. 

They removed some of my clothing, and then they gave me a smock.  They took away my glasses and everything.  So, I had-- So, they put me into the cell adjacent to, but, I was-- they placed me on suicide watch at that point.

Defense (Coombs)

And, how long were you held in this cell?

Pfc. Manning

I believe thirty days with I believe a brief break for maintenance thing. 

I don't remember the timing of that.  But, I spent the rest of the time at Camp Arifjan inside the cell.

Defense (Coombs)

So, up until they time that they took you to Quantico?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

During this time, did you ever recall every speaking with Dr. Richardson?

Pfc. Manning

Captain Richardson?

Defense (Coombs)

Yes.

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  He was a psychiatrist.  I spoke to him on occasion.  I don't know how often.  A lot of the early time frame of early July is a total blur.

Defense (Coombs)

And, why is that?

Pfc. Manning

I had pretty much just given up.  I mean, I did not know what was going on.  And, nobody was gonna tell me anything. 

And, you know, I remember I had limited contact with Captain. 

I still had attorney phone calls, but I had like three Navy personnel that would sit around me while I was making these phone calls.  And, we did not feel comfortable talking to each other over the phone about anything to do with what little Captain--

Defense (Coombs)

Bouchard?

Pfc. Manning

--Captain Bouchard knew about the case, because he did not know a lot at that time.

Defense (Coombs)

Do you recall telling Captain Richardson that you were considering committing suicide?

Pfc. Manning

I don't know how I conveyed it to him, but I explained what I did-- something similar to what I had just explained before.  That, you know, I had contemplated it, and, you know, it was-- but, it also seemed pointless at the same time. 

I was uncertain.  I didn't want to.  I didn't-- I didn't want to die.  I just wanted to get out of that cage.  I just remember being trapped on that cage, like all the time.

Defense (Coombs)

Do you recall telling him, that if you believe that you could be successful--

Prosecution (Fein)

Objection, your Honor. Leading their witness, the accused.

Defense (Coombs)

If I could finish my question?

Judge Lind

I am going to allow it for now.  Go ahead.

Defense (Coombs)

Do you recall telling Dr. Richardson, that if you could be successful in committing suicide, you would?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  I don't know how-- I don't know how I conveyed that to him, but I did.

Defense (Coombs)

And, why were you feeling that way?

Pfc. Manning

It just felt.  I just pretty much had given up on a lot of things. 

I mean I just remember that my world had just shrunk.  It had just shrunk to this-- to this eight by eight sort of metal cell, and I didn't know what time of day it was or anything else. 

That was sort of what I was trapped in.

Defense (Coombs)

Did Dr. Richardson give you anything to help you with how you were feeling?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  He gave me some medication.  I know it was.  It was an SSRI [Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor]. 

I don't remember if it was Celexa or Zoloft.  And, then a 'benzo'.  I don't recall exactly what it was-- whether it was clonazepam or something similar.

Defense (Coombs)

And, how were you--

Pfc. Manning

--or Ativan.

Defense (Coombs)

How did this medication impact you?

Pfc. Manning

Whenever I take SSRI's-- cause I have taken them before, I have side effects. 

So, I have nose bleeds, nausea for the first couple days.  So I remember that. 

I remember being very-- I wasn't given the full dosage for Celexa immediately.  I was given a half-- I was given a half dosage for the first week, just to sort of curb on those initial side effects, and a urinary issues.

Defense (Coombs)

Did the medication that you were receiving, the Celexa or the other medication--

Pfc. Manning

--It was an SSRI, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

--did that help you?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  I mean, I started to flatten out by about two weeks-- maybe two weeks.  I don't remember the number of days.  It all just came together.  But, halfway through that time period.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you say flatten out?  What do you mean by that?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I wasn't nearly as anxious.  I was talking to the guards that were watching me, and just sort of-- I felt better at that point.

Defense (Coombs)

By, 29 July of 2010, the date that you were moved from Kuwait and arrived to Quantico, how were you feeling?

Pfc. Manning

By 29 July?

Defense (Coombs)

Yes.

Pfc. Manning

I was feeling better.  I was, you know-- felt more stable in terms of-- I mean  I know I am in-- I know I am stuck here, you know.  I don't know what is going to happen or what is going to go on at this point, but, you know, I figured I would ride it out, whatever it is.

Defense (Coombs)

Do you know what happened-- actually, let's go to the date that you were removed from your cell in Kuwait.  When they took you out of your cell, did you know where you were going?

Pfc. Manning

I had no idea where I was going.  I knew that I was leaving the facility.

Defense (Coombs)

How did you know that?

Pfc. Manning

They had briefed me.  And, when I say they, I mean the corrections staff. 

I don't remember who it was.  I think it might have been-- I think it might have been the-- it might have been the executive officer. 

I think it was Lt. [Commander? Bar?]-- might have been, but I think it was also-- I think it was an enlisted-- a senior enlisted person, sir-- maybe Master Chief or the Chief at the time-- and, basically said-- said, 'You're being transferred to a different facility.  We are not gonna,' you know, 'That is all the information we have.' 

And, then I started gathering my things in the cell.  Cause they kept all my belongings in the cell next to me, but I was authorized to have them.  They started inventorying that. 

Defense (Coombs)

Describe that day for Colonel Lind.  Like what happened once they got done inventorying, and you were being escorted out?

Pfc. Manning

It was almost sundown.  Cause I remember the door was open to the tent.  And, they inventoried my belongings.  And, I was there present.  They gave me-- They took away the smock and they gave me clothing. 

And, then they brought me to the front of the facility where they had transfer to the medical staff. 

I had a full physical done, and I filled out some-- I filled out some paperwork for receiving my [blinds?]. 

And, by this time it was dark, so I left the-- so, I left the facility, and it was probably about zero one in the night.

Defense (Coombs)

And, where were you taken?

Pfc. Manning

I was taken to a convoy of vehicles to Kuwait City to the airport at Kuwait City.

Defense (Coombs)

And, at this point did you know where you were going to be going?

Pfc. Manning

I had no idea.  I only speculated to where I was going.  I mean, I didn't know if I was going-- I didn't think I was going anywhere CONUS [Continental United States].  I thought I was going to another-- I was hoping Germany-- Mannheim, Germany was a possible option.

Defense (Coombs)

Why were you hoping that?

Pfc. Manning

Well, it is not the alternatives which I speculated on at that time-- which was like Guantanamo Bay, Cuba or Djibouti or some place, you know, outside of the United States.

Defense (Coombs)

Why were you thinking that you might be taken to some of those places?

Pfc. Manning

I don't know.  It was just a-- there was this-- I had been conveyed some serious charges, but I didn't really have a lot of guidance legally with Captain Bouchard, because of the limitations of the telephonic-- and having the guards there listening in-- so I just speculated and guessed.

I mean, I have worked-- I don't know-- I did not know how the American detention worked for, you know, American confinees.  I knew for other detainees, but not for me-- not like soldiers for court-martial.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you scared what might happen to you?

Pfc. Manning

Certainly.  I was very scared, but again I had no idea.

Defense (Coombs)

So, when you arrive at Kuwait City, what happens then?

Pfc. Manning

They brought me to a holding area at the facility.  They removed a TV physically from that holding area, and I sat there for about eight hours until we got on a charter plane to, I believe-- We got on the plane--

Defense (Coombs)

When you got on the plane did you know where you were going?

Pfc. Manning

I did not, sir.  I still had no idea where I was going-- but I was slightly more-- I was suddenly comforted by the fact it was a charter plane.  So, it was a commercial airliner that was-- there was military personnel being moved somewhere.

Defense (Coombs)

Did the captain of the plane make any comments?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  The captain went over-- That was how I knew where I was going.  The captain went over the intercom and said, you know, 'Flight time is this.  We will be arriving at Mannheim, Germany,' you know, 'in the next however many hours--  flight,' you know, 'altitude.'  So, that is how I managed to figure out where I was going, in terms of that stage of the transportation process.

Defense (Coombs)

And, once you arrived in Germany, what happened?

Pfc. Manning

Again, I was taken to another holding area.  Again, I speculated where I was going, not knowing.  They removed me completely from the plane.  I was in full restraints.  I was a detainee.  Although, I was still in Army ACU's [Army Combat Uniform].  And, then I was held in one of the terminals in Mannheim, and I think it was at Mannheim.  It was Germany. 

And, then sat there for about  an hour and a half, and then we got back onto the plane.  It was the same plane we were on before, and the same seating area.

Defense (Coombs)

And, at this point, did you know where you were going?

Pfc. Manning

Again, I found out the same way.  It was a different captain, but he said, you know "Flight time.  We should be arriving at Baltimore Washington International Airport,' you know, so.  I knew I was going CONUS at that point, which was-- at least I was hoping that we were just going to stay CONUS.

Defense (Coombs)

And, how were you feeling at that point when you knew that you were going to be going to the States?

Pfc. Manning

I felt a lot better.  I mean, I didn't think I was going to set foot on American soil for a long time, so.  I was elated. 

As silly as it sounds, it felt a lot better, knowing that at least I am going to be-- And, you know, I know Baltimore Washington International Airport. 

So we actually landed and went through customs just like-- obviously for the soldier portion-- for the charter area-- but, went through customs just filling out the same-- filled out the same paperwork, you know, transferred through. 

So, it was great to be in familiar surroundings-- American soil-- BWI [Baltimore Washington International Airport].

Defense (Coombs)

And, where did you go once you got-- from BWI?

Pfc. Manning

They got a rental car.  So, I was in a holding area.  So, they transported me very quickly into the vehicle through the terminal, into the parking or into the bay area. 

Just got into a Dodge Charger-- I think it was a Charger.

Defense (Coombs)

A van?

Pfc. Manning

No, it was a Charger.

Defense (Coombs)

Oh, and actual car?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  And then, where were you taken?

Pfc. Manning

We drove South.  And, I eventually figured out from the-- they had Google Maps-- a print out  of the directions to Quantico.  So, I knew then that was the destination.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so we're now going to talk about your arrival at Quantico.  Before I go in there, do you need a break or are you okay?

Pfc. Manning

I am good, Sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  What time did you get to Quantico.

Pfc. Manning

I don't know the exact time.  It was early evening.  So, maybe about 6 p.m.

Defense (Coombs)

And, at this point how long had you been awake?

Pfc. Manning

Over 24 hours with-- I slept for maybe 90 minutes on the plane from Germany to BWI.

Defense (Coombs)

And, why did you sleep so little on the plane?

Pfc. Manning

It was difficult.  There were restraints and I was-- I was being-- it wasn't comfortable positions.  It was a coach type seat with full restraints-- so, a body cuff.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  So, when you got to Quantico, can you tell Colonel Lind what happens?

Pfc. Manning

Taken to their in processing area-- so through the side of the facility they have an in processing area for detainees.  I was transferred administratively, in terms of paperwork. 

Taken to the changing area, where I was strip searched-- scars, marks, tattoos is what they normally do.  They take notations of that. 

They had signs with Marine Corps rank.  And, I was--  I had Marine Corps correctional specialists working. They were doing the strip search and everything-- explaining to me-- well not really explaining-- but telling me what to do at that point.

Defense (Coombs)

So, after you got through this, what did the guards say to you?

Pfc. Manning

What did they say to me?  I mean-- I mean it's-- it's-- they are ordering me to do things.  So, I fill out paperwork mostly. 

I was taken to a dark area-- or a dark room next door, and then I have then Corporal Hanks, you know, ask me a bunch of question-- like administrative information, suicide risk questions, et cetera, and filled out paperwork. 

And, I spent several hours filling out paperwork.

Defense (Coombs)

At that point, did you-- once you were filling out paperwork-- did you respond to any questions from the actual guards?

Pfc. Manning

Well, yes.  That is what they were doing. They-- I was-- They would ask me questions, like, 'Do you have any psychological disorders?' or 'What's your address?' 'What is your name?'  Things like that, so.

Defense (Coombs)

And, were they telling you whether or not you were getting any of these answers wrong or right?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, I mean, because it's a-- whenever you-- in processing into the Marines Corps facility.  And, I assume that every correctional facility I have been to, it is a sort of a 'shark attack' basic training-- called a 'shark attack' environment where you're-- everything you do is wrong.  They are trying to build you up from, you know, they try to show you who, you know-- that they are the ones that are in charge.  So they-- you know, they tell you what to do. 

I mean, I don't know what a bulk-- I didn't know what a bulkhead was, and they told me to face the bulkhead, 'Okay,'  I felt,  'I don't know what a bulkhead is.' 

'Face the bulkhead!' and I learned like Navy terms as well, and Marine Corps rank and things like that.  And everything I did was wrong at that point, you know, in terms of-- I got rank wrong, and I got all kinds of things wrong,  because I didn't know, so--

Defense (Coombs)

Alright--

Pfc. Manning

--I was learning.

Defense (Coombs)

Do you recall ever writing down, 'Always planning, but never acting' on your intake questionnaire with regards to a question of suicide?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  They-- There was a lot of questions that-- I was swarmed with all the paperwork, and they were-- most of it was verbal. 

So, I said to the suicide questions both times I said, 'No. Not suicidal.'  You know, but they would ask me questions like, 'Well why were you on suicide-- Why were you on Suicide Watch then?' 

It was, you know-- It was-- They would ask a question and then would sometimes say I was wrong, you know, in terms of like my address, and not giving them the Zip Code, 'Are you going to give us the Zip Code?' 

I mean, and that was sort of the vibe that I got through that, and asking questions. 

And, it was the same with paperwork.  I filled out the paperwork, and it was a page at a time. 

So, I would fill out one page, and then they would-- and then I would have-- I think it was-- it was then Corporal Hanks, later Sergeant Hanks that filled out or that examined the paperwork, and so I would have to cross things out, because it was wrong, or, you know, or not what they were expecting in terms of the dates, you know, they have their dates different. 

And, when I came to that question, they said that, you know, because I was on suicide watch, I had to put something down on that.  So, I did. 

I wasn't thinking to much about what I was putting down, but, you know, I put it down, and I regret it. 

But, it was sort of sarcastic, because I had spent so much time on suicide watch in Kuwait.  I didn't really-- and I had been told by Master Sergeant Papakie, who briefed me, for a brief period of time that I was going to be on suicide watch, whenever I was finished, so. 

So, that is what I filled out-- the paperwork.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  Now, were you eventually moved to a cell?

Pfc. Manning

Later, but I-- I went and talked to Captain Hocter first.  That was the first time that I had met Captain Hocter. 

They took me to an office, one of the medical offices, and I spoke with him for about an hour and a half. 

And, then I returned to filling out paperwork, but then they moved me to the cell. 

It was already past lights out, or 'taps' as they call it at the Brig. 

Defense (Coombs)

And, what time would that normally be?

Pfc. Manning

It was 22 hundred, sir.  So, it was past 22 hundred, but I was still filling out paperwork, and again it was very similar. 

I would have one sheet of paper examined by the guard, and looked over for any mistakes or anything. 

I just wanted-- at that point I just wanted-- I think they offered a shower, but I just wanted to go to sleep, because I hadn't slept in so many hours. 

I had been in transit for the last almost two days-- it felt like, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so overall, even though being tired, how did you feel about being at Quantico, and being in the United States?

Pfc. Manning

Oh, it was great, because-- I mean-- I mean I know it is not the ideal environment, but it is a-- it is a brick and mortar building. 

It's got air conditioning.  It's got solid floors, hot and cold running water. 

I mean a lot of amenities that I wasn't use to for that period of time-- for quite a lengthy period of time.  So I felt--  And, it was great to be on continental United States soil. 

It was-- that felt like reassurance, especially being in the DC/Baltimore, Northern Virginia area.  I live in Maryland, and so I knew the area as well, and I knew that family could visit, and I had been told that my family could visit.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you get a visit from your company commander at this point?

Pfc. Manning

That was the following morning.

Defense (Coombs)

And, who was this?

Pfc. Manning

Captain Casamatta.  This was my company commander at the time, and I had-- I didn't know that they had actually PCS [Permanent Change of Station ] move me to the Military District of Washington. 

So, then I was introduced to my new company commander, First Sergeant--  Captain Casamatta, and First Sergeant Williams.

They came to me the next day.  It was great to talk to them, because I got a run down of a lot of things I didn't know in terms of PCS move and, you know, where my belongings were, and what chain of command I fall under and everything else. 

So, I got a lot explained to me in that time period.  I felt reassured that I had such an awesome, you know, company commander-- was a very reassuring feeling, you now, from being in a-- and I know it sounds silly, you know, but, even though it was Quantico Base Brig-- it's a prison, but, you know, but it was just a permanent structure, at that time.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, and I imagine once you are at Quantico, where you able to see family member?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  I mean there was an indoctrination period. 

So, I was given a booklet on what rules and regulations I was-- even though I was-- I was on suicide risk status at that time, but they allowed an exception. 

They allowed my aunt to come and visit me.  That was the first time I had seen family members.

Defense (Coombs)

Where you able to meet with defense counsel?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  I had been assigned at that time, Major Hurley as temporary defense counsel. 

Just for the transition period, so I spoke to him a few days after-- if not the immediately following my command visit.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what sort of status were you on at this point?

Pfc. Manning

I was placed on-- and I was told when I arrived there, that I was going to be on the same status as I was in Kuwait, suicide risk status, and that I would be evaluated, and then I would have, you know, a classification set in a few days.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you told what custody status? Maximum?  Medium?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I mean, if you are on--  if you are on POI [Prevention of Injury] or MAX-- I was on MAX.  If you are on suicide risk status, you are automatically placed on MAX status, so.  I was automatic, so.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  And, let's talk about some of the-- for a moment-- what it meant to be on maximum custody status for you? Okay?  How often, where you required to be physically checked?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I had line of sight.  So, there was a guard-- this is just a--

Defense (Coombs)

Just for MAX.  We will talk about the suicide [risk] in a moment?

Pfc. Manning

Oh.  For MAX status, the facility-- the Quantico Base Brig MAX status, I believe was, I believe either ten minutes or five minutes for MAX status.

Defense (Coombs)

And, how were you checked when you were on MAX status?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I was checked more frequently, because my statuses were-- because I had an additional status added on to-- a part from the classification with it. 

I guess if you calculated, I think they only do ten minutes checks for MAX status. 

But, I don't know, because I was never-- I never had anything less than five minutes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, how would they check you for those five minutes?

Pfc. Manning

I mean they would physically-- I mean and when I say physically I mean they would open-- cause they were in an observation booth. 

They would open the door, and ask, you know--  They would verbally ask me if I was okay. 

Sometimes they poked their head out the door, and have line of sight and then ask me. 

And, I would always have to respond as a courtesy to the-- usually they assigned a Lance Corporal for that role, but sometimes it was a Corporal, and that was how they-- that was how they checked on me during the daytime.

Defense (Coombs)

The SECNAV instructions indicates that if you are on MAX you are not assigned outside work details.  Were you assigned any outside work details?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you even express any interest in being assigned work details?

Pfc. Manning

It had been conveyed to me by Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, when he was asking-- whenever he was interviewing me for the first time, that the jobs were available for, you know, if my status or custody level had changed. 

So, I said I am more of a clerical guy or good with paper and stuff, and he was like-- cause I did not know what was available, so. 

I am not really very good with physical stuff.  So, he told me that the only thing like that was the library, so I expressed interest in that. 

I said that I could probably implement some kind of system to organize everything, if that wasn't already in place.

Defense (Coombs)

And, were you ever assigned duties in the library?

Pfc. Manning

I was not, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Where were you assigned with regards to a cell?

Pfc. Manning

They kept me-- there were four cells that were directly in front of an observation booth with a two-- I mean it's a window, but-- I mean you can only see-- it's tinted-- it's heavily tinted on one side. 

So, you can only see your reflection on the well lit side.  So-- I forget what it is called-- it's a one-way mirror or one-way glass or one way window-- but I was held in one of the three.  I think it was-- I stayed-- They moved me around once or twice, but I stayed in three cells-- one of three cells. 

So, two on one side, and one on the other side of that other observation booth.

Defense (Coombs)

And, those that you stayed in, were always within sight of the observation booth?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  I want you to describe your cell, but in order to do that, I want to go ahead and make use of what we have here in the Courtroom, okay? 



[Coombs is referring to an at scale representation of Pfc. Manning's cell at Quantico made with white paper tape on the floor of the Courtroom.]

Image source: Clark Stoeckley

Pfc. Manning

Absolutely, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

So, if you would go head and please step out of the witness booth-- a the witness chair.  



[Pfc. Manning stands up and walk near Mr. David Coombs.]



Alright.  First of all what I want to do is--

Judge Lind

Mr. Coombs, remember I have the big screen here.  So, it is difficult.  I can't see it right now with that.

Defense (Coombs)

Ma'am, do you want to reposition or anything?

Judge Lind

That's fine.  That's fine.

Defense (Coombs)

We are going to be walking through here though, a lot, so of the Court wishes--

Judge Lind

Well, I'll stay.  I'll move if I have to.  Go ahead.

Defense (Coombs)

[to Pfc. Manning]

So, actually come up around this side for a me.  That's okay.  Now, looking at this, this cell.  Do you know the dimensions of the cell that you were in?

Pfc. Manning

It was roughly six foot by eight foot to [missed word]. 

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so what I am going to do.  I am just going to ask you to read how wide this is right now. 

[Mr. Coombs pulls out a metal tape measure.]

Pfc. Manning

That is about five eleven, six feet.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  And, so six feet.

Pfc. Manning

I don't know how many centimeters.

Defense (Coombs)

Well, we will just go ahead and go-- so how far is this?

Pfc. Manning

So, that is 95 inches, eight feet--

Defense (Coombs)

Eight feet, okay.

Pfc. Manning

--96 inches.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so your cell, if I am correct, was six feet wide?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, it was eight feet long?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so this map area represents your living space that you were in at Quantico?

Pfc. Manning

Very [missed word].  Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so now what I would you do is-- is lets go ahead and come into the cell--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

--and tell me what are some of the things that we have here. 

Can you identify?



[Defense has also used white paper tape on the floor to outline items within the cell.]

Pfc. Manning

I had a rack that was on a large metal things, so-- it would be a rack right here, which I slept on.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, and if you would, put 'rack' down onto where the rack would be.  



Pfc. Manning

Right, here Sir.

[Pfc. Manning takes a paper card with the word, 'rack' written on it and places it in the middle of the white paper tape outline of the rack within the white paper tape representation of his Quantico cell on the Courtroom floor.]

Judge Lind

Can you identify for the record how high the--

Defense (Coombs)

Yes, Ma'am.  How high off the ground was the rack?

Pfc. Manning

About two feet, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  And the witness displayed that by using a hand gesture two feet off the ground.  Can you tell me what this area is?

Pfc. Manning

I had a toilet and sink in this area, sir.  So, there would be a sink right here at about, like, waist high, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

How high-- how high would you say that is?

Pfc. Manning

Maybe, three and a half, four feet, sir.  No, it is a little less.

Defense (Coombs)

If you can put the sign of sink down, where the sink was?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, Sir. 

[Pfc. Manning places a sign with the word 'sink' written on it down in the sink outline made with white paper tape inside the white paper tape representation of his former Quantico cell.]

Defense (Coombs)

And, then you said that this other area was the toilet?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. 

It's a-- it comes-- the bowl physically comes out of the sink. 

The metal bowl-- stainless steel bowl-- it's a-- at a lower level.  So, it's about a foot and a half to the actual seating area of the bowl.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, and if you put the sign where the toilet is?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

[Pfc. Manning places a sign with the word 'Toilet' written on it down in the toilet outline made with white paper tape inside the white paper tape representation of his former Quantico cell.]

Defense (Coombs)

Now, did the toilet have anything blocking it in order to obstruct the view from the observation room to the toilet?

Pfc. Manning

The observation room was right here with the door-- right where Specialist Vincent is.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so when you say right here towards the middle the diagram of the cell?

Pfc. Manning

The door to the cell?

Defense (Coombs)

Yes.

Pfc. Manning

--was right here.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  Let's go through.  When you say right here, I have capture this for the record.  So--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

--so, for the door that-- let's talk about the observation room.  Where was the observation room in relation to your cell?

Pfc. Manning

It was right across from my cell.  And, this is assuming it's 191.  Then, if it is cell 191, then it was slightly offset. 

So, right across but slightly offset.  So, maybe two thirds of it was actually in front of the cell.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so from the observation room in front of your cell.  They could see clearly your entire-- your cell, correct?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  What I would like you to do now.  We have got some items here.  If you would go ahead and pick up.  Hold on the blanket that was provided.  This-- You are holding up what has been marked appellate exhibit 411.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

--an actual photograph of that.  And is this the same type of suicide blanket that you were provided?

Pfc. Manning

Mine was slightly thicker, and made out of a slightly coarser fabric.  This is a little bit more used.  This is more-- the ones that I was provided were straight out of the box.

Defense (Coombs)

And so, how did this blanket differ than the one that you were given?

Pfc. Manning

Slightly-- Slightly heavier, and a lot less flexible.  It was the same color though.

Defense (Coombs)

So, the one that was slightly heavier and less flexible is the blanket that you were given?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.  It was maybe a slightly lighter shade [missed word].

Defense (Coombs)

And when you used that blanket did that blanket impact you in anyway?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  I mean even this one isn't very comfortable, but I mean the smock is actually made out of the exact same fabric that I had for the blanket I was given.  This is--

Defense (Coombs)

How, if at all would that blanket affect your skin?

Pfc. Manning

It was a coarse fabric.  So, it is not very comfortable.  It is abrasive on skin at least.  I mean I got-- I had at that point in time, pretty sensitive skin [missed a few words].

Defense (Coombs)

So, that would that be like a carpet burn?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  More like a rash.  Slight burn, yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you ever complain about that to any of the medical?

Pfc. Manning

They-- I don't remember who the original corpsmen was.  I think it was an E5.  So, he was a-- he was a petty officer second class.  I don't remember his name-- but, to that corpsmen and to the later added corpsmen for the OCS [Officer Candidate School], which was across the street from the Brig-- special-- not special-- E4, but petty officer, so HM3  [Hospital Corpsman Third Class] Dodsin [sp.] was the corpsmen, and I would mention it. 

But you know-- I mean it became sort of routine thing that I was-- that I got-- I got a bit of a rash.  But, there nothing that he could really do for it.

Defense (Coombs)

If you would put down-- appellate exhibit 411 back.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. Place it here?

Defense (Coombs)

Yes, please.  Taking now a look at appellate exhibit 415, which is the suicide smock.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Is that the same suicide smock or similar to what you were given?

Pfc. Manning

This is exactly the same, except mine was brand new.  So, this one is a little bit, slightly more used, but not by much.

Defense (Coombs)

And, so the feel of the material is the same?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  The same material.  Same weight.  Same color.  Same fabric.

Defense (Coombs)

What about--

Pfc. Manning

--same manufacturer.

Defense (Coombs)

--what about the size of this smock?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  It is the same size-- made out of the same [missed two words]. 

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  If you would please put the suicide smock on just  to see the size.

Pfc. Manning

[to Coombs] Do you want me to remove the jacket?

Defense (Coombs)

That is fine.

Pfc. Manning

[Pfc. Manning removes his uniform jacket and tears open the industrial Velcro straps of the suicide smock.  He dawns the suicide smock which is enormous on his small frame.] 

Pretty strong [missed a few words. The Velcro strips make a loud noise when ripped open.]

Defense (Coombs)

From your memory, is that how the suicide smock fit you?

Pfc. Manning

This is a little bit more used, so it is a lot more flexible.  It was a little but more rigid-- the one that I had, because it was brand new, so. 

Defense (Coombs)

And, based upon this suicide smock, did you ever have an experience where it caused you any problems?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  I was laying down on the rack trying to sleep and I remember my arms went into it, and I don't want to do that right now, but my arms got into it and I got stuck.

Defense (Coombs)

And, did you need any assistance getting out of the suicide smock?

Pfc. Manning

I did.  I was still taking some sleep medication at the time, and I had I remember Corporal Sanders was the guard who actually came to the-- he opened the cell door and assisted me out of it-- released the [missed word]. 

It strong, [missed a few words] so I couldn't get out of it-- [missed word].

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  If you would, go ahead and take the suicide smock off.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, Sir.

Defense (Coombs)

If you would, go ahead and place that back down [missed word].

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Now I would look at appellate exhibit 414.  It is identified as the suicide mattress.  Is this the mattress that you were provided?

Pfc. Manning

The mattress is-- this was very similar to the mattress I was first mattress I was given, before given the specific suicide mattress. 

This is the same mattress that all cells in special quarters one had.

Defense (Coombs)

So, this was the mattress that you were given initially?

Pfc. Manning

It is the same type of mattress.  The one that I had was slightly newer.  And, so it was-- it was not as bendy or flexy--

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, and--

Pfc. Manning

--if that is possible, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

I apologize.  That could be appellate exhibit 413, the standard confinement mattress that you just described.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Let's go ahead and take a look at appellate exhibit 414.  If you would, Pfc. Manning, just come approach appellate exhibit 414.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Can you-- do you recognize this?

Pfc. Manning

No, I do not sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Have you ever seen anything like this?

Pfc. Manning

I have seen-- I mean it's got a pillow, so it is like a-- like a suicide mattress that I was given. 

But, the one I had is a lot-- is a lot more similar to the green one on there. 

This one is a lot-- its made out of-- its a lot more-- it's a lot thicker.  Looks more like an air mattress to me, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

So, how was your mattress-- the suicide mattress that you were provided for the majority of your time there-- how was that different than this one?

Pfc. Manning

It was more like this green one except brand new-- like right out-- like had never been ever used before, and-- and it had a built in pillow just like that. 

It wouldn't-- it wouldn't have-- it would have been a lot harder to bend like this-- like this is very flexible.  It was a lot harder to bend.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  And, if we take a look now--

Pfc. Manning

Sir?

Defense (Coombs)

--the pillow, which is appellate exhibit 412.  Have you ever seen anything like this before?

Pfc. Manning

I have seen a pillow like this in Kuwait-- at Camp Arifjan.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you ever given anything like that at Quantico Brig?

Pfc. Manning

I was not, sir.  I was never issued a pillow at Quantico Base, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  Retrieving the exhibit from the witness.  Pfc. Manning go head and resume your position in the stand.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

[Pfc. Manning sits back in the witness stand.]

Defense (Coombs)

So, this cell that we see on the courtroom floor, how many hours out of the day would you be in this cell?

Pfc. Manning

Depending on what the schedule of calls was for that day, and visitation to other areas, whether it was a legal visit or a counselor visit outside of my cell. 

It was between 21 and 23 hours-- sometime even over 23-- as much as 23 and a half hours [missed word].

Defense (Coombs)

So, what would you do inside of this six by eight foot cell for 23 hours a day?

Pfc. Manning

I would normally sit or just do something. 

I mean, just try to keep myself occupied.  So, I would try to think of something to do.  I would usually sit on the rack, sir. 

Sometimes they would allow me to have my legs up on the rack, in sort  of an Indian style position, but sometimes that was not authorized.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you have any natural lighting that was coming into your cell?

Pfc. Manning

In 191 or 192? No, sir. 

Those two cells-- I don't know about the other cell, because I was only in there for-- the one across from-- I don't know how long I was there for-- maybe just two days before-- just maintenance or something like that, so. 

But, there was no reasonable way of accessing natural or indirectly seeing natural light. 

You could see the window down the hall, from the cell-- but if you took your head and put it on the cell door, and looked through the crack between the cell door and the rest of the grating for the cell-- you could see down the hall-- you could see the reflection of the window-- but you couldn't see the actual window. 

But, none of that natural light would actually come in from that window.

Defense (Coombs)

Was there any skylight in the facility?

Pfc. Manning

In the housing unit between-- about half way between-- So my-- I would draw it-- I will just try and use my hands.  But--

Defense (Coombs)

Essentially-- just try to describe it, because I am gonna have to describe what you do when you when you use your hands.

Pfc. Manning

It was half way in between the-- in between the hall, the row, as they called it-- in special quarters. 

It faced outwards towards the exit.  So, it is halfway in between, and there is like a low ceiling over the first third of special quarters. 

Then the ceiling goes up maybe twenty feet.  There is a skylight that is facing the opposite-- pointing actually outside, then it goes down, and it goes down at an angle towards the fire exit and window.

Defense (Coombs)

Did any of the natural light from that skylight, make it to your cell?

Pfc. Manning

Not inside the cell.  Again, you could see the reflection of the reflection of that light on the floor-- on the reflection of the floor from-- if you angled your face-- again, upon the door of the cell, which I wasn't allowed to do, but-- normally, at least.

Defense (Coombs)

How was your cell light during the day?

Pfc. Manning

There was a fluorescent light over the rack.

Defense (Coombs)

And, were these lights turned off at night?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  There were turned off at night.  Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Was there any other lighting coming into your cell at night?

Pfc. Manning

Outside the cell, particularly two cells that I was held in the most: 191 and 192. 

There is a fluorescent light directly outside, I believe, 191 in particular that just blasts, full fluorescent light into the cell.

Defense (Coombs)

And, how did that light effect you if at all?

Pfc. Manning

Well, your-- my head, when you are sleeping, you are gonna have your feet towards the-- towards the observation area, with the head towards the wall at the back of the cell.

You couldn't turn any other way.  So that they can see your face.  So, right directly in front of you, if you did not have anything obstructing your path was the fluorescent light.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  So, when we look at the diagram of the cell, again, then your head would be roughly at the same level of the toilet?

Pfc. Manning

Roughly. Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And then your feet...?

Pfc. Manning

I-- I could see-- first thing in the morning I could see the toilet.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, also under the SECNAV, it requires MAX prisoners to wear restraints when they are outside of their cell?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

What restraints were you required to wear?

Pfc. Manning

I was required to wear, what they considered full restraint.  So, I wore hand irons. Just, regular handcuffs with a metal loop, and a belt-- leather belt was attached to that loop. 

And, then I was given leg irons for both-- on both my feet with a 20, maybe 18 inch chain between-- I am guessing at the length [missed a few words]...

Defense (Coombs)

How-- how--

Pfc. Manning

--without a measure.

Defense (Coombs)

 How difficulty was it for you to walk in your full restraints?

Pfc. Manning

You cannot walk in full restraints without a guard holding you as a safety precaution.

Defense (Coombs)

And, why is that?

Pfc. Manning

Cause, you can easily just fall, straight on your face, because-- with the belt, with the hand iron, with the hand iron, they are towards your belly button.  So, your hands are near your belly button, so you can't stop your self from failing, or anything like that, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Were these restraints taken off of you, when you went to the visitation room?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.  I might have, on occasion, had one hand released, but it would still-- but my other hand would still be locked in to the belt for-- for writing.

Defense (Coombs)

Was this also true when you were visiting with your attorney?

Pfc. Manning

That was only for attorney visits, and whenever I was signing paperwork with my command, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

When you were removed from your cell, how were you escorted?

Pfc. Manning

I was escorted with usually at least two guards and an NCO [Non Commissioned Officer], but it was-- it often went up to three guards and an NCO, and sometimes four guards and an NCO were transporting where I needed to go, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And how was the facility when you were moved?  What did they do to the facility?

Pfc. Manning

They would place the entire facility on lockdown.  So, no inmates would be moving, throughout the facility.  No other detainees or prisoners or whatever status they were in: post trial, pretrial-- it would all be-- they were put in their cells, or where ever they were, and locked down.

Defense (Coombs)

And, how do you know that?

Pfc. Manning

They would announce over the intercom system.  They would announce, 'Lockdown. Lockdown. Lockdown.' Three times, or 'Lockdown' three times, and then-- and then-- well, standby for 'Lockdown' lets you know that it was going to occur and they would announce the lockdown, and then-- and then movement was authorized for-- or they could start moving me at that point, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, how were you moved from your cell at that point.  Can you just describe that for Colonel Lind?

Pfc. Manning

Well, after-- I mean-- after I am placed in restraints, sir?

Defense (Coombs)

No.  The process of you are in your cell and they are gonna move you, what do they do?  They haven't put any restraints on you yet.

Pfc. Manning

Okay.  I approach the cell door, near the feed tray, which is in front of me.  I stand at parade rest at first.  Then they-- the guard, usually a lance corporal, or sometimes a corporal, would instruct me to put both hands or one hand out through the feed tray, and then would place the hand irons on my-- put me in-- place me in hand irons, and there was a loop attached to it in between the two cuffs. 

Sometimes it was a chain cuff, sometimes it was the hinge cuff.  They had different ones for different times, and the belt was attached, and then they would-- if it was just the one hand, they would tell me to put the other hand out after one was placed in, then, and then I would have-- they would instruct me to pull myself in.  They would hold the belt.

Then, I would spin around.  They would instruct me to spin around.  So, that they could put the belt.  So, I would do an about face movement, and then they would, you know, put the belt on, and instruct me. 

And, then after the belt was done, they would instruct me to put my knees up on the rack sometimes with my face on the wall-- sometimes I would have it stood up.  I just waited for the direct instruction, which depended on the guard, and then they would place the leg restraints on me, while I am kneeling on the rack. 

And, then they would hold-- they would hold the belt.  And, they would hold-- they would usually like grab the belt-- the slack on the belt and hold onto that.  And, I would get pulled up.  Then I would be standing erect, with at least one guard holding me.  And, I would be escorted outside the cell.

Defense (Coombs)

Now I want to just cover-- there were two time periods that you were on suicide risk, correct?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, I just want to briefly cover the conditions of suicide risk, and then we will compare that with how that differed to POI, 'prevention of injury'. Okay?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  So, real briefly, the times that you were on suicide risk, were you subject to constant observation?

Pfc. Manning

On suicide risk, yes.  Constant, directly outside of the door observation, so, what they called line of sight observation, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, how was that accomplished?

Pfc. Manning

There would be a guard, usually, and E2, usually a Private, or Private First Class for the Marines, would sit there, and he would have a clip board or at Marine Corps Base Quantico they had a green book in which they wrote down updates on whatever was going on.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, did you speak to the guard that was sitting outside of your cell during this time?

Pfc. Manning

Only if I needed something, sir.  I was not authorized to have any conversation with him.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you said that they would write down things, do you know what they would be writing down?

Pfc. Manning

I know now through discovery, but I was not privy to that [missed word].

Defense (Coombs)

Were you ever woken up during the night during this time period?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, why would you be woken up?

Pfc. Manning

Well, sometimes if they felt that there view was obstructed or seeing my face, while I am sleeping, then they would knock on the-- they would knock on the door of the cell or on the grating of the cell and instruct me to respond in some manner. 

I would sit up or move my face, depending on if I had a blanket obstructing my view or turned over so they could see my face, or some-- They just wanted-- they wanted to see my face in particular.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, why would you be covering your face, or turning your face away from the door?

Pfc. Manning

Well, when I am sleeping in-- as I am sleeping in 191 or 192, I have the light that's directly outside. 

I didn't intend-- I mean I would often try to sleep so that, that way I wouldn't get woken up.  I mean even if it meant, you know, having the bright light, you know, it seemed bright at that angle at least, you know, with that light coming in. 

I would try and fall asleep like that, but I mean I ended up always rolling over, or covering myself just as I am asleep, and then that would lead me to being woken up. 

I mean, on Suicide Risk it happened sometimes two or three times a night.

Defense (Coombs)

Where did you eat your meals when you were on suicide risk?

Pfc. Manning

I ate every meal inside of the cell, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what were you permitted to have inside of your cell, when you were on suicide risk?

Pfc. Manning

I was permitted to have-- I don't recall exactly what clothing I was authorized a part from my-- I think I had a T-Shirt, underwear, and socks on the very first time that I was ever on Suicide Risk. 

And, then I had shorts, but they were-- they were Army standard PT shorts, but the loop inside of it had been taken out.  So, it was just the elastic portion.  So, they were modified PT shorts.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you permitted to have your prescription glasses?

Pfc. Manning

For the first two nights no, sir.  For the first two days I was there, no sir.  Whenever I was in the cell, I did not have glasses.

Defense (Coombs)

And, do you need your glasses in order to see?

Pfc. Manning

I cannot see past four or five inches with detail. 

I mean, maybe with some practice, I can see depth of objects, large objects and [missed word] some things, but I cannot make out detail.  So, no.  I just can't.  I can't see without my glasses [slight laugh at himself].

Defense (Coombs)

And, so for the first you said, you couldn't see.  How many hours of the day were you required to be without your glasses?

Pfc. Manning

Anytime I was inside the cell and not doing-- filing out paperwork.  I mean again this is the very first-- I had just arrived at the facility, but they got frustrated because i couldn't see-- I couldn't see the rank on their collars. 

I remember that, so.  They authorized me to wear glasses during the daytime at some point, a few days later.

Defense (Coombs)

And, why were they frustrated that they could not see the rank on their collars?

Pfc. Manning

It's the Marine Corps. 

And, you always-- I mean every single time you spoke to somebody, you used their rank or sir or ma'am, depending on-- or Chief for Chief Warrant Officer or you know Commissioned Officer, or what not, sir. 

So, the customs and courtesies are never ending, and they expect that at all times.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you allowed to have writing materials in your cell when you were on suicide watch?

Pfc. Manning

I don't recall being able to. 

I don't remember what the handling instructions were for the first couple days I was-- I had only just arrived, so.  On reception status you are not authorized. 

So, I was on hybrid status for first week, I think, where I was on a reception status, as well as suicide risk.

So, I would have only-- I would only be authorized the rule book, what they called the 'Rules and Regulations' for the facility.  It's a Brig Order.

Defense (Coombs)

You said then after the first coupled of days, then they did let you have your glasses?

Pfc. Manning

They did, sir--

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so let's--

Pfc. Manning

I remember now it was the rank and the fact that I can read with them, but I have to put it up to my face. 

I am very near sighted.  So, they were worried because I have this book that was like right up to my face, and I talked to-- I think it was Gunnery Sergeant Blenis about that.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, let's talk about what your life was like during the period of time, that first time when you were on suicide watch. 

So, essentially you got there through 29 July to the time that they took you off 11 August--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

--okay?  Can you tell us what your average day was like during that time period?

Pfc. Manning

Certainly.  I-- They would announce reveille.  And, what is the end timeframe for that?  If you could--

Defense (Coombs)

When you were taken off of suicide watch, 11 August?

Pfc. Manning

Okay. So, from my arrival to 11 August, I was inside of the cell. 

They would announce reveille three times.  'Reveille Reveille Reveille'  Turn on the lights. 

And, then they would place a-- they don't-- On Suicide Risk, they would sometimes authorize you limited access to a razor to shave. 

So, I would shave my face with-- with a safety razor.  And then return that. 

And, then they would announce 'count'.  There would be a-- sometimes-- sometimes there was enough time to do that hygiene-- shave your face-- before count.  Sometimes there wasn't. 

So, sometimes they would conduct count almost immediately following 'Reveille Reveille Reveille'

Defense (Coombs)

And--

Pfc. Manning

--and throughout the day they would do counts.  They would deliver chow.  And, then I would--  I don't recall on suicide watch being authorized anything more than twenty minutes 'sunshine call'.  So, they would take me out of the cell to go outside in full restraints for twenty minutes.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  So you went to sleep at 22 hundred, correct?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. That was the end of the day. Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

So, from zero five to 22 hundred, other than the twenty minutes 'sunshine call' outside of your cell, were you taken out of your cell?

Pfc. Manning

On reception status, no.  So, for the first couple days, no.  And--

Defense (Coombs)

What about for the suicide watch?

Pfc. Manning

The suicide watch, without the reception hybrid status, they would take me to 'sunshine call'. 

And then on-- usually once a week I would be pulled out to see Gunnery Sergeant Blenis.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what about showers.  Were you ever taken out for showers?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, that is the other thing.  It is in the housing unit, so it is maybe fifteen meters from the exit to my cell. 

Further out from, past the-- past the point where the sunlight is. 

It's called a sunlight, right?  The hole in the ceiling-- window-- and then you have the shower.  Then, that was were I took my shower was fifteen or twenty minutes [missed word] from my cell.

Defense (Coombs)

And, how long were you provided to take a shower?

Pfc. Manning

Usually between five and ten minutes on suicide risk status with a guard standing directly outside of the shower, with line of sight on me. 

There is no-- there is nothing obstructing the view between the outside of the shower-- the outside of the cell area containing the shower.

Defense (Coombs)

So, for the rest of the time that you are inside of your six by eight cell, where you permitted to lie down flat on the rack?

Pfc. Manning

Flat-- lie down flat on the rack?

Defense (Coombs)

--yeah, on your back?

Pfc. Manning

--on reception status, all hours were considered duty hours, so no. 

The entire day you sat upright, with your legs on-- eventually the [missed word] of my legs being on the bed, but-- like an Indian style position. But depending on who the guard was. 

And then, duty hours would be implemented after I was taken off of reception status.  Duty hours being between zero five and 17 hundred to as late as 19 hundred during the weekdays, and during the holiday period, they still implemented early duty hours between zero seven and 10-- for the start of visitation period, and then they would re-implement that period, right after chow-- right after dinner chow.  So, between 16 hundred to again 18 hundred.

Defense (Coombs)

So, if it were during the duty day, were you permitted to lie down on your rack?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.  Definitely not.  Unless you had-- there was a medical exception that I did have at night, towards the end, after I would take-- I would take the Ativan-- I forgot what it was-- Clonazepam-- Klonopin.  So, I would take that and they would allow me to sleep after that.

Defense (Coombs)

So, if you lay down in your cell, and it was during the duty day, what would happen?

Pfc. Manning

You would be told not to do that.  If you continued to do so, you would face disciplinary action including having a DA board.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you permitted to lean your back against the wall...?

Defense (Coombs)

No, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

--during the duty day?

Pfc. Manning

Not during the duty hours, no.  Unless you had a back-- you always had-- any exception status would be on the handling instructions, which were normally outside on a clipboard outside of the cell.

Defense (Coombs)

And, was that always the case during your entire time at Quantico?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  I want to go to POI, but before I do that if we could take a ten minute comfort break?

Judge Lind

Alright.  And that enough for everybody?

Prosecution (Fein)

Ma'am, can we make it fifteen please?

Judge Lind

That is fine.  Court is in recess until 15:30 or 2:30 p.m.

ALL RISE

ALL RISE

Judge Lind

Please be seated.  This Article 39(a) session is called to order.  Let the record reflect all parties present when the Court last recessed are again present in Court.  Mr. Coombs?

Defense (Coombs)

Thank you, your Honor.  Pfc. Manning, I remind you that you are still under oath.

Pfc. Manning

[missed]

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, let's talk about POI.  Prevention of injury.  Were you ever downgraded from suicide risk to prevention of injury?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir, I was.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when was this?

Pfc. Manning

Mid to late August. I don't recall-- I do not remember the exact date, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  Let's compare what your life was like on prevention of injury, as opposed to when you were on suicide risk.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

During this time, were you still on MAX as well?

Pfc. Manning

I will still on-- well, being on suicide risk or POI is an automatic that you are on MAX status.

Defense (Coombs)

That was your understanding?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  That was what Gunnery Sergeant Blenis explained to me.  And from my reading of the facility rule book, it was implied.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so when you were on prevention of injury, were you still subjected to constant observation?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  But, it was not line of sight.  It was through the observation booth window.

Defense (Coombs)

How often were the Brig guards checking on you when you were on prevention of injury?

Pfc. Manning

They would open the door, and poke their head out.  And, sometimes they would step out completely, and check on me. 

I described it as physically check on me.  So, they have line of sight, and then they ask me verbally, 'Are you okay? How you doing? Are you doing good?' 

So, I respond, 'Yes, Rank.  Yes, Lance Corporal.  Yes, Corporal. Yes, PFC.'

Defense (Coombs)

And during this time that you were on POI, with the-- were you ever woken up in the middle of--

Pfc. Manning

Not, nearly as frequently.  Maybe once every few nights, but at last two or three times a week this occurred, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, was this also due to covering your head or obstructing their view in some way?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, and it wasn't intentional.  I mean it was usually just I am just rolling over during the night, so that I just end up where they-- where the guard cannot see my entire face, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, where did you eat your meals when you are on POI?

Pfc. Manning

On prevention of injury it was the same arrangement.  Where I would eat the meal in the cell, but I was given a plastic tray. 

And, it was a metal spoon for the longest time.  That is what I recall.  So, I was given on metal spoon, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, were there any other detainees near you when you were on POI status?

Pfc. Manning

They were in special quarters.  So, they weren't necessarily adjacent to me, or near to me.  But, they would-- they would be-- there were some detainees that I could hear down on the same row. 

And,  certainly there was several detainees on a row on the other side of the observation booth, where there would be a large commotion. 

I mean there was a lot of mingling and things and a lot of yelling. 

So, I knew that they-- that other detainees were there.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you permitted to speak to other detainees that are on your same row?

Pfc. Manning

Technically I was, but it had to be in a low conversational tone, but if they are not near me-- I mean even if I am talking to someone-- whenever you don't have line of sight with anybody, so-- low conversational tone is-- was anything other than yelling, so, no. 

I mean, but I was technically allowed to speak to other detainees, but in actually doing so I would be violating the conversational tone-- tone rules.  So, in essence, no.

Defense (Coombs)

And, if you violated that rule by raising your voice, what would happen?

Pfc. Manning

They would open the door to the observation booth an tell me that I wasn't-- that I needed to-- that because of the distance between me and the other detainees or prisoners-- and I don't know what status the other people are, because I can't see them.  You know, I am not allowed to talk to them. 

They might be a different-- sometimes it was a different status, but it was always that they were too far away from me to be-- for me to have a conversation with them.

Defense (Coombs)

And, at this point, as I understand what you said earlier, you were initially provided kind of the standard mattress?  Is that correct?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.  Again, much like the the green mattress that is there-- slightly-- it was slightly in better condition than that one in terms of it was more rigid-- wasn't flexible.

Defense (Coombs)

And, were you provided a pillow when you got downgraded to POI?

Pfc. Manning

No.  I've never received a pillow as far as I am aware of , sir.

Defense (Coombs)

What did you start to do with your mattress due to the fact that you did not have a pillow?

Pfc. Manning

I would take the mattress and I would roll up one end slightly so that way I could put my head on it, and that way my head wasn't down.  So, my head was elevated about another two inches, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Did there come a time that they actually did provide you with a suicide mattress that had the built in pillow?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.  They did.  They gave me a different mattress.  I think they ordered specially in December, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

December of 2010?

Pfc. Manning

December of 2010.  Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, is that when you received it?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, I received it as soon as it arrived.  It was specially ordered to--

Defense (Coombs)

And--

Pfc. Manning

--basically that is what Chief Warrant Officer Averhart said.

Defense (Coombs)

And, I know you kind of described the difference between the mattress that we have as an appellate exhibit and the one that you received, but in general, how would you describe the comfort level of the suicide mattress that you were provided?

Pfc. Manning

It was the same as the regular mattress. So, the comfort level improved with the pillow, but not by a horrible-- a large amount.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you permitted to have regular sheets or blankets once you were placed on POI?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.  I have never had sheets or blankets-- well, apart from the POI blankets.

Defense (Coombs)

And, these POI blankets, you said that they were rigid.  How were they as far as keeping you warm at night?

Pfc. Manning

They do not retain heat.  If you have two of them, I think, that the air in between them insulates a little bit better, but I didn't-- during the summertime it was very cold, and they didn't-- I mean they would usually come-- I digress a little, but they usually overcompensated the temperature.  So, if it was hot outside, it would be intensely cool inside.  So-- so it was usually cool in the wintertime as well.  But, they would issue a second blanket in the wintertime.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  Were you permitted to have personal items in your cell, once you were placed on POI?

Pfc. Manning

By personal items, if you mean like hygiene items and extra uniforms and things--

Defense (Coombs)

Right.

Pfc. Manning

--no.  I was-- if I asked for toilet paper, and I needed it, then I would have access to toilet paper or just toilet paper during the day.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so I guess, let's just continue on that one question for the toilet paper.  If you needed to use the toilet, and you needed toilet paper, how would you ask for it?

Pfc. Manning

I would stand up to the front of the door-- standing at parade rest, and I would-- and I would announce through to the escorts in the observation room-- I would announce, "Lance Corporal, detainee Manning requests permission to use toilet paper"

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so--

Pfc. Manning

--or "...permission to receive toilet paper."

Defense (Coombs)

You are at the front of your cell.  You would announce that--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

--and then what happens?

Pfc. Manning

They would sometimes come out if they weren't too busy, and then they would retrieve toilet paper.  It was either in the cell adjacent to me where other belongings were, or they would have a roll of toilet paper inside the observation room to give to me.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, so, when you were in the cell, and you were asking for that--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

--did you ever wait in order to get the toilet paper?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  I would stand at parade rest at the front of the door, until they would either see me.  I am still standing there, and then they would respond.  Sometimes if they didn't hear me, they would see me there, and know that I was wanting a request for something, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, once you received it, again there was nothing blocking their view of you when you were using the toilet?

Pfc. Manning

Correct.  That is correct, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And so, once you received the toilet paper, used it, then if you had extra toilet paper, what did you do with it?

Pfc. Manning

I always gave the toilet paper back to the guard.  I did not keep it.  As, soon-- as soon as I was finished with the toilet paper I had to give it back to the guard. 

Sometimes, if they would go back to the observation booth, then I would set it on the feed tray for them to pick up.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, if you wanted to wash your hands, then, at the sink, what would you have to do?

Pfc. Manning

I would have to do the same process.  So, I would stand at the front of the cell, and request for soap from my soap dish.  It was a lot more-- it was a lot less of a priority.  So, I didn't often receive that.  I didn't always ask for it.

Defense (Coombs)

So, there were times where you would asked for it, and they never gave it to you?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, Sir.  Were-- I would stand at parade rest there, and sometimes-- and then I would just-- they would say that they are gonna get it, and then they didn't.  And, then I would just sit down and not worry about it.

Defense (Coombs)

Now other personal items.  What else were you allowed to have in your cell other than, you-- I guess your clothes and your glasses at that point?

Pfc. Manning

The only-- the items that I had were I had a mattress, POI blanket or blankets depending on the temperature outside.  For a period of time I had flip flops.  So, socks, underwear, shorts, flip flops, and that would be all the physical items that are not attacked to the cell itself.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you permitted to have reading material in your cell?

Pfc. Manning

I don't remember the exact instructions on what-- what I was authorized to read-- when-- but I was eventually given the privilege to read, although the library collection was-- I mean it wasn't-- it was fairly limited.  So, I didn't have a lot of interest in a lot of books that they had, so I ordered some.

Defense (Coombs)

What did you order to read?

Pfc. Manning

I ordered books that I-- and that I in particular have an interest in reading or had read before and wanted to read again, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

How did you get those books?

Pfc. Manning

Those were special ordered through-- by my family and would arrive in pre-selected packages so that the facility would know that they were coming ahead of time.

Defense (Coombs)

And, do you recall what books you were reading at that time?

Pfc. Manning

I read a lot of philosophy books-- a lot of history books.  I am more of a non-fiction reader, though I do like real-- I like realistic fiction like John Grisham, Tom Clancy sort of present day real-- realistic events-- that type of fiction. 

But, more of a non-fiction reader, so.  Brian Greene is a good author.  Richard Dawkins would be an interesting author, sir.  Those are the types of books that I like to read when I have recreational time, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, were you allowed to have all those books in your cell at that point?

Pfc. Manning

No.  They were in the cell adjacent to me.  I was authorized to read books, and only read the book.  So, I would sit there and I would be reading the book. 

If I was not reading the book, then the guard would come out of the cell or announce, you know, ask me if I was still reading the book.

And, he would ask me if I was done.  If I wasn't reading it-- like even if I-- even if my eyes were taken away from it-- like just to rest my eyes-- they would open the door and ask me if I was still reading the book.

Defense (Coombs)

So, if you weren't actively reading the book, the book would be taken away--

Pfc. Manning

--and looking like I was actively reading the book, yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

--they would ask me-- they would ask to retrieve the book.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you allowed to exercise in your cell now that you are on POI?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.  Not-- not-- I mean there were ways around it in terms of not being quite exercising, but--

Defense (Coombs)

What did you try to do to get around the exercise prohibition?

Pfc. Manning

There was a lot of things-- there was a lot of things.  I would practice various dance moves-- and dancing is not technically exercising, as far as they were concerned.  It wasn't unauthorized on the handling instructions.  So, I did that sometimes.  I would do resistance training with my arms--

Defense (Coombs)

What do you mean by resistance training?

Pfc. Manning

It is where you're using-- where you're doing-- where you're putting effort against your muscles, but you are not-- you don't necessarily have a weight or anything. 

So, it is like weight training, but without the weights, because you don't-- because you might not have access to them.  So it tones muscles mostly.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what else would you do?

Pfc. Manning

Anything.  Any kind of body movement or pacing around.  Walking around.  Shuffling.  Just any type of movement. 

I mean there wasn't a lot to do, so I would just try to move around as much as I could.  Even, if it was just-- even if it was just minor movements every so often-- just keep moving.  That way I can keep the blood flowing, and stay awake.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, you indicated that, that was one form-- that the dancing was once form of pseudo exercise.  That the guards would not stop you from doing.

Pfc. Manning

Correct.  It was not-- it was not a regulation exercise as far as they're concerned-- like crunch-- like stomach crunches or pull ups or sit ups or anything like that. 

And, it wasn't-- it was up to interpretation.  I mean I guess dancing is not-- they didn't allow whistling or singing or anything like that.  So, there was a lot of things-- I mean they were very-- if it wasn't-- if it was written that it was unauthorized on the handling instructions, then they would go by that and nothing else.

Defense (Coombs)

So, when you say you were doing anything to stay awake.  What was it like to be in your cell like that-- for that period of time?

Pfc. Manning

It was pretty draining.  I can't think of another word.  Just tiring.  You are just-- if you are-- I spent a lot of time, looking for things to stay active and to keep my mind from going back to a state similar to Kuwait. 

I didn't want to-- I tried to feel as much like I wasn't trapped in it-- like a cage or a cell.  I tried to feel like I wasn't trapped in there-- that I still know where I am.  I know my environment. 

I would just try to stay active and I would try  to keep from falling asleep, because they-- that was the rule.  You were not allowed to sleep or look like-- even the appearance of sleep was considered sleeping.  So, you couldn't close your eyes or anything like that.  So, I would move around.  Get blood pumping, instead of-- just to keep myself from sleeping-- and drink-- and I drank a lot of water, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  Let's talk about some other restrictions on POI.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you still only getting twenty minutes of 'sunshine call' when you were placed on POI from suicide sisk?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.  I was authorized twenty minutes.  I don't-- I assume [missed a few words] there was a discussion at least of an upgrade to possibly thirty minutes by Gunnery Sergeant Blenis in October timeframe, but I don't know if that was ever [missed word].  I don't remember.

Defense (Coombs)

Do you know when you were upgraded, I guess from twenty minutes of 'sunshine call' to one hour of rec call.

Pfc. Manning

Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart came to see at one point and said he was-- that as long as it wasn't-- as long as I didn't do anything-- stupid is the word that I can think of, but I don't want to say that, that is what he said-- but as long as I wasn't doing anything to look like I was harming myself or anything like that, then he would allow me to have more recreation privileges. 

But, the second that I did not-- didn't comply or have anything, then it would go back to the way-- he would change the handling instructions back to the way they were before.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  So, when you were taken on-- do you recall the time period that was?

Pfc. Manning

I want to say December, because it was-- it was before-- it was in the week or two preceding or right before my birthday, which is December 17th. 

And, I remember that I spoke with you the week after that to announce it.  So, I don't-- that is what I remember, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  And, so when you were taken now for your-- I guess for the twenty minutes of 'sunshine call', let's talk about what you did from 29 July to basically December timeframe.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

My understanding is that you had two places to go inside rec and outside rec, is that right?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, depending on outdoor conditions, the temperature outside was one of the factors and whether there was icing or raining or anything.  Then, I went-- that determined whether I was at an indoor recreation area or an outdoor recreation area. 

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  So when you were taken to an outdoor recreation area, for your twenty minutes of 'sunshine call'--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

--what were you doing?

Pfc. Manning

For 'sunshine call', the twenty minute period, I would be taken outside in full restraints.  They would have one or two guards.  Always at least one guard holding me, and we would walk usually in some kind of-- like around in circles or on figure eights.  Try to change of the shape by their request, you know, to move around.  I would get some walk and see some sun, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what about indoor rec, what would you do for your twenty minutes of indoor rec?

Pfc. Manning

The same thing towards-- in-- during the autumn timeframe, I was still going outside, even when it was like there was a light mist. 

But, around-- before Thanksgiving, they cleared out one of the-- they kept-- they kept describing it as a chapel-- I don't know anything about that, but they changed it to an indoor recreation area, and I would be-- and I was transported to that indoor recreation area, and then I walked around with the guard, inside that bay area.

Defense (Coombs)

Still in restraints?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, for the 'sunshine call', yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you permitted to wear shoes during the time?

Pfc. Manning

Without laces.  I had tennis shoes that I received through my command.  They were my tennis shoes from Fort Drum.  I don't know how they got them.  I was surprised to see them again.  They removed the laces from them and they would-- I mean they are at my ankles so they would not stay on my feet.  So, I wore my Army issue tan boots for the ACUs without laces, because they-- the tongue is built in so it just stays on your feet.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  Now, when you were increased to one hour of recreation call now--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

--what would you do for your recreation call outside?

Pfc. Manning

This is recreation call so there-- for recreation call I didn't have restraints.  They would remove the restraints for outdoor.   There was a feed tray.  They would close me into the pen area. 

They call it the bullpen, which was maybe a third of the size of an NBA basketball court, and they would remove my restraints through the chain link bullpen feed tray.  And, I would walk around. 

They wouldn't let me run for the longest time, and it wasn't a good idea either, because I was wearing boots, because they didn't let me have laces. 

At some point, I got laces for my shoes.  I don't recall when or how, but I was able to do a little jogging then, and play when they gave me a basketball, so. 

There was  a hoop.  It was probably about eight feet, so it wasn't regulation, but it was a basketball hoop-- I could use.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright. And, let's talk about the indoor rec then.  What could you do on the indoor rec?

Pfc. Manning

There was less that I could do on the indoor rec.  They would take me into the indoor recreation area.  They would have a chair.  They would set me on a chair.  They would remove my restraints. 

This was the only time that they would actually remove my restraints, while they were not going through a feed tray or anything.  So, they were a lot more careful about how they did that. 

And, then-- I was always-- I would have to stay about ten or fifteen feet away from the guards, if I wasn't-- they wouldn't let me be near the guards during that time. 

And, then I was in sort of an area-- and I always have three or four guards-- and always an Non Commissioned Officer, usually and E5 or E6, would be watching me while I am in there.  And, I could walk around.  

There was a-- there was some spinners, which are a bike with some resistance, which is set with a screw, and we adjusted positions. Some guards authorize me to utilize that if I asked for permission to use it, and they did.  Used that for cardio.  And, there was a-- again, permission was required every time, but I would use the pull-up bars and-- they had a set of pull-up bars-- and I would use those-- use my own body weight for exercises.

They also had a mat so I could do sit-ups and pushups.  There was on the sides of the room, there were electronic exercise equipment that were there.

From my understanding, I was told that most of it didn't work, and that-- but they didn't want me to touch anything electronic, whatsoever.  So, I wasn't allowed to touch the-- or be near the electronic equipment-- the a-- like a-- they had treadmills and weight lifting equipment-- but if it plugged into something or had any sort of computer, they didn't allow me to touch it.  They were concerned about that.

Defense (Coombs)

So, if it were a say a bright, sunny day and they took you to outdoor rec--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Pfc. Manning

--and if you wanted to, could you just kind of sit down on the ground, or maybe lay down on the ground, to just take in some sun?

Pfc. Manning

Definitely not.  No laying down.  I always had to be doing something, whether it was walking or moving around. If they did not-- if I was not moving around they would ask me if I wanted my rec time secured, whether I wanted to fill out a 'voluntary statement'.  I would be-- at first I thought-- but I just went with it. 

I always would walk around.  I would at least walk around in like circles, figure eights, S formations.  I made up all kinds of different shapes that I could walk around in, while I had the boot restriction or the lace restriction. 

And, then I was able to play basketball and things, but it was a lot more maneuverable with a-- and they were less concerned about me falling or getting injured in anyway without the laces [missed a word].

Defense (Coombs)

Now, were you-- on POI were you permitted to have correspondence time, where you could write to family members?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  I think it was an hour long.  It usually clashed with-- I eventually got TV privileges.  So--

Judge Lind

You got what privileges?

Pfc. Manning

Television privileges, Ma'am. 

Defense (Coombs)

So, you got-- it clashed with the TV privileges?

Pfc. Manning

Right, so there was a-- there was a period of time where it was either television or correspondence, or the combination of the two. I don't know. So, I was authorize my legal document to see and have access to legal material including some of the print-offs of discovery material, and a notebook, and I recall one pen.

Defense (Coombs)

And, were you allowed to call your family during the time that you were on POI?

Pfc. Manning

Technically yes.  There was a telephone.  I never used the telephone that they had for the regular phone calls, because there is a collect call situation. 

I don't-- I never really got the whole gist of how it worked exactly.  I was given a pin number, although, my pin number didn't work for it.  So, they would-- what it was, was there was like a telephone from like an old TV-- or not TV-- or telephone booth-- like that kind of telephone, but it was on a cart.

And, then they had a long cable that would plug into the wall in the observation room. 

And, then you would use it, and it went to a system, and you pick up the phone, and you enter your pin number and a bunch of other things, but it was only collect call out. 

And, you had to make sure that the-- that, that phone number was authorized on the list of phone numbers.  It was a complicated process, and I don't recall ever being able to call anybody, because most-- one, I had issues with the pin number.  Two, I had issues with the numbers being placed in the system. 

And, three, I was-- I was aware that most of the phone-- most cell phone companies don't accept this type of collect call. 

So, almost everybody at the facility-- and I have been told by Gunnery Sergeant Blenis that most people weren't able to make phone calls using that system, because of all those little quirks and complications with it.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you aware that the telephone calls that you were making were being recorded?

Pfc. Manning

Using those-- that-- using that phone system they would have been recorded-- I also-- there was a little bit of-- I don't really want to call my aunt and have every word scrutinized, you know, like that-- like on her end. 

So, I would tell her-- I felt it was best just to leave my aunt alone, and leave some of my friends alone in that respect.

Defense (Coombs)

During the time that-- based upon the fact they had recordings of your calls, you were able to occasionally call your aunt or call family members?

Pfc. Manning

No, the system-- not using the phone system that was available for me on those-- during off duty hours. 

I never used-- I don't recall ever being able to use that system.  They had the same phone system that we used for our attorney phone calls on-- they gave us a courtesy phone call, because some of the people were having issues with the phones that they authorized. 

There was a point with a-- would take all-- I was told that all the other detainees had this happening as well.  But, they took me out of the cell on Thanksgiving day of 2010.  I don't recall the day, I know it was a Thursday. 

But, and they took me in for-- in that area, and they asked me.  They had to check with the phone number and everything, but I made a phone call to my aunt.  It was a ten minute phone call. The guards were standing right next to me. 

And, I told her that I was good, and that I loved her and everything else.  And, then I called-- and then for Christmas eve, I was given the same opportunity for-- they called it a 'courtesy phone call'.  Again, ten minutes, and I called Tyler. 

Those were the only two phone numbers that-- I actually knew three phone numbers, including yours, sir.  But, those are the only three phone numbers that I had memorized, so.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  Now, were you allowed to have visitors at Quantico, now that you were on POI?

Pfc. Manning

I was authorized visitors.  I had to fill out paperwork to place them on the visitation list, and they had to be approved. 

So, they had to have like background checks, and things like that-- I don't know what was entailed with that, but I guess what Gunnery Sergeant Blenis-- Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, by the way, just he was my main conduit with the-- for communications through the facility, so. 

Defense (Coombs)

He was your Brig counselor?

Pfc. Manning

He was the Brig counselor, so.  He was the overall-- he was the overarching supervisor--- NCOIC of the counseling program.  There were three counselors, but he was  my assignment counselor.  He assigned himself as my counselor.

Defense (Coombs)

So, how often were you permitted to have visitors come?

Pfc. Manning

They were authorized on weekdays-- or no, weekends.  They were authorized on weekends from eleven, no from ten o'clock-- no, from twelve noon until 15 hundred. So, three hours on weekends.

Defense (Coombs)

Anytime on the weekdays?

Pfc. Manning

I think holidays-- they treated those as weekends, and I think they had a holiday schedule, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And where would these visits take place?

Pfc. Manning

These would take place in a non contact booth.  They were-- booth was-- right at the partition between the front of the facility and the rest of the facility.  So, that is where they took place.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when you were taken to see your visitors in the non-contact booth, were the restraints removed from you?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.  If it was an attorney visit again, I had one-- I sometimes had one hand removed for writing. 

Defense (Coombs)

How many hours of the day, that you are now on POI would you-- would you say that you were inside your six by eight foot cell?

Pfc. Manning

Can you just rephrase that question, sir?

Defense (Coombs)

Now that you went from suicide risk to POI, how many hours of the day do you think in general you were inside of the cell?

Pfc. Manning

Roughly the same amount.  I think I got another-- there might be an additional five minutes-- five minutes for being out, because I was given a little bit more shower time.

Defense (Coombs)

And, a little bit more rec time?

Pfc. Manning

Eventually, yes sir.

Defense (Coombs)

So, in your estimation what was the difference from your perspective of suicide risk to POI?  Can you tell Colonel Lind?

Pfc. Manning

Very little.  In terms of the effect-- there were-- there were distinctions, but I always had a guard watching me. 

I mean it was just a question of whether or not it was through the glass window or not.  And, I had some additional clothing for POI, for a period of time, so, until March of 2011.

Defense (Coombs)

So, other than that, your estimation is that it is roughly the same?

Pfc. Manning

Well, yes.  I mean the distinction is so low that I wouldn't really-- I mean it's a big-- it is sort of a big difference, in terms of from my perspective. 

I didn't have to have somebody sit right outside of my cell all the time-- directly outside of my cell.  There was at least, the appearance of them not being there, but they were still sitting there.  So, it was roughly the same.  So, it was roughly the same.  I would say ninety per cent the same.

Defense (Coombs)

And, did you know that Chief Averhart and later Chief Barnes were submitting weekly reports up through the chain of command?

Pfc. Manning

I had no idea sir, until I-- actually three weeks ago when you told me that.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you know that your counselor, Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, was filling out information for these weekly reports?

Pfc. Manning

I found out some of that information through what he put into the system and what we got the print out from the Article 138 complaint, but that was towards the January, February timeframe that I found that out.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what was the role of the Brig counselor from your perspective?

Pfc. Manning

I saw him as my conduit-- my communication person to the facility apart from the standard guard, where I always standing at parade rest and doing exactly what I am told at all times. 

I could speak to him on a-- at level.  He would relax.  He didn't wear a belt.  So, he--  All the guards wore a duty belt, and a [cuffer?] at all times. 

And, they never left that role as long as they wore a duty belt and the cap, but he didn't wear a duty belt, so he could relax, and I could relax and talk to him at level.

Defense (Coombs)

How often would you see Gunnery Sergeant Blenis? 

Pfc. Manning

I saw him at least once a week for a long period of time.  I think there was a period of time in which he went on leave, so-- and then TAD [Temporary Additional Duty] for, I don't know.  I forget. I think it is TAD for the Marines Corps, but there was a period of time in which he left, and Staff Sergeant Jordan covered down. 

He was  the Army liaison officer as well as a counselor.  So, I would speak to him in that role, but Gunnery Sergeant Blenis was the-- I think it is Master Sergeant Blenis now.  He got promoted, so.

Defense (Coombs)

And, where would you--

Pfc. Manning

[missed]

Defense (Coombs)

--that's fine.  Where would you see Master Sergeant Blenis?

Pfc. Manning

Master Sergeant Blenis would visit me in the cell at least twice a week normally to see me.  Not necessarily talk to me, but, you know, 'Are you doing okay?' 'Yes, Gunnery Sergeant Blenis' or '[missed], Gunnery Sergeant Blenis.'  And, then he would pull me out, and I would be escorted to his office.  And, I would sit in his office, and he would talk to me, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

When you were taken to his office, were your restraints removed?

Pfc. Manning

My restraints were never removed outside of that-- in that capacity, so, no.  They were not removed, so.

Defense (Coombs)

And, how long would your sessions last with then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis?

Pfc. Manning

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis.  I spoke to him between twenty minutes to-- usually at least twenty minutes to forty five minutes to [missed word]-- at most an hour.  I mean sometimes-- whenever-- whenever he was-- early on I was able to talk to him more.  So-- So it was almost an hour for the early portion.

Defense (Coombs)

And what would the two of you talk about?

Pfc. Manning

We would just banter.  I mean, I used the opportunity to have-- to talk to somebody that wasn't-- that wasn't wearing a duty belt.  So, I could talk to him as a person and not have this guard inmate relationship. 

You know, I thought-- I thought he was a fairly level person.  So, I could talk to Master Sergeant Blenis.  So, I talked to him about all kinds of stuff.  I mean, he had an interest in college sports, so.  I like college basketball, so. That was-- that was one thing that we often talked about.

Defense (Coombs)

And, based upon your interaction, what did you think of Master Sergeant Blenis?

Pfc. Manning

Master Sergeant Blenis is a very nice.  He is a very nice person.  I really like Master Sergeant Blenis.  I think he-- I think he is a-- I think he is a level headed guy-- extraordinary Marine, sir.  I have a high opinion of Master Sergeant Blenis.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you trust him?

Pfc. Manning

I did-- for a period of time-- I trusted Master Sergeant Blenis, yes.

Defense (Coombs)

During the July 2010 to December 2010 time frame, did then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis ever tell you that you were doing anything wrong?

Pfc. Manning

No, and I would-- I was always asking, you know, 'How am I doing?,' you know, 'How would you...' As you know, I like to be rated sometimes and I like to get an idea of where I am on things, you know, 'Give me an A, B, C, D,' you know. 

He would usually give me an 'A' rating for whatever I was doing. Or, sometimes I would get a percentage, but-- or points or stars, or however, you know, whichever [missed], but I was always asking what I could do, and how--

The big problem or the big issue that would always come up is my status.  You know, and during that time period I would ask him, and he would say, 'Well,' you know, 'whenever the doctors,' and he was referring to the psychiatrists, 'felt comfortable and would recommend me to come off of the prevention of injury status, then I could possibly get off of that and maybe see about,' you know, 'getting more privileges and maybe doing some work details and things.'

Defense (Coombs)

And, when do you think the earliest time period you started asking him about, you know, 'Hey, what do I need to do to get off of POI?' or 'How am I doing...?'

Pfc. Manning

Well, I mean at first I wasn't asking him to take me off of POI.  I mean that wasn't how it worked.  I would-- I would-- He would bring it up.  He would bring up, 'How's it going with' you know, 'the docs?' 

He referred to them-- Master Sergeant Blenis would refer to them as the 'docs'.  I mean I would say, 'It's Captain Hocter'  So, I don't want to degrade him or anything.  But, you know, he would always ask me how I was doing with him, sir. 

And, I would say, you know, 'Things seem to be going okay,' you know.  And, I would tell him how things were going, and I would ask him how from the facility standpoint, how he felt through-- obviously I was asking him directly how the facility was feeling about that issue. 

And, he would always-- whenever I did start asking him, which was probably around mid-September I started asking about it, because I had been on suicide watch for over two months at that point, including the time in Kuwait, and I felt that was odd and unusual. 

It didn't seem normal from my vantage point, and the guards were often-- offline talking about the fact that I was on suicide watch for a long period of time.  And they would ask me-- they kept on asking me, 'When are you getting off of...' Well it wasn't suicide watch, but, '...off of POI?'  They referred to it as just, 'suicide watch' or 'Manning Watch.'

Defense (Coombs)

And, so when you were talking with Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, you said, roughly in September time frame is when you started raising the issue of , 'When can I-- might be able to get off of this?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.  I remember my father visited me in early to mid September.  Cause I know we were talking about the-- the issue with the-- I forgot the name of the man-- the pastor in Florida that was threatening to-- to burn the Koran on September 11th. 

We were talking about that, and it hadn't happened yet, but so it was early September.  And, it was around that timeframe, because I remember that particular conversation that we were talking about when my father visited, and that is when I raised the issue about the-- well he raised the issue about the POI-- asking about, 'How it is going with the docs?'  'What are they telling you?'  and everything else.  And, that was what Master Sergeant-- that is a quote from Master Sergeant Blenis, again--

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, and so then--

Pfc. Manning

--I am referring to the 'docs'.

Defense (Coombs)

--as the months increased, and now we are going into October, November, are you still having these conversations with Gunnery Sergeant Blenis?

Pfc. Manning

Pretty consistently.  As-- I mean he would always ask about it if I didn't raise it.  He would ask about, you know, 'What are they saying?' you know, and then I started asking-- it wasn't-- there was a certain point in time. 

I don't-- I think it was October, but I started-- I started asking Captain Hocter what about, you know, why he wasn't recommending me to come off of POI. 

Because I didn't know-- I didn't ask what his recommendations were to the facility or anything like that.  He kept on saying that he was recommending me to come  off of POI, and then I-- and then I was talking to Master Sergeant Blenis about the fact that I was still on POI, and that-- he kept on asking me about why the-- he kept on saying it was the 'docs' that were recommending to him that status, and not the facility. 

So, I started to notice a discrepancy in what I was-- in the information that I was receiving, and that is whenever I became concerned.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when you started, I guess, noticing a discrepancy between what you were hearing from Captain Hocter and what you were hearing from Master Sergeant Blenis--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

--who did you raise the concern to next?

Pfc. Manning

After Master Sergeant Blenis?  I raised it with you in particular. 

Defense (Coombs)

And, how did you do that?

Pfc. Manning

Well I mean, I just said-- I explained that there was this-- I explained to you that there was this odd-- because there was this discrepancy with Captain Hocter-- I would talk to him-- I mean, at least once a week as well as Master Sergeant Blenis once a week. 

And, I really wanted to get off of this status.  I mean didn't feel it was-- I know I am not a doctor or anything, but I just-- I wanted to get off of this restrictive status, and  at least be allowed to use, you know, sleep on, you know, sheet-- sheets-- with sheets and blanket, and everything else-- and have soap in my cell, and things like that. 

Those were things-- those were high priority in my mind, in terms of improving my quality of life.  So, I wanted-- that was a goal that had I set myself.  And, I wanted to figure out how to achieve that goal.  And, yes I raise it with you in particular, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what were you hearing from your legal counsel about that?

Pfc. Manning

There was various different options, and things like that.  And, I was hesitant because you know, I was sort of scared but-- I didn't want to sound like I am complaining, or anything like that. 

I don't like to sound like I am quote 'whining' unquote, you know.  And, I didn't want to come off that way, so I informally-- I remember you stated-- I remember you stating-- you saying that you-- cause there were possible routes, but I still wanted to see, you know, if I could get, you know, the doctor, Captain Hocter, and the facility commander-- as I understood, who had that eventual-- eventual role of making that determination for POI status. 

As I understood it in that way, try to get at them to meet in the middle somewhere and allow me to change status.  So, I thought I could get that by, you know, by just informally, you know, asking them, 'Hey, what do I need to do?' and things like that.

Defense (Coombs)

And what was Gunnery Sergeant Blenis telling you, you were doing wrong at that point [missed two words]?

Pfc. Manning

Well, nothing.  He didn't have any disciplinary-- in terms of disciplinary issues and things like that, he didn't raise any thing else.  I have-- He just-- He kept on asking about, and this is a quote, you know, 'What are you saying to the docs?'  I mean, 'Why? What is going on with the docs and with your status and everything else?' 

So, you know, he didn't give-- I mean he said that I was doing great.  One quote that Master Sergeant Blenis would often use was, 'I wish I had a hundred Mannings.'  You know, 'You're great,' you know, 'You're not a disciplinary issue.  You're not,' you know, from his perspective-- from his personal perspective, '...a flight risk,' or anything like that, so.  He didn't-- He didn't-- I didn't get the vibe that he understood what was going on either.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so during this time period.  How often were you seeing Captain Hocter?

Pfc. Manning

I think it was once a week at that point if not.  I think at most one every three to five days. 

Defense (Coombs)

And, where were your-- how long were your visits with Captain Hocter?

Pfc. Manning

At least-- they were usually an hour long-- sometimes more, because of that.  I wanted to talk to somebody, so I could have someone to interact with, and I told him-- I said-- I could say to Captain Hocter in particular, 'I realize that you have other patients, and you have other issues to deal with.  You have family.'  He kept on saying he had a large family.  He wouldn't specify whether it was kids or not, but I knew that he wanted to be with his family, and I-- but I just wanted somebody to talk to, and somebody to talk to that had a level where we could talk, as opposed to again the subordinate, you know, detainee/guard relationship.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when you were talking with Captain Hocter, again what were your conversations about?

Pfc. Manning

In general, we would just start with current events.  Because, I am a current events guy.  I like to know-- it's what really grounds me in what is going on in the world, you know. 

I remember the oil spill had finally been cleared up at one point in the Gulf.  They finally stopped that, you know it was like a-- it is just things like that-- you know, that ground-- you know, from my perspective-- you know, where the world is and everything else.  It makes-- the big world, as opposed to my little cell, you know-- worry about the much broader world, sir.  I mean I'm sort of forgetting what the question was.

Defense (Coombs)

No, that's fine.  What did you-- when you were with Captain Hocter, did you ever raise the issue of what Master Sergeant Blenis was telling you?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  I would be like, 'Well the counselor is saying that'-- and, I told him that the counselor kept on saying that he was making-- then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, Master Sergeant Blenis, was saying-- 'kept asking about your recommendations,' and I said-- and I kept on asking him, 'Well, why are you recommending me to stay on POI?'  and he'd be like, 'I am not recommending you to stay on POI,' prevention of injury.  And, then I wasn't sure who was telling the truth or where the information was.-- where the discrepancy was.   

Defense (Coombs)

So, at that point you were not sure if you could trust Captain Hocter or Gunnery Sergeant Blenis?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I thought-- I thought Captain Hocter being-- I don't-- I don't-- you know, I was in a cell all day, so my mind wandered, and things like that. 

But, I started wondering of Captain Hocter was telling the truth about his recommendations-- whether or not he was just trying to keep me feeling good about myself.

Defense (Coombs)

Between July 2010 and December of 2010 what was your life like, if you could describe it for the Judge, overall quality of life?

Pfc. Manning

Between? Can you repeat those time periods?

Defense (Coombs)

July 2010 to December 2010.

Pfc. Manning

Okay, so.  It was-- I would say at first, it was a big improvement to arrive in-- in-- stateside-- big huge. 

I felt great about being there, you know. I have a-- you know, the things I took for granted down range, you know-- or that I took for granted stateside before going downrange and coming back-- or [missed word] there again-- running water and air conditioning and things like that. 

But, then-- then it started to-- as I was there longer-- and started to drain on me.  I was getting more and more tired-- And, you know, I had access to my family now at this point, and access to some idea of what was going on in the world. 

So, I started to-- I started to feel more-- like I was outside-- I started to feel like I was mentally going back into sort of Kuwait mode and that, that-- that lonely, you know-- dark black hole of a place, you know-- mentally I mean.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you ever go back to that place?

Pfc. Manning

No, I did not.  I fought every inch to avoid the event horizon of that and accomplished that I think.

Defense (Coombs)

How difficult of that time was it for you?

Pfc. Manning

Being in a...?

Defense (Coombs)

Just having that struggle, how difficult was that for you?

Pfc. Manning

It was easier over time, sir. Before-- before the 2011 threshold. 

So, by-- by Christmas time I was feeling a little bit better.  Just, I mean-- I mean, I am not a big fan of that timeframe just cause it is the solstice and its really dark and I like the light-- or like sunshine and things like that, sir. 

I am not a big fan of winter but that is why I don't really like that timeframe, but. 

But, you know, I wasn't getting depressed or anything.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  Do you recall Captain Hocter placing you on POI during that timeframe because he was worried about you getting depressed?

Pfc. Manning

I was-- something about-- I mean, I know you testified yesterday about that-- there was the twitter incident, as one of the-- as the DBS [Duty Brig Supervisor] referred to it at the time. 

He asked me if I was alive-- [missed a few words] and he was like, 'Oh yeah, there is a report on twitter that you're dead.'  I was like, 'I am not dead' to the Duty Brig Supervisor at the time. 

And then he left, and I then I think it was a couple days later that Captain Hocter brought it up, but he had-- I don't know-- I don't know when I was placed on POI before that, but I just kind of chuckled that after I found out more information about that report or whatever it was-- and I didn't hear about it or anything. 

I knew that they had taken away TV privileges, but they often would change-- they would often change the schedule, so that way I couldn't see current events programs or watch news and things like that. 

I always tried to-- to figure out how I can get the-- get the news type programs on-- things like that, you know-- in terms of the schedule-- and schedule of calls and things, but they would avoid me watching, you know, those types of shows, sir. 

And, they-- they-- they just plain removed the television at that point, and I was-- I wasn't happy about that, but I thought it was for a completely different reason. 

I thought is was just a total misunderstanding on their part about me having access to a TV,

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  Now let's talk about some of the behavior that the Brig apparently documented of yours.  And, I want from your perspective to tell the Judge why you were doing it and what you were thinking.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

You were observed sword fighting imaginary characters in your cell.  Do you recall that?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I mean I certainly do something that looks like that on occasion.

Defense (Coombs)

And, why were you doing that?

Pfc. Manning

Again, just bored, you know there is not a lot going on.  There is not a lot to do. 

And, I know that the-- I knew that the guard was watching, so I didn't-- if he didn't have a problem with it in terms of opening-- in terms of opening the door and, you know, coming out and poking his head out and saying, 'Stop doing that,' then I didn't-- then it usually wasn't an issue.  I didn't-- from my-- from my vantage point. 

But, I admit it.  I could do things that look like that.  I mean, from my-- I don't know-- I don't know if I was imagining that I was sword fighting, but I certainly did actions that looked like that.

Defense (Coombs)

What about being observed lifting imaginary weights in your cell and displaying actual strain and exertion when you are doing that?

Pfc. Manning

Well, if you do it a lot, I mean, I think that is resistance training.  I have no idea if that is what it is or not.  I mean I don't know-- I don't know when that was-- that particular incident was-- if there was an incident report or anything.  But, for that, I haven't seen it. But a--

Defense (Coombs)

--were you ever told by the guards to stop doing that?

Pfc. Manning

No.  I was asked-- I remember Gunnery Sergeant-- then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis stated something to that effect and I explained it to him, but nothing was ever brought up with that.

Defense (Coombs)

What about staring in the mirror and making faces at yourself?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  The most entertaining thing in there was the mirror. [laughs] It interacts with-- you can interact with yourself in there.  So, I spent-- I spent quite a lot of time at the mirror.

Defense (Coombs)

And, again why were you doing that?

Pfc. Manning

Boredom.  Just sheer, complete, out of my mind boredom.

Defense (Coombs)

There also is a report of you being observed licking the bars of your cell while you were apparently sleepwalking. Do you recall that?

Pfc. Manning

I have no idea what that is about.  I don't. 

But, again, I don't know if you have an incident report on that.  I haven't seen any discovery or anything.  I have seen references to it. 

I don't have any specific knowledge to something of that effect, but I do recall sort of similar along those lines I guess, not sleep walking but-- television call on weekends was usually extended an hour after taps. 

So, you still had access to the TV, and sometimes I would watch TV after lights out.  So, I would have the TV there at a low volume.  So, that way it doesn't keep people awake. 

If that was authorized, and I was taking-- again-- I don't remember if it was clonazepam or Klonopin-- which one of those it was-- but I was taking that and it would make me drowsy. 

So, I remember there is a-- the bars are cross thatched.  They are a thatched iron bar type thing, so I would have to put my face close up to the-- to the grating to see the TV, and sometimes I would doze off while I was doing it. 

And, I remember it looked like I was-- I remember Corporal-- it Corporal Sanders that stopped me at one point, and he said that, 'Don't eat the bars!' you know, 'They are not eatable.' 

He said something to that effect. So, I stepped away from-- so I leaned back and I went away from the bars.  I don't know anything about that-- I don't know if they are the same incident at all, sir.  I speculate.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, then there was another incident of you playing peek-a-boo with yourself in the cell mirror or you also playing peek-a-boo with the guards in the observation booth.  Do you recall that?

Pfc. Manning

I was never told anything about that except by Master Sergeant Blenis after the fact, and then I said, you know, I am not-- I realize that-- I do things in the mirror don't always look-- I mean, I don't know how it looks but, the mirror was  the only interactive entertainment thing, sir. 

It wasn't like I was seeing somebody else in the mirror or anything like that. [laughs]  It is clearly me. 

Sometimes I'd make funny faces just to-- just to do something in front of the mirror.  I don't know if that's-- I don't know if I was playing peek-a-boo with myself, but I was certainly would, you know, look different angles at, you know, my face and things in terms of shaving and also other stuff-- and you know just general care and wear and tear, and looking at myself in the mirror, because there is not a lot else to do.

Defense (Coombs)

Did any of the guards ever express any concern directly to you about any of this behavior?

Pfc. Manning

Nothing specific.  If there was something-- if I was doing something that concerned them, they would usually open the door immediately, and-- and come out, like it was-- like there was a fire going on-- or something like that.  And, there-- those particular incidences weren't the same.  I don't recall those.  They didn't tell me about those until after the fact.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, starting in December timeframe, did you start to complain more about your confinement conditions?

Pfc. Manning

I did.  In early December it was still informal.  So, I was-- I was-- I started to voice my concerns with Master Sergeant Blenis. 

I would-- I would be like, 'I don't understand where this discrepancy is,' and I voiced the concern to Captain Hocter as well, who would usually advise me, because he didn't feel like-- he didn't feel like the facility was going to listen his recommendations.  At least, that is what he conveyed to me in these sessions.

He didn't feel like the facility trusted him.  But-- So I complained more with-- with-- through Master Sergeant Blenis, and I don't recall if I ever brought it up with Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart. 

But, I did ask about it at point in time in early December through then Master Sergeant Blenis. 

Defense (Coombs)

[I believe I missed a question.]

Pfc. Manning

Yes, Master Sergeant Papakie.  Whenever he did the rounds, he let me relax once, sir.  That is the opportunity.  When you are standing at parade rest, you are not really allowed to say anything.  Whatever they tell you to relax, you can speak slightly a bit more freely. 

So, I used that opportunity to raise my concern about it.  I didn't put in-- what's called a-- they refer to it as a-- as a 'chit'. 

It's a-- it's a Department of Defense Form 5-10, which is-- is a way that you convey communications apart from those through your counselor. 

I filled out one of those forms.  I gave it to the guard.  I don't recall who it was.  I think it was Corporal Miller.  Again, I am guessing. 

And, I gave him a- a chit, as they call it.  And, a-- it was a general complaint about, you know, being on prevention of injury status. 

I don't recall anything ever coming back on that.  So, as I-- this, discussion with you-- and towards the end of December and early January I put in another one. This time to the facility commander-- and that staffing level as opposed to, you know, just a through the counselors. 

So, I went up to the-- this one went through-- and I was worried that they might have lost the other one.  So, I made a secondary copy.  I wrote 'copy' and I wrote the exact same thing.  I put 'copy' and I initialed it.  It's in a box with Captain Tooman somewhere.  I don't think that was part of anything-- to discovery or anything.

Defense (Coombs)

So, these 5-10's, what were you using these for?

Pfc. Manning

I put it in.  So, that way I could convey to the commander the thought, and I looked into the rules and regulations of the facility about C&A [Classification and Assignment] board and everything else. 

And, I-- I specifically requested for-- to have a C&A board, or for one to convene, or for-- or for me to be in one.  I don't remember the exact wording of it. 

But, I put it into-- I made sure that it went into the commander-- with two mailboxes on a cart.  That were-- and I made sure that were brought in, and I physically put it in myself through the feed tray while Lance Corporal Miller-- not Lance Corporal Miller-- Lance Corporal Bell was the guard that brought it in. 

And, that was the-- that was like early January.  It was like the 5th of January or 6th or 7th.  Somewhere around that timeframe.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  Do you recall also filing with my assistance an RCM [Rules for Court Martial] 305(g) request to Col. Coffman [the Special Convening Authority] on 13 January [2011]? 

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.  That was a week and a half after I put in that-- that commander request.  I didn't receive anything back on it. 

So, we went to the next administrative-- I mean, exhausting, in terms of exhausting administrative remedies.  We went to the next one.  And, that was-- that was the chain of-- that was the chain of command on the Army side.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what did you ask Colonel Coffman [Special Court Martial Convening Authority ] to do?

Pfc. Manning

I-- through counsel-- through you, sir, I asked him to review-- at least review my confinement conditions and see if they were necessary and if there-- there could override-- I don't recall the exact phrasing of the-- of the document, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, did you receive a response from Colonel Coffman?

Pfc. Manning

Through, again, you.  You conveyed to me that there was a response. 

Defense (Coombs)

And, what was the response?

Pfc. Manning

The response was that-- that it was either non-necessary or that a cursory look into it was appropriate and they found that this was proper.

Defense (Coombs)

Do you recall filing with my assistance an Article 138 complaint on 19 January 2011?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.  I also recall that it was the same day as command visit in which I-- it might have been the same day that I had a command visit with Captain Casamatta, and raised up the issue of the fact that my 5-10's were not getting returned or answered to Captain Casamatta.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what issues were you concerned-- raising in your Article 138 complaint, in general?

Pfc. Manning

In general, just the confinement condition that I was under, and the fact that I felt that, you know, given what I was-- given the information that I had I felt that there was a discrepancy between the-- through you, you know the-- but in my opinion there was a discrepancy between the mental health professionals and Captain Hocter along with Colonel Malone-- [missed word] Colonel Malone and what they-- what they saw, as opposed to what the commander was doing, and I felt it was being done improperly.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, you indicated that you started to research and you made a 5-10 request to go to a C&A board?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, Sir.

Defense (Coombs)

When was the first time you went to a Classification & Assignment board?

Pfc. Manning

I don't remember the exact date, but it was a week or two after all this. 

So, after the command visit.  I remember there was a-- I was slated for a C&A board.  It was an end of January 2011.

Defense (Coombs)

And, how did you find out about your ability to go to this board?

Pfc. Manning

It is in the rules and regulations for the facility.  I knew that they-- I knew that-- I didn't-- I don't remember if-- if it is stated-- stated in the rules and regulations how often it occurred, but I felt like I-- I realized that I had the opportunity to ask for one if I felt it was necessary.

Defense (Coombs)

And, did you appear before the board?

Pfc. Manning

I did, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, who was at the board to the best of your recollection?

Pfc. Manning

Gunnery Sergeant-- then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, Gunnery Sergeant Fuller, and another Staff Sergeant NCO.  I don't recall exactly who it was.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when you got in from to of the board, what happened?

Pfc. Manning

[Missed a few words]  I was in full restraints.  I was put into the conference room-- the same room where I would talk to the mental health counselors. 

And, I sat down, and then they said that, 'The C&A board is convened, you have the floor, detainee Manning.' 

Well, I reported in first.  So, 'I-- I detainee Manning, my number.'  My number at the time '10075 reporting, Gunnery Sergeant.'

Defense (Coombs)

And then once they said, 'You have the floor,' what happened?

Pfc. Manning

They sat me.  Well, I sat down.  I didn't-- I was like, 'Okay. I don't know how this works.'  I mean I-- that was the first thing I said.  'I don't know how this works'...in terms of the formality of the board. 

They said, 'Just say what you feel about how you are confined-- confinement classification. You asked to meet here,' and then I ended up asking a lot of questions.

Defense (Coombs)

What questions were you asking?

Pfc. Manning

I realized that it was more of an adversarial thing.  That they-- that they had-- that they had their conclusion among themselves in terms of the fact that I was staying on to POI status, and that it was my job to argue against that. 

So, I ended up asking questions, because I didn't know-- I didn't-- I didn't know what I didn't know.  So-- so I asked them, you know, what their feelings on the recommendations were, and how they were being met, and how processed worked to Gunnery Sergeant Fuller particularly.  He was the most vocal out of the answering.

Defense (Coombs)

And, did they respond to your questions?

Pfc. Manning

They did.  I asked about how the process worked from their vantage point.  They explained to me about the recommendations-- that they make recommendations to the commander. 

That those recommendations are based on information that they received through either the mental health professional, the-- the behavior reports, the watch's' logs, and all sorts of other stuff. 

I don't recall the exact, you know, quotes or anything.  Just a lot of the-- 'We use...' and I am quoting Gunnery Sergeant Fuller, 'We use a lot of different information points to put a picture together and recommend it to Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart, and he-- and we only make a recommendation. 

'We don't-- and,' you know, 'everyone else only makes recommendations, but it is his final authority.'  And, that was the way it was explained to me. 

So, then I tried to swing them into recommending me to be off POI, but they, you know-- I wasn't prepared, because I didn't have any proof, and they wanted-- they wanted evidence.  

They kept on saying that, 'We want evidence that you are not a harm to yourself, beyond' you know, 'you saying that you are not going to harm yourself.'

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  After this first board, do you-- Well, actually-- as part of this first board do you recall one of the board members asking you about your intake statement, 'Always planning, never acting'?

Pfc. Manning

There was a heavy focus on that, and I didn't realize-- I didn't-- I hadn't remembered that-- that statement was put down on there on that form. 

I mean, I remember thinking-- cause I mean during the time whenever I went through it-- I mean, it was all fuzzy and I was-- and I had just arrived from Kuwait and everything else also, and I was filling out all this paperwork and everything else. 

You know, I remember being told, you know-- you had to fill something out.  And, I didn't-- and I explained that.  I conveyed that-- that story to Gunnery Sergeant Fuller and so he's like, 'So you-- So you lied?!' 

And I-- and I was like, 'I don't-- I don't know if it's a false statement.  I don't know.  I was told to put something down, and I put something down without really thinking about it.  That felt-- it just--- I mean, I felt like whatever I-- whatever I put down there didn't matter anyway, cause I was going on suicide risk anyway, sir.'

Defense (Coombs)

And what--

Pfc. Manning

--and, I explained that to Gunnery Sergeant Fuller and-- and so he was-- it becomes-- it became an inquisition about whether I meant it-- whether I could be trusted with anything I said ever based upon that-- that confusion.

Defense (Coombs)

Do you recall as part of that kind of inquisition, Gunnery Sergeant Fuller saying, 'Well if we can't trust you are telling the truth at that time, you said something false, how can we trust that you are telling the truth now...'

Pfc. Manning

Correct.

Defense (Coombs)

'...when you are saying that you are not going to harm yourself?'

Pfc. Manning

Correct.  And, you know, I'm like, 'Well, I don't know.  I don't know how you do that.  I don't know how you leave that out.  From my vantage point, you know I'm-- I'm the-- I'm the-- I'm the detainee.  I mean there's not-- there is not a lot that I can do from my vantage point.'  And, that I understood from that-- from that-- from that perspective. 

You know, it was-- I just kept-- I mean, it just felt weird because it was-- it was-- it felt so long ago that that-- that that was.  And, that was brought up. 

And, that was so long ago.  And, I was like, 'Well, what about now?'  And then-- and then it went and it kept on coming back and forth to, 'Well if we can't trust you then, how can we trust you now?' 

It was just very-- it was just a very unsettling and adversarial moment.  I felt-- I felt like I was sort of put on the spot and being interrogated at that point.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, aside from this one time when the C&A board quizzed you about this statement, did-- did anyone else come up and talk to you about this statement? 

Pfc. Manning

Before that?

Defense (Coombs)

Right.

Pfc. Manning

Not to my recollection.  I don't recall that-- I don't recall Master Sergeant Blenis raising it as an issue. 

I don't recall Chief Warrant Officer Averhart Four raising it as an issue.  I didn't-- I spoke to him very-- at the point in time, I spoke to him very rarely. 

And, Captain Hocter never said anything about it.  So, those were the people-- those were the people that I talked to about these types of issues, and Colonel Malone, and they never really raised that. 

That was the first time that, that-- that, that moment ever really popped up, and I remembered, 'Oh, yeah.  I [missed word] that day.  That did happen,' you know.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, how many times did you appear in front of the C&A board?

Pfc. Manning

There was-- they was another two times after that.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when generally from your memory, when was the second time?

Pfc. Manning

The second time was as soon as I got the results from the Article 138 complaint-- the justifications and I mean, basically, like-- sort of like a discovery packet. 

It was attached to it with enclosures and things along with the actual response. Like the justifications of the response.  And, I looked through it, and, you know, it just didn't, they would-- they would-- I felt like, you know, again, I am not an attorney.  I felt like they just quote [missed word], like the raw data from-- there was a lot of these different reports from-- I remember there was-- I remember going through this list of different things, like, 'Oh, he's'...you know...'Oh he is doing well.' You know...'being respectful courteous.'  There was just a list of different notes that Master Sergeant Blenis had made, and I just didn't-- I just didn't see anything adding up from my vantage point in there. 

So, I-- So I went in with-- armed with those documents.  They allowed me to bring those in.  And, I felt like...I felt like, 'Oh, well now that I have--' you know, 'now that I have this evidence,' you know, 'I am going to be able to-- I am going to be able to persuade the C&A board.'  I felt pretty confident about that.

Defense (Coombs)

So, how did you use this evidence, the next time you went in front of the C&A board?

Pfc. Manning

Well I came through-- I remember I started reading through it verbatim-- through them, you know-- through all the-- through all the points, including the-- including the ones-- ones that, you know-- that weren't necessarily, you know-- completely [missed word] all that way. 

I don't recall exactly which ones they were or anything like that, but, you know, I read through them verbatim, and Gunnery Sergeant Fuller stopped me and, you know, asked me what I was doing, and I said, you know, 'I'm just-- I'm just reading through what I,' you know, 'with the things that,' you know-- and Gunnery Sergeant Blenis-- Master Sergeant Blenis was also on this board, so, you know, Master Sergeant Blenis or Gunnery Sergeant Blenis-- quote 'Gunnery Sergeant Blenis' unquote was saying in these-- in these reports or in these counseling notes and, you know, I was just trying to-- and I was just trying to convey to him that the-- I feel that those-- that, that could be justifications and such given that I didn't have the notes from Captain Hocter. 

I said you know, 'I am pretty sure that Captain Hocter can back that up as well, and say that I am being respectful, and being courteous, and trying everything that I can to get off of this status.'  I mean it is the only focus, at that-- at that time it was the only focus that I really had to [missed word]-- there was nothing going on with the case or anything.  So, that was my focus was-- was just trying to improve my status.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when you were using Gunnery Sergeant Blenis' own assessments of you--

Pfc. Manning

--Right.

Defense (Coombs)

--at the board did you get a sense that, that was persuasive at all to the members?

Pfc. Manning

Ah, no. 

That was whenever I realized that the-- the-- that they weren't-- that they had already read these things.  They already have these documents. 

I wasn't sure if it was just Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart answering those, and the C&A board not being privy to them. 

I mean I knew that the counseling notes that Gunnery Sergeant Blenis-- I didn't know what information they looked at a part from data points and all this other stuff. 

I didn't know what specific documents they were looking at there, but I felt that these were-- they were convincing. 

I felt like I could convince someone with them.  But, they-- they had already seen them and, you know, it was just sort of-- then they returned back to the-- to-- I remember they raised that-- that question again at the intake-- the once-- the once, because I was asked three times. 

You know, 'You were asked-- you were asked three times about whether you wanted to commit suicide.  Two verbally and one written, and on the written one you wrote down, 'Always planning, always-- always--'

Defense (Coombs)

--'planning, never...'

Pfc. Manning

'Always planning, never acting,' you know, and-- and I remember being like, 'Well I said no.  I am not suicidal.'  And  then they are like, 'Well, there is a discrepancy so that-- so we are not sure if we can trust you.' 

Defense (Coombs)

Now, after this did you-- you said you went a third time, what was your experience like the third time you went in front of the board?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I mean I was-- I was-- I went in with the same sort of-- I don't recall-- I think it was a couple weeks after that, because I felt like I wanted to simmer-- let that simmer down because the-- because these boards were quite heated. 

They got pretty heated on their end, and so I felt-- you know, I felt sort of taken aback.  I mean I was more prepared the second time, but I still felt in the end I was getting-- I felt in the end it ended up being like an interrogation over the question-- over the question on the piece of paper and then, you know. 

I kept on trying to drive it out of there, but it kept on coming back to that.  So, I came to the third time, and, you know, I was like, you know, I don't really have-- I mean, I don't really have anything more other than I have another two weeks where I haven't had a disciplinary issue or anything. 

I know that there was-- this was after the January [missed word] incident and you know-- I had Captain Hocter and Colonel Malone say that I was good to go on those.  So, I didn't see-- I didn't see a continued issue of that on my end of course.  And, I tried to convey that. 

And, they didn't want to hear it.  They told me that unless I had anything that-- that was new or that they hadn't heard before then, you know, then it was just a waste of time. 

And, they didn't-- they didn't describe it as that, but-- but I mean that was the general feeling that I got back from them.

Defense (Coombs)

So, after that time period, did you ever request to appear before a board again?

Pfc. Manning

No.  I did not, sir.  At that point in time, I felt that like it was weighted against me. 

I felt like they were merely looking for things to justify their decision that they had already made.  So, they had already made the decision coming in. 

Everybody-- and this is the way I felt-- was that they would come and have the board.  They would meet, and then, they would look-- and then they would look for things that would justify their action, and ignore all the other things that I would talk about. 

And, only focus on the things that-- that helped justify their position.  So, I felt like having to go to these things was fruitless and pointless. 

So, I went through the-- back to the legal channels and the Article 138 complaint and et cetera.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  Now, before we go into the next area I want to cover, I would like to go ahead and take a break.  I've been told that we need at least fifteen minutes.  So, your Honor--

Pfc. Manning

--about.

Defense (Coombs)

--can we have a fifteen minute break?

Judge Lind

Alright.  Any objection from the Government?

Prosecution (Fein)

No, your Honor.

Judge Lind

Alright.  Court is in recess until 10 minutes after 17 hundred, or five o'clock.

ALL RISE

ALL RISE

Judge Lind

Please be seated. This Article 39(a) Session is called to order.  Let the record reflect all parties present when the Court last recessed are again present in Court.  Mr. Coombs?

Defense (Coombs)

Thank you, your Honor.  Pfc. Manning I remind you again you are under oath, okay? 

Now I am gonna ask you a few questions about an incident on 18 January 2011.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Let's talk about how that day began.  Did you notice any difference in the demeanor of the guards that day?

Pfc. Manning

From around-- yes, I did.  From around the latter part of the morning, so from-- usually there is a lull in activity from zero seven to zero nine until like the duty hours come in.  There's a lull in activity.  By the time the activities are buzzing around at the facility, people started coming in-- guards that were just watching us-- or watching me.  The vibe had changed among the guards that were there at the time.

Defense (Coombs)

How so?

Pfc. Manning

There demeanor was more-- just generally more anxious and more irritable.  I don't know what-- I don't know what was going on or what was causing it, but and I didn't-- I mean I didn't-- I wasn't in a position to ask or anything, but I know-- I mean I definitely noticed a change in-- I mean sometimes whenever there's like an incident going on I usually know what-- usually infer or figure out what was going on, but I had no idea. 

It's just-- everybody felt-- I mean and I assumed that it was something not to do with...I just assumed that morning-- if I remember that morning correctly I just remember-- I remember not know what it was that was causing this change, but there was definitely a strong significant difference in their...in their demeanor from zero nine to 11 was whenever I really started to notice the difference, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  Let's go to your rec hall.  Did you notice a change when the guards came to get you for your recreation call?

Pfc. Manning

Ah, yes.

Defense (Coombs)

What time was this?

Pfc. Manning

I don't-- I don't remember what time this was.  I think it was early afternoon.

Defense (Coombs)

And what did you notice different about the guards when they came to get you?

Pfc. Manning

They were a lot more-- they had a irritated voice through their Marine Corps demeanor.  I could sense that there was some-- and I thought they were-- I thought they were angry at me. 

I though there was sort of-- maybe it wasn't-- I mean, maybe it wasn't directed toward me, but there was like a general anger behind them that they were gonna take out on me.

Defense (Coombs)

Who are the guards?

Pfc. Manning

One of them that I remember was Lance Corporal Tankersly and I don't remember if he is Corporal or not, but I think he got promoted to Corporal eventually, but Corporal Cline.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when you were taken out of your cell, what if anything happened that caused you to be concerned?

Pfc. Manning

Well, first they started-- they-- they-- they came in-- they came to my cell, and they were like, 'Do you want rec hall?' You know, I am like, 'Yeah.'  And I stand at the front of the cell and say, 'Yes Lance Corporal.  Yes, Corporal. I wish to proceed with my recreation call.' 

And, it's like, you know-- you know, 'Stand by for...'-- you know, 'Stand by for recreation.' 'Stand by for your recreation call.'  It was just a change in their voice.

And then this continued as they were putting restraints on me.  They-- they put me on-- on-- I put myself on the rack, and they were like-- and then they said, 'Put your head against the rack...' or '...put your head against the wall.'

And, then they put the restraints on me, and they just-- It was just a general change in the demeanor.  They put it tightened.  They put their leg irons slightly tighter than normal.  And, I asked them, you know, 'Are you...?' you know, I remember asking them if they were irritated or if I was doing something wrong or something like that-- to them, as they were putting me into the restraints, and--

Defense (Coombs)

Did--

Pfc. Manning

--they didn't respond to me.

Defense (Coombs)

Did the guards ever give you any inconsistent orders or correctors?

Pfc. Manning

No, not at this time.  They were still giving consistent orders, but they-- they [missed a few words] tighter. 

We then-- they transferred me to the recreation area.  So, that's about a thirty meter walk to the recreation area.  I am guessing the distance.  It just felt-- it felt like thirty meters. 

And, then we go to the recreation area.  There is usually a chair where they set me down, so that they can put me on there. And they told me to face left, and I faced-- faced left.  And, they told me-- I had another person tell me to face right. 

There were another two-- if I remember-- it felt like there were like four guards there.  As opposed to the normal-- as opposed to the normal number of two to three.  It felt like there was four along with GM 2 [Gunner's Mate 2nd Class] Webb, who is the NCO.

Defense (Coombs)

Did they ever say and correct you for not saying their rank in response to a direct order?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, because I-- as I-- as I am speaking with one person I am saying, you know, 'Yes, Lance Corporal' or 'Aye, Lance Corporal,' you know, changing between-- because in the Marine Corps and in the Navy, 'Aye' is a response for whenever you're given a command, and you're-- you're told to execute, you say, 'Aye.' 

You know, 'I am going to execute.'  'Aye, Lance Corporal.'  'Aye, Sir.' 

And, then for receiving instruction-- not necessarily receiving an instruction, but for receiving to understand something you say, 'Yes.' 

So as I am being told these different things, I am trying to respond to them, and I am being given all these conflicting things so I start to--  So, I start to panic a little bit, because I don't know-- I don't know what's about to happen. 

And I-- they've-- they've-- they've never really acted like-- I never had the guards act like that before, except for whenever I was put into the intake process they were-- for the-- I call it a 'shark attack' again, you know, basic training style-- you know, everything you do is wrong no matter what, because you have different people giving you conflicting orders, and you just execute as much as you can.

Defense (Coombs)

During this time do you recall becoming anxious and lightheaded?

Pfc. Manning

I did.  I became anxious as they were taking off the restraints, and giving me the different instructions.  I asked them if, you know-- I asked them to stop. 

I didn't-- I mean, I might have-- I might have actually said, 'Please...'-- instead of, 'Please stop.'  I might have said actually, 'Stop.' 

But, you know I was-- I just wanted them to slow down a little bit, because and allow me to-- to catch my breath and understand, you know-- but they continued at it and then I-- as soon as they were removed me from final restraints and then they give me more turn orders, I, you know, I began to fall. 

And, I remember GM 2 Webb in particular came at me, as I was about to fall and I thought-- and you know, I am not-- this was just my panic reaction.  I thought maybe that with the irritation and everything and the fact that-- I thought I was going to be attacked or assaulted or something like that. 

I mean as silly as it sounds, and in retrospect, but, you know, they didn't do anything.  I thought he was just coming at me.  He was just coming to-- to make sure I didn't fall, but my instant reaction was to get away from GM 2 Webb, who is a bigger guy. 

So, I wanted to get away from this large person coming at me at a high rate of speed.  And, I am not feeling very-- my judgment was not perfect at that time. 

So, you know, I just got away and I got emotional, and I didn't-- I didn't want-- I didn't want them to come, you know, rush me out with riot gear and stuff, so I-- I said, 'Please stop,' you know, 'I am not doing anything. 

I am trying to cooperate as much as I can,' and I think I-- I think at that point I stopped and I got a little bit emotional, but they said, 'We're gonna get somebody here to talk to you.'  I think-- 'We're gonna get somebody here,' I remember GM 2 Webb trying to calm me down, and get this situation under control.

Defense (Coombs)

And so, once-- once GM 2 Webb was calming you down--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

--what happened next?

Pfc. Manning

A number of-- of enlisted-- a large number of enlisted personnel from the facility entered in. I don't recall exactly who. 

And, then Gunnery Sergeant Fuller, the Security NCOI-- NCO of the facility.  I don't recall his exact-- the exact title.  But, he usually dealt with security and operations. 

He came and talked to me, and got up-- and I explained to him what had happened and what was going on.  And, then he-- and then he said, you know 'We are gonna take care of it, and we are going to take care of you.  Is there anything else you need?  Do you need to talk to anybody?  Do you need to talk to one of the...one of the [MD?]'  Their term 'docs' again.  'Would you like to speak with anybody?' 

I said, 'No, I just-- I just,' you know, 'I just wanted-- I just wanted them,' and I explained that, you know, 'I felt like they were being rough with me.'  Maybe not intentionally or not, but, you know, I just felt like I was being roughed around a little bit in terms of the 'shark attack' [missed a few words], sir. 

I wanted to continue on with my rec as normal, and they allowed me to do that, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when you continued on with your rec as normal did you have any other issues during rec hall?

Pfc. Manning

I did not, sir.  I thought-- I thought everything had been dealt with at that point.

Defense (Coombs)

And then, after rec hall where did you go?

Pfc. Manning

They took me back.  It was different-- there were two different guards I remember.  GM 2 Webb was still the--- the DBS [Duty Brig Supervisor] at the time, but they transferred me back to my cell, and I returned back to my cell.

Defense (Coombs)

So, when you say two different guards, they replaced Lance Corporal Tankersly and Cline?

Pfc. Manning

I don't know if-- they change guards out pretty frequently, so don't know-- I mean sometimes they don't, sometimes they do, you know, I am not privy to that. 

So, I don't know who, did what or why.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  So when you got back to your cell, what did you do?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I went back to sitting in my usual spot.

Defense (Coombs)

And, then what happened?

Pfc. Manning

There was a lot more activity going around.  In terms of NCO's walking by, going to the observation booth and things. 

I mean I didn't think to much of it, apart from, you know, that there was a buzz of activity-- of increased activity.  There were guards started to trickle into the special quarters area and-- and it was really quiet, but there was a lot of whispering and low voices and things-- a lot of weird things happening. 

But, a lot of weird things happened all the time here [laughs], so I didn't think to much of it.

Defense (Coombs)

Did Chief CW4 Averhart ever come to your cell?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  I don't recall how long afterwards-- after that it was.  It was at least 45 minutes, if not, a couple of hours. 

Again, it's been a long time since this happened.  There was an increase in the buzz at-- in the special quarters area.  And, then Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart came to speak with me directly outside my cell.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what did he say to you?

Pfc. Manning

He stopped and stood right outside my cell.  And, I stood.  I mean, of course, the whole housing unit is at attention for him. 

And, then they didn't-- they didn't-- I don't remember if they said, 'Carry on,' or not but then he told me to, you know, he didn't tell me to relax or anything. 

So I am standing at attention as he's saying, you know, 'We just had-- we just had an incident,' you know, 'Why'd you...'-- and I remember him saying something to the effect of-- of, you know, 'Why are you violating my trust?  I've allowed you to-- I 've allowed you to have this recreation call, so why are you causing trouble,' and everything else. 

I didn't get a chance to explain-- until after I had been sort of-- I don't want to use the term-- the best term I could think of right now off the top of my head is 'lecture'. 

I don't mean that in a demeaning way or anything to a field grade Warrant Officer.  But, you know, that's how I felt at the time.

Defense (Coombs)

So, he was asking you questions about what happened?

Pfc. Manning

No. No. No. He was saying-- he wasn't asking-- he didn't ask questions until later. 

He said, 'Why are you violating my trust with your activities and your...? I've allowed you,'  and I specifically remember him saying, 'I've allowed you to have this recreation time.  I've change the special handling instructions.' 

And, he told me that if-- and he went back to, if he told-- told-- as he told me before, you know, he's allowing me to-- this-- this exception-- the policy essentially and if I violated that trust, then he would put me back on, you know, put me back to having regular rec call. 

And, I was afraid that he was going to take that away at that point.  And, then he started asking me questions as-- assuming I was given the opportunity to-- I think Master Sergeant Papakie came-- passed by.  I don't remember of that was the case or not.  But, I was told to relax at some point and then he started asking me questions.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what questions was Chief Averhart asking you?

Pfc. Manning

You know, he came back to, 'Why are you' you know, 'my trust, as' you know, 'your a detainee, and you are a high visibility--' 

He didn't say 'high visibility' but essentially 'a detainee at this facility that's' you know-- you know, 'Why-- why are you a detainee that wants to cause trouble?' essentially. 

'Sir, I don't know.  I don't want to cause-- I don't want to cause trouble.  I don't want to cause-- I am trying not to cause any situations or incidents or anything like that.'  I-- I apologized for any confusion and et cetera.

Defense (Coombs)

Did there come a time when you asked him why you were still on POI?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  This was maybe at least five minutes into this-- into this conversation, and it turned into a conversations.

Defense (Coombs)

And, how did he respond to you?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I started, you know, being told to relax and not be at attention, I felt more compelled to be able to speak my mind a little bit, and I felt like this was an opportunity since I had the senior staff there, you know just to-- just to make one more-- to make one-- have one more change to argue and to try to keep them from effectively putting me on, you know-- to take my recreation call away, which was my concern at that time. 

And, and, he was not happy about the fact that I started to-- to ask questions and state, you know, that I felt that-- that, you know-- you know, I felt that I was trying so hard and why couldn't I just get a little bit more.

Defense (Coombs)

And, how did he respond to your questions about POI?

Pfc. Manning

He-- he gave me the-- he gave me the answer that, you know, 'It's my decision.  This is my facility.  I am the Brig Commander,' you know, ' I am the Brig OIC [Officer in Charge].  I am the Brig Commander,' you know, they don't really use the term 'Commander' by itself, but 'I am the Brig OIC,' and 'I make the decisions, and you,' and he said quite a number of times, you know, 'I feel like you violated my trust,' you know, 'in allowing you to have this privilege.' 

And, I countered that with, you know, I felt that I should not be on POI.  And, you know, I have put in these complaints and things, and the, you know, the 138 complaint had been put in at this time, you know, I started to talk about that. 

And, he felt that I-- from what I gauge-- I mean, I think he felt insulted by the fact that a detainee in a cell was, you know, saying these things, sir.  Sorry that happened.

Defense (Coombs)

And, so when you started pushing back, what did Chief Averhart do?

Pfc. Manning

What is that?

Defense (Coombs)

When you started pushing back on, 'Hey I don't feel I need to be in POI.  I don't understand why I am in POI,' what did Chief Averhart do in response?

Pfc. Manning

Chief Warrant Officer-- Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart he got angry. 

I mean, he was furious.  I've-- I've only seen a field grade-- I've only seen a field grade officer angry twice in my life at this level.  Once in-- at Fort Drum, whenever he-- somebody found out that-- about something really terrible, and this was the only other time. 

And, I've-- you know it was just-- I was just blown away.  I mean, I was scared at this point.  He was yelling.  I mean, I felt like he was yelling at me at this point.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you ask him to stop yelling at you?

Pfc. Manning

I did.

Defense (Coombs)

And what did he say in response?

Pfc. Manning

I went back to attention and just listened. And, then he left and said-- he yelled-- and I remember Master Sergeant Papakie was-- was there at this time. 

I am standing at attention, and he said to the guards who were standing outside the booth, and they had sort of their jaw-- a jaw drop look on them-- he said-- he turned to them and said, 'Special move. SR [Suicide Risk]' 

And, I-- I lost my demeanor at that point, and then I humbled-- I mean I was like-- I can't believe, you know-- you know, I am trying to keep from losing my recreation call, and I am being put on-- I am going back to square one since I got here. 

And, I almost-- I almost punch the wall.  I mean I was so pissed, anxious, furious, just a lot different-- just shock, you know.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you striking yourself in the head during this time?

Pfc. Manning

No.  I grabbed-- I grabbed at my head.  I mean, just-- I was-- I mean, just-- I don't know how else to describe-- you know, the way I was feeling apart from, you know just, I didn't know-- I didn't know what to do at this-- I was helpless at that point.

Defense (Coombs)

So, when you said that you grabbed at your head, you put your-- your hands up to both side of your head, just above your ears, is that what you did?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  If I'm-- you know, I lost my-- I was-- I was standing at attention one second, and now I'm not. 

I'm standing just losing my-- I lost my demeanor at that point.  I-- I don't know if I yelled at that point.  I think I did.  I was just like, 'Oh, God,' or something like-- like that.  Some-- some--

Defense (Coombs)

Now, how soon after this incident did you start having a conversation with Master Sergeant Papakie about what just occurred.

Pfc. Manning

Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart stormed off after he said, 'SR' or 'Special Move SR' to the guards and stormed out. 

And, Master Sergeant Papakie was still there, and then Gunnery Sergeant...I don't remember the exact order of the conversations, but Gunnery Sergeant Blenis eventually came in and talk to me.

Defense (Coombs)

And, at that moment did you know--

Pfc. Manning

--then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  At that moment did you know that they were video taping you?

Pfc. Manning

I saw the video camera at some point.  I did not think that they were recording the entire conversation. 

I thought that they-- I saw-- I saw at some point, I don't remember where, I was like, 'Is that a video camera?' Because I hadn't seen a video camera in a very long time.  So, it struck me as something odd. 

I didn't even know that they had such a thing, as a hand held camera .  Because there were cameras in the ceilings everywhere-- you know, in the facility, but this was the first time I had seen a digital camcorder.  I thought they were [missed a word] going to happen, but I didn't think they were recording me at the time.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so.  The-- the time period when Chief Averhart leaves to the time period that Master Sergeant Papakie now is there talking to you in your cell.  How much time would you estimate has transpired?

Pfc. Manning

I don't recall.  I really don't.  Minutes.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  So, what we're going to do, is we are going to go ahead and to take a look at the two videos from that time period, and I am going to ask you a few questions about that.

Pfc. Manning

Alright.  I've-- I've got the screen there, so.

 [A video of Pfc. Manning standing behind the cross thatched bars of his Quantico cell, being forced to hand over his clothes is having the following exchange with two senior staff members and guards at the Quantico Brig on 18 January 2011. 

Image source: Clark Stoeckley

In the video are Pfc. Manning, Master Sergeant Papakie, Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, and Gunners Mate 2nd Class Webb.

Because of technical problems, only audio was available to the press pool.  The video, however, was viewable in the courtroom. 

A transcript of the video was available in the defense Article 13 motion. I have left some speakers that I could not name labeled as they are in the Article 13 motion, vis. 'redacted' or 'XXXXXXXXXX'.]

Master Sergeant Papakie

I know what you're getting at, ok? I'm telling you that we're not outside the rules and regulations of anything that we're doing. Period. We're not. So I need your clothes.

Pfc. Manning

That's fine, sir. [Manning strips to his underwear. The rest of the conversation takes place with PFC Manning in his underwear].

XXXXXXXXXX

Skivvies say on?

Other Guard

yes. ... leave those on.

XXXXXXXXXX

We're going to get someone over here to talk to you. ... You have one mattress, right? You have the one suicide blanket, right?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. Yes, sir.

XXXXXXXXXX

Shower shoes are fine. Let's get the doc over here. XXXXXXXXXX Sit down and see what's going on. Alright? I need you calm right now, alright? The escalation in your demeanor, alright, weighs us on the side of caution. Do you understand that?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, MSGT.

Defense (Coombs)

Just for a moment.  This person here that is closest to the camera, who is this?

Pfc. Manning

That is Master Sergeant Papakie.

Defense (Coombs)

And the person that is now facing you, that is just in front of him, who is that?

Pfc. Manning

That is then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis-- Master Sergeant Blenis.

Defense (Coombs)

And the taller gentleman who is standing behind him, who is that?

Pfc. Manning

That is GM 2 Webb, Gunners Mate 2.  It's an E5 position.

 [Video resumes.]

Master Sergeant Papakie

The best way to explain that to you is you had an outburst. You were moving around. You almost punched a wall. You're kind of throwing yourself around in the cell. To make sure you don't hurt yourself we're putting you on a suicide risk status. We're upgrading your status.

Pfc. Manning

But I'm not a suicide risk.

Master Sergeant Papakie

That's not for me to decide. I have to make sure, the brig officer has to make sure, that you're taken care of.

Pfc. Manning

I understand MSGT.

Master Sergeant Papakie

In the manner that you're not going to hurt yourself. Right now, I don't know that. With the display I saw right now, I'm not comfortable with. He's not comfortable with. Until we get something otherwise, this is how it's going to be.

Pfc. Manning

Why was I on, why was I on prevention of status for almost 6 months?

Master Sergeant Papakie

[chuckles to himself] I know this is no secret to you ... I have plenty of documentation. Plenty of documentation based on things that you've said, things that you've done. Actions – I have to make sure, we have to make sure, that you're taken care of.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, MSGT.

Master Sergeant Papakie

Things that you've said and things that you've done don't steer us on the side of "ok, well, he can just be a normal detainee." They make us stay on the side of caution.

Pfc. Manning

But what about recommendations by the psychiatrist to remove me off the status?

Master Sergeant Papakie

Who's here every day? Who's here every day? We are. Who sees you every day? That's all he is, is a recommendation. We have, by law, rules and regulations set forth to make sure from a jail standpoint that Manning does not hurt himself. Maybe from a psychiatric standpoint, the recommendation he's given, I get it, I got it, understand, OK? But he's not the only decision maker. A mental health specialist is not the only decision that gets made.

Pfc. Manning

I understand that, sir.

XXXXXXXXXX

However...

Defense (Coombs)

The windows down here, is that-- are those the windows that you get natural light from?

Pfc. Manning

If you put-- if you place your head up against the thatched portion where the door is--

Defense (Coombs)

Mm-hmm.

Pfc. Manning

--and you poke your eye through barely you can see the reflections, but you can't actually see the window.  You can't see the window itself from inside the cell.

Defense (Coombs)

And are these the bars that they said you were licking, or appeared to be licking, when you were sleep walking?

Pfc. Manning

I assume so, Sir.

[Video resumes.]

[XXXXXXXXXX leaves and XXXXXXXXXX enters] [inaudible]

Pfc. Manning

I got dizzy ...

XXXXXXXXXX

Wasn't dehydration?

Pfc. Manning

No, I was anxious because I didn't know why the guards were so edgy. ... They raised their voice ... And I didn't ... I was getting anxious because they were getting anxious. So I was trying to figure out what was the cause of them getting anxious. It seemed to me that they were looking for something wrong...

XXXXXXXXXX

Something wrong as in a rules violation, or something wrong as in ...

Pfc. Manning

Yes.

XXXXXXXXXX

Rules violation?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. Because I've been here for a long time, so everything becomes automatic. So I don't know if I say something and they respond. I don't know what happened. I've been in, inside so long – I don't remember the last time I was outside.

...

[Portions of the rest of the dialogue between XXXXXXXXXX and PFC Manning are inaudible]

XXXXXXXXXX

So, let's go back to when you fell down. Did you fall down or did you sit down? Or...

Defense (Coombs)

Now the camera goes inside of a room.  What's the room that the camera goes inside of?

Pfc. Manning

That is the observation booth, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what we see here.  I will let it go forward a little bit in a second, but is this figure here you?

Pfc. Manning

That is me.  That is cell 192, and the one to right that has all of my belongings in a box there is cell 191.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  So, this would be the view that the guards would be able to have of you from inside the cell-- or excuse me, the observation room, correct?

Pfc. Manning

Ah, yes. Correct, Sir.

[Video resumes.]

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so let's go to the second video.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, Sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Now due to where the camera is at the audio here is really not so good.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, Sir.

Defense (Coombs)

This conversation that you are having with Gunnery Sergeant Blenis from your memory, what are you talking about?

Pfc. Manning

I am just trying to talk to him about, you know-- trying to show him-- I just remember, I wanted to convey to him that, you know-- I am not trying to be a problem.

And, you know, I am trying to talk to him about POI status and everything else.

Just-- just the usual-- I mean, this-- this-- apart from the fact that we have the bars in between us, sometimes we would talk like this in the office. 

This is much like the conversations that we would normally have.  Except obviously I was in boxers and [missed last word].

Defense (Coombs)

And, so at this point all you have on is just your boxers?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, Sir.  That is correct.

Defense (Coombs)

And, Ma'am.  The defense motion does its best to give an audio version of this.  I don't believe this is very long, but I do believe that the audio get a little better. If it doesn't, I don't believe it is necessary for you to see all of it.

[A second video plays.  Because of technical problems, only audio was available to the press pool.  The video, however, was viewable in the Courtroom.

 A transcript of the video was available in the defense Article 13 motion. I have left some speakers that I could not name labeled as they are in the Article 13 motion, as redacted or XXXXXXXXXX.]

Pfc. Manning

Ah, it was mixed. I mean, I was getting lightheaded because I was hyperventilating. So, I was trying to stand up. I was trying to keep from falling because I was worried that if I fell, then everybody would panic and that would make matters worse. So, I tried to stand up and I ended up falling...

...

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis

Take me from end of rec hall to ... where we are now ...

Pfc. Manning

Ok, yes, I started, I got in here and it was normal. And then I started reading my book. And then, I want to say it was MSGT [inaudible] that was the first to show up. And then he came in and was asking me all these questions. I was, ah, trying to figure out how to word the answers without causing any more anxiety. I was trying to figure out ways of not sounding, or not being construed as ... ways that things weren't going to be construed so that ... just trying to figure out ways in which I could tactfully say what I was trying to say without violating any rules and regulation or raise any concern about ...

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis

Concern's already raised... [inaudible]

Pfc. Manning

Yes, but I'm trying not, I'm trying, I'm trying to avoid the concern, and it's actually causing the concern. I mean, cause, I'm getting ... every day that passes by, I'm getting increasingly frustrated, I'm not going to lie. Because I'm trying to do everything that I can not to be a concern, therefore I appear as though I am causing more concern. Or I ... Or it seems that I'm causing more concern or everybody's looking for something to cause concern. So that's what frustrates me. ... Trying to work out the most politically correct way of ...

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis

[largely inaudible] Let's go back to today. ... The anxiety here, today. That's not the first time it's happened since you've been in confinement. As far as I know, it is the first time it's happened since you've been here ... but a similar situation ...

Pfc. Manning

I wasn't, in Kuwait, I had no idea what was going on generally.

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis

But, would you say it was similar situation?

Pfc. Manning

No, no. The situation that happened today was more of ... you know, I'm lucid and aware and just trying to figure ... It's just a question of trying not to appear like I was in Kuwait. Because that's my main concern every day, is how do I get off of POI status? How do I get off of POI status? When will I be taken off of POI status? What is being used to justify the precautions? You know ... What concerns, you know, what am I doing that's concerning [inaudible]? So I'm constantly trying to figure out, run through all of those things. And trying to make sure I'm not doing anything...

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis

 [inaudible] ... As time goes on, we have less of a concern, ok?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, GYSGT. But the restrictions were still in place. And I was ...

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis

Right. And we continually... We understand it's not normal that we have someone in POI for this period of time...

Pfc. Manning

Yes.

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis

It's not [normal] ... I guess we'll just leave it at that. So as we go on, we're going to lessen your restrictions. They're still be restrictions in place ... [inaudible] But I would have to disagree with you as far as what happened today happened in Kuwait ... anxiety attack ...

Pfc. Manning

No, in Kuwait, I wasn't lucid. I had... [guard interrupts]. It was like a dream...

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis

But, they both ultimately ended up in you having an anxiety attack ... controlled fall, but ...

Pfc. Manning

No, I don't remember falling in Kuwait at all.

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis

Well, I can tell you, that's what was reported to us ... none of us were there [refers again to PFC Manning's suicide status Kuwait] ... Us, as a facility, we have to always err on the side of caution, okay. And not just the side of caution, but over-caution. Especially when we're talking about suicide, okay? Nobody's saying you're going to kill yourself, alright? [inaudible] But we always have to be more cautious than that. But you're saying that 'nobody else is on suicide watch.' The thing is what happened in Kuwait, what happened today ...

Pfc. Manning

Those are totally different. I understand, I understand, I understand, where you're getting that ... from the documentation. I mean, I quite, I know where I am. I know I am ... I know I am at Quantico base facility. I know that I'm at a brig. I mean, I'm lucid and aware of where I am. I'm not ...

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis

You asked [MSGT] a question ... about why you're on suicide watch, I'm trying to answer that question, okay? Did I answer that?

Pfc. Manning

Uh – no. No, with context. Because the fact that ...

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis

[inaudible] Did you understand that?

Pfc. Manning

I would have understood had ... had I not been ... I would have understood had ... had I not been ... I mean, I'm trying to think of how to word this proper ...

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis

Provoked? Provoked?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, a little. I feel like the facility, honestly, I feel like the facility is looking for reasons to keep me on POI status.

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis

Inaudible. I can tell you 'no'...

Pfc. Manning

I mean, at least not at the staff level, I'm thinking the CO [Commanding Officer] – me, myself, personally.

Master Sergeant Papakie

 Inaudible ... From a logistical standpoint, it's a burden on us. ...

Pfc. Manning

Yes, MSGT.

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis

Nobody finds that as a joy. It's not a punitive thing, I understand why someone would see it as a punitive thing because restrictions placed [inaudible] ... I can tell you that ... since you have been here ... I wish I had a hundred Mannings ...

Defense (Coombs)

Did you hear there-- where he told you-- Gunnery Sergeant Blenis said as far as your conduct, 'I wish I had a hundred Mannings'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, I did.  I heard very often from then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis.

[Video resumes.]

Pfc. Manning

And that's what... And that's where I don't understand why the continuation of the policy and restrictions beyond the time recommended by you and the psychiatrist. I mean the psychiatrist, is saying. I mean, I've got my own forensic psychiatrist that's saying now that the POI status is actually doing psychiatric harm and not, you know, and it's actually, you know, increasing my chances, rather than decreasing...

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis

Did you feel like that two weeks ago?

Pfc. Manning

What's that?

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis

Did you feel like that two weeks ago?

Pfc. Manning

Yes GYSGT.

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis

Uh, two weeks ago, I asked you, like, how you were feeling and you said you were fine, do you remember that?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, and I still feel fine. I mean, I feel, I feel fine, but at the same time, I've been putting in, I've been putting in...

[Second video ends.]

Judge Lind

Is there any copy of this that has a better audio?  A clearer audio? [Missed a few words.]

Defense (Coombs)

Your honor, [missed a sentence]. [Missed] tried to provide a transcript. [Missed a few words] can't find it.  But, this is the best copy that we have been provided.

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes, Ma'am.  If it is listened to on an individual computer, it substantially clearer than over loud speakers.

Judge Lind

Alright.  Thank you.

Defense (Coombs)

[to Judge Lind]

It is-- I believe attachment 25 of the defense's motion. 

[to Pfc. Manning] 

So, Pfc. Manning, looking at that video, what thoughts come back to your mind today?

Pfc. Manning

I mean-- I haven't seen that video in several months.  So, you know-- it just brings that back, you know, the fact that I was there and everything else.

Just a-- it's weird seeing-- it's also weird seeing myself from the third person.

Defense (Coombs)

I understand.  So, on that day what were you doing the rest of the day, once you were put on suicide risk?

Pfc. Manning

I sat-- out-- I had been spoken to following this by Captain Hocter and Captain Moore was also there. 

And they sat down, and I talk to them. 

And, and then I spent most of the day just sitting there with-- I believe there was a PFC that was assigned into-- I think it was PFC [Randy Wa?] was-- sat down right outside the cell and watched me on suicide risk.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, in the video you had your glasses.  Did they ever remove the glasses from you?

Pfc. Manning

Later that day they removed the glasses.  I think I got them back at some point.  I don't know if it was the same day, or if it was a few days later. 

I don't recall.  But, I do know that for a brief period of time I had them removed [missed two words]. 

And, a night had them removed-- at night, or after-- after taps.

Defense (Coombs)

And, if you are stripped down to your underwear at that point, is there a time that they give you additional clothing during the day?

Pfc. Manning

Not on suicide risk, which they put me on after that. Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart put me on Suicide Risk.

Defense (Coombs)

So, for the rest of the day, you were just in your boxers?

Pfc. Manning

For the rest of my day I would-- well, I had the blanket. 

I had the POI blanket.  So, I just sat there on the-- on the mattress.  I had the blue mattress at that point, and I just sat there with a POI blanket just wrapped over me.

Defense (Coombs)

How many days, from your memory, were you on Suicide Risk, before you were put back on POI?

Pfc. Manning

It was less than a week if I recall correctly. 

I mean there was-- there was a-- there was a period of time when-- cause I remember Captain Hocter came and he said that he was going to put me on-- that he was going to recommend that I be put on POI, but not suicide risk.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, the following day that you were still on suicide risk, were you just in your boxers or did they give you additional clothing on that day-- to the best of your memory?

Pfc. Manning

They might have given me a T-Shirt.  I don't recall exactly.  Yeah, I probably should say, because I don't remember.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  So, let's go back to your Article 138 complaint--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

--for a moment.  When did you receive the response-- to the best of your memory-- to your Article 138 complaint?

Pfc. Manning

The response to the Article 138 complaint was on-- it was February-- I don't think it was-- I don't think it was like January.  That was January?  I don't recall the time.  I just remember there being a first.

Defense (Coombs)

Would 1 March [2011] sound about right to you?

Pfc. Manning

Yeah.  It was the next month after that.  So, yes.  1-- Not 1 March-- I mean, late February is what I remember.  That's what it feels like.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  So, the-- after you receive--

Pfc. Manning

I-- I feel like I got it before I was suppose to get it, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  After you received the Article 138 response, you also recall roughly around that time receiving notification of additional charges being referred against you.

Pfc. Manning

I had heard through you that they were coming a few weeks prior to that. 

We didn't-- if I remember-- I mean, again this is two years ago, February. 

But I recall, that we knew that charges were coming, we just didn't know-- we didn't know the exact specifications or anything, but we knew the general nature from trial counsel, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Now when you had filed your 138 response did you have any hope that, that may bear fruit, and result in your being taken off of MAX and POI?

Pfc. Manning

Not really.  I had-- I mean I didn't know what to-- I didn't know-- I didn't really, you know-- the saying in the military is you know, 'You hope-- you hope for the-- the best, but prepare for the worst' and I was prepared for the worst at that point.

Defense (Coombs)

Was being on MAX and POI for the length of time that you were frustrating to you?

Pfc. Manning

It was frustrating, and I began to get more frustrated as it went on until it just didn't-- it just didn't matter. 

There was a certain point, I don't recall when-- I mean, it might have been February or-- or-- no, it was March-- it was more towards that after the change over-- the change in command, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  And do you recall on 2 March having the opportunity to speak to Master Sergeant Papakie, the gentleman that we saw first in the video about POI again? 

Pfc. Manning

On 2 March?

Defense (Coombs)

Yes.

Pfc. Manning

Okay, so that-- yes.  A months an a half later.  Oh this is the-- on that day Master Sergeant Papakie came by and did a check, but it-- what was unusual about this check was that he stopped by the cell and he told me to relax. 

Because, normally whenever the senior staff of the facility passed through you were standing at parade rest.  I was standing at parade rest or at attention any [missed word] there was an officer or senior enlisted person.

And it was generally accepted, I mean it was generally known you weren't suppose to respond except for, you know 'Yes.'  'Yes, Master Sergeant.'  'Yes, sir,' for pretty much anything, until you had been put into-- unless you were told to relax, and you were given sort of a little bit of freedom to speak. 

And, he had-- he had given me the opportunity, so I decided that it's been-- it's been a little bit of time since the last time I raised this with Master Sergeant Papakie, and he seemed like-- he seemed to be in a good mood, so I started to talk to him.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what did you ask him?

Pfc. Manning

I asked him more about the comfort level of the facility as he kept on discussing. 

As we discussed previously, his comfort level with particularly the commander's comfort level of, you know, me being-- you know, put onto restrictions or precautions, and-- and I remember the change over had already occurred-- this was after the change over-- and had been just enough time to where I thought after, you know, after Chief Warrant Officer Two Barnes had been put in as the new commander, I thought maybe I could given the opportunity now, I could get a chance to grab the ear of Master Sergeant Papakie, and in this moment to-- you know, talk to him about how I felt about it.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you hopeful that when you talked to him that maybe with a change of leadership, the new commander, that, that would result in you being taken off MAX and POI?

Pfc. Manning

I thought at last maybe I had the-- the opportunity to have somebody different because I-- I had felt that after the-- after the 'Special Move to SR'  that I was never going to be able to convince  Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart of anything, so I-- but I felt that maybe that would be different with Chief Warrant Officer Two Barnes.

Defense (Coombs)

And when you were speaking with Master Sergeant Papakie, what did he say back to you regarding your requests on POI?

Pfc. Manning

Very similar things to what he had stated in the video we had just seen.  But, he was a lot more relaxed and there wasn't as much tension, sir.

It's one of the few times I was given an opportunity to speak at level with him.  So, I don't have to stand at parade rest.  I can sort of, you know, be myself, and maybe speak my mind, and maybe talk to him a little but about different things.

Defense (Coombs)

What do you recall him saying to him about POI?

Pfc. Manning

Particularly with prevention of injury, it went back to-- you know, 'We have concerns,' you know, 'about what happened in Kuwait,' you know, 'We are not trusting you,' you know, 'We're not...you're doing,' you know, 'You're doing what you're suppose to but then,' you know, 'there are things that we're concerned about.'

And-- and, you know I-- and, as you know-- and, I just-- I tried to plead with him just a little bit about, you know, making small changes to the POI, you know-- just maybe chop at-- chop away at it between the different-- maybe they would have sort of a-- if I couldn't get prevention of injury, you know, removed, maybe I could chip away at different things, and have a gradual change over the-- over a period of weeks or months. 

And, he said that he might convey that to  Chief Warrant Officer Barnes.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you ever convey to him any comments about your underwear?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  There was a moment in there where, you know-- I just wanted to convey the fact that, you know, I've been-- again I kept on telling him I've been on the status for a long time, you know-- and I am not doing anything to harm myself. 

I mean, I have, you know-- and it came back to, you know, 'I've been in here and yet,' you know, 'I'm not throwing myself against the walls or' your know, 'jumping up and down,' you know, 'trying to [missed word] into the toilet and drown...'  you know just all sorts of different examples of how-- you know, if I-- if I was really a danger-- if I-- if I, you know-- you know, just venting a little bit about, you know-- about how if I was a danger to myself, you know I would-- I would, I am sure I would generally act out more.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you ever tell him--

Pfc. Manning

--and I used the underwear as an example, you know-- I said to him, you know, 'If I really wanted-- if I really wanted to hurt myself, I mean wouldn't I just use the things that are here now,' you know, 'the underwear, the flip flops.  These are all-- these are all things that could,' you know, 'they could-- they could potentially be used,' you know-- you know, 'as something to harm oneself of others,' you know. 

'And, when does it stop?  Does it stop with removing walls?  Does it stop with the padding,' you know, 'everything?  Does it stop with a straight jacket?'  And just-- I vented  a little bit, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

How did Master Sergeant Papakie respond to you when you pointed out the fact that you could harm yourself with your underwear or your flip flops if you wanted?

Pfc. Manning

He was nodding through that and he continued on the conversation and, you know-- I don't recall when it switched over to-- I mean there was no-- there was no immediate change in the conversation. 

I mean I just-- I actually thought that maybe my point had gotten across, cause he was nodding, you know-- not quite smiling from-- he wasn't a person-- a person to really smile much, but I felt like he was listening and understanding-- I mean nodding, and we continued our conversation.

Defense (Coombs)

At any point until the conversation ended, did you see from him demeanor any sort of alarm or concern, based upon what you were saying?

Pfc. Manning

No, I actually thought-- I actually thought the opposite was occurring.  I thought-- I thought-- I thought I was actually getting through to Master Sergeant Papakie, so I continued.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, after this conversation completed, did anything about your handling instructions change?

Pfc. Manning

Not immediately.  It was a couple hours later that they came with different handling instructions for night. 

Defense (Coombs)

And, what was different about the handling instructions at night?

Pfc. Manning

They removed-- they removed my underwear, and they took  my flip flops out of my cell for the two things that I-- that I had been-- mentioned in particular.

Defense (Coombs)

And, so when they removed your underwear at night, I imagine this was the night of the 2nd of March when you made the comment?

Pfc. Manning

The comment was made near the afternoon.

Defense (Coombs)

No, I mean the 2nd of March is when they removed the underwear from you at that point that night?

Pfc. Manning

Well they-- yes, they-- they-- they executed the special handling instruction.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what were you sleeping in then, on that night?

Pfc. Manning

I slept with my POI blankets, my prevention of injury blankets and mattress. 

They took my glasses away.  They took my flip flops away.  They took my underwear away.  They took my T-Shirt away.  My sock.  All of most of it.

Defense (Coombs)

Did anyone explain to you why there was a change in your handling instructions?

Pfc. Manning

I've, you know-- I've since-- I mean, you know, because of the specific-- the specificity of those two things I sensed that-- that-- I sensed what had happened.

Defense (Coombs)

But, no one actually told you?

Pfc. Manning

I don't recall.  I don't recall who came by.  I think it might have been Master Sergeant Blenis, then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis that kind of came by and explained to me the-- maybe it was Chief Warrant Officer Two Barnes, herself, that came by and actually told me that the-- special handling instructions.  Somebody-- somebody came by and explained it to me, Sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so the next morning at the morning reveille, the morning call, what happened on that morning?

Pfc. Manning

The morning of March 3rd was the first day that I had the special handling instructions changed. 

So, they called-- they announced, 'Reveille Reveille Reveille' as they do every morning at zero five. 

And-- and-- I stood and I grabbed-- I grabbed the POI blanket and I stood at parade rest for, 'Stand by for count.' 

They announce, 'Stand by for count.'  So, I sat that for maybe two to three minutes with the POI blankets over me, sitting upright, because I wasn't allowed to lay down with the lights on. 

And then I stood at parade rest with the blanket until and I couldn't see because of my glasses were taken away.

So, one of the guard-- the guard that was in the observation booth opened the door a crack and stated-- he stated or asked, 'Is that you stand at parade rest, detainee Manning?' 

And I say-- I wanted to clarify, you know, if he-- if he wanted-- I requested if he wanted me to place it-- and he-- I don't recall if he said, 'You know what to do,' or something like that, but I knew, you know, I knew it was an indirect command. 

So, I placed my POI blanket back on the mattress, and stood at parade rest.

Defense (Coombs)

And the time that you are standing at parade rest at that point--

Pfc. Manning

--and I said-- I said, 'No, Lance Corporal' to, 'Is that how you stand at parade rest?'  I said, 'No, Lance Corporal.'  I guessed at the rank, because I couldn't see him.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  So, went you put the blanker back and stood back at parade rest, you had no clothing on at that point?

Pfc. Manning

Yeah.  I had no socks, no underwear, nothing.  I had no articles of clothing.  I didn't have glasses.  So, no.  No, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, where were you standing as far as your cell?

Pfc. Manning

At the door.  The same door that you see in the video, and it's right at the front of the cell.  I don't know if it was 191 or 192.  But at the front of the cell, Sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Was the cell door open or closed at that point?

Pfc. Manning

The cell door was closed.  They don't-- I mean, they don't--  I 'm on POI status at this time, they don't-- The only time they open the door is if I am in full restraints, sir.  Or if there is an immediate emergency, medical emergency.

Defense (Coombs)

And, while you are standing there naked at parade rest, did anyone come out of the observation booth and direct you at that point, 'Private Manning, cover yourself with the blanket'?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

So, what happens next?

Pfc. Manning

Well, they announce-- because they can see-- because in the observation booth they have cameras. 

They announce ahead of time the fact that alpha row door to the housing unit was about to open, and so they announce, you know, 'Stand by for count,' you know.  'Stand by for Count,' again.  And then, [with a Marine Corps voice] 'Special Quarters, Attention,' or 'Ten-hun' in the Marines Corps, they don't-- I don't know how exactly they say it, but they called us to attention. 

And, I stood at attention, and then the DBS, who was wearing-- who was wearing-- who was wearing the [missed word] cap, Marine Corps uniform.

So, I knew it wasn't GM 2 Webb.  So, it was a Marine-- so, it was the Marine DBS passed by and did his. 

And I saw the-- I can't see detail, so I couldn't see the face.  I couldn't see rank. I knew it was a DBS.  But, you know I saw the knife hand for the count, and then he passed by, and then-- and then everything continued as normal.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright--

Pfc. Manning

--and then they called us back to parade rest after. And, then they announced, 'Count clear,' you know.  Over-- they open the door and said, 'Count clear,' you know, or, 'Carry on.' 

So, I-- and, then I proceeded to sit back down on the-- on the-- one the mattress until the guard came by with my clothing and glasses.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so.  The time period that you are up front standing naked and they announce the-- the fact that they are going to do the count, how long are you there standing naked either at parade rest or attention before the count is done.

Pfc. Manning

I was standing at parade rest for about three minutes. 

Standing at attention for a minute and a half to conduct count, and then I was standing at parade rest for another three or four minutes until they complete the-- until they do the, 'All clear.'  The DBS calls 'Count Clear' over the [missed word].

Defense (Coombs)

And, when-- and you said once--

Pfc. Manning

--[missed] at that point.

Defense (Coombs)

--you said once the count was clear then you returned back to your rack and covered yourself up with your POI blanket?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, at the time that you are standing here naked, and you are doing the count. 

At any point does the DBS or anyone else then say to you, 'Private Manning' or 'Detainee Manning, go cover yourself with your blanket'?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

So, after they complete that count, and you are sitting on your rack, with your blanket covering you.  How much time goes by before they give you your clothes?

Pfc. Manning

Only about a minute or two. I mean it was fairly quickly after that.  It was that they-- they waited for the count, because they brought me a razor. 

They set the razor on the feed tray for-- along with my clothes for-- to shave my face, and I put it back.  And, we continued on until the morning.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  So then the end of 3 March, what happened?  Is your underwear taken away at the end of that day?

Pfc. Manning

At the end of the night, yes, sir.  At taps.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, and again, what are you sleeping with in your bed at that point?

Pfc. Manning

The two POI blankets from-- as a carry over from the winter, and the mattress. 

And, those are the only-- those are the only articles in the cell that are not affixed to anything.  They're not-- a part from my person. 

So, it's my person, the mattress, and two blankets, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, on the morning of 4 March, what happens?

Pfc. Manning

On the next day, they give-- they call-- they-- they-- actually my clothing-- whenever they announced, 'Reveille Reveille Reveille,' my clothing was in the feed tray-- already handing over.  So, I grabbed that.  I put it on.  They I stood by for count.

Defense (Coombs)

So, on that morning when you were standing for count, were you naked?

Pfc. Manning

For, 'Stand By for Count' and for 'Count' I was in the clothing that I was authorized.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  And, at the end of 4 March, what happens?

Pfc. Manning

At the end of 4 March, I have-- I am returned-- it's the same procedure. 

I give them my clothing, and then I have the two prevention of injury blankets, the mattress with the built in pillow, and-- and my person.

Defense (Coombs)

On the morning of the 5th of March, what happens?

Pfc. Manning

The morning of the 5th-- the third day that we-- that we did this, they called, 'Reveille Reveille Reveille'. 

I snap to parade rest.  The last instruction-- the last instruction that I had been given from the previous-- from the previous day, from those days of before, was not to have a blanket over me or the implied instructions.

So, I stood at parade rest.  And, they placed-- and then the guard ran into my cell and placed my clothing, and then I put my clothing on, and then-- then they called count as I-- and I had-- I was-- I was just about dressed whenever they announced count. 

So, I was put at attention and the DBS counted me.  Then I was at.  I was clothed by that time, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so.  For when they-- they announced, 'Get Ready For the Count,' you were standing naked, and then somebody you said from the observation room ran out to give you your clothes?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.  Yes.

Defense (Coombs)

The morning of the-- well at the ending of the 5th, I imagine you gave back your underwear again?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, we continued on with the regular procedure.  I don't know how many days it was before I was given the prevention of injury blanket?

Defense (Coombs)

You mean the smock?

Pfc. Manning

--the smock.  Because, I had mentioned the fact that I had to-- by this time I had, you know, I had to stand at parade rest like that.  I felt it was odd.  At that time, I felt it was odd.  Maybe, not.  I don't know what to tell them.  But, you know--

Defense (Coombs)

How many times, did you ever have any other occurrences where you were standing at parade rest naked in the morning other than the 3rd and the 5th?

Pfc. Manning

No.  They started to put my clothing into the feed tray at-- about five or 10 minutes before they announced,  'Reveille Reveille Reveille'. 

So, as soon as the lights come on, and they announce,  'Reveille Reveille Reveille,' the clothing is there.

So, I can grab it, put it on, and put my glasses on. 

So, I can see what is going on, you know.

Defense (Coombs)

And, at some point you say that you got the suicide smock?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  I don't recall-- I think it was the 7th.  I actually got it, on the morning of the 7th, it would have been, I grabbed my clothing ten minutes before, they would have put it there before-- announcing  reveille and lights on. 

And, then I grabbed my clothing.  I put it on that day, but that was before the smock.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, after this time period, was there ever a day in which you did not have to surrender your underwear at night, before you left to go to the JFCF [Joint Regional Correction Facility Leavenworth on 20 April 2012]?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.  They would give me my-- they would give me the smock, maybe, five minutes before they announced taps. ' 'Taps. Taps. Taps,' was what they would announce.

They would stuff the-- the smock into the feed tray.  I would receive it, and I would place-- then I would put it on, and then I would undress with the smock sort of over me as a blanket.  And then I would wrap it up--

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

--sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  Before we going into our next and last section, if I could.  Can we have another fifteen minute break?

Judge Lind

Any objection?

Prosecution (Fein)

No, your Honor.

Judge Lind

Alright Court is in recess then until 20 minutes to 19 hundred, or seven o'clock.

ALL RISE.

ALL RISE.

Judge Lind

Please be seated. This Article 39(a) Session is called to order.  Let the record reflect all parties present when the Court last recessed are again present in Court. 

Defense (Coombs)

Pfc. Manning, I again remind you that you're under oath.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. 

Defense (Coombs)

Alright. I'd like to talk to you now about your relationship with CW2 Barnes, the Brig OIC, who replaced Chief Averhart.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Do you recall, well she reports that your communication with her changed overtime, were you became more quiet and withdrawn. 

Is that your memory of the events?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  That is correct, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, why did you become more quiet with her onward?

Pfc. Manning

Well, when I first met Chief Warrant Officer Two Barnes, I realized that she was replacing and-- although she was replacing the role of the-- of being the Brig OIC. 

So, and I knew that-- I mean-- and I knew sort of-- I knew generally, at that time-- I knew specifically what her role in the process of my status was at that time. 

So, I felt that-- I felt that perhaps, you know, she might listen or look at things differently-- look at the-- the information involved with making these determinations-- these final determinations.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you have a conversation with were you talked about stuff?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  I remember being more forthcoming at the very beginning with-- with Chief Warrant Officer Two Barnes, because I-- I mean I thought that she might-- she might look at things differently so I want to-- I certainly wanted to engage her, and-- and make her feel comfortable.

Defense (Coombs)

Now during your conversations, who else was present, besides you and Chief Barnes?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I mean it might have been a counselor present, the counselor, Master Sergeant Blenis or then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, or Staff Sergeant Jordan played a small role-- a smaller role as the counselor. 

But, I don't recall, and then Master Sergeant Papakie, being the NCOIC-- was the-- it's more of an Army term, but 'battle buddy' of the OIC, so.

Defense (Coombs)

And, where were these conversations taking place between you and Chief Barnes?

Pfc. Manning

The most significant one that I-- the most significant ones that I remember, were when she first spoke with me.

She actually pulled me out of my cell, and sat me down in the conference area. 

We talked and she, you know, explained the fact that she was the new OIC and she wanted to talk to me, and get to sort of know me better, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, did you have another conversation with her, where you started asking her about what she needed to do to get off of POI?

Pfc. Manning

Yes [missed two or three words] almost all of the early conversations involved that questions, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, at any point during the conversation did there become an issue of a conflict between you and Chief Barnes?

Pfc. Manning

I don't-- I don't recall when.  I think it might have been more towards the March timeframe.  Early March.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what do you recall from that?

Pfc. Manning

I remember.  I started--  After-- after some-- after being there for a few weeks, you know-- I started to feel like this was just a continuation of Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart on just-- I felt like she was just-- she was looking at everything from the same-- through the same lens-- just maybe with a slightly different way of-- of carrying herself and explaining the same things, I guess.  The same justifications for her-- for her decisions. 

Defense (Coombs)

Did you bring that up with her?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, I did.  And, I mean started to get frustrated with the whole process. 

And I spent most of the time listening at first to her, and then whenever-- and I feel like I, you know-- she took me down, she sat me down. 

So, I was sitting down in restraints, across from her on the table.  I mean, not really 'across', but you know, we had a corner of the table. 

So, you know, we are not exactly far apart from each other.  She-- and then, you know, she allowed me then to speak my mind a little bit. 

But, as I am speaking my mind, she stops me and she says, 'Oh, may I remind you that I am a Chief Warrant Officer Two in the Marines Corp and that you are a junior enlisted detainee,' and you know, 'the rank still applies here,' you know, and so that, you know--

And I was, you know-- I was-- I was a little frustrated, but I am not trying to be disrespectful, and I told her, you know 'I apologize that if I seem like I am being disrespectful, but I'm just trying to get my,' you know-- my sense of things across to her, you know-- to her. 

And, but you know, everything that-- whenever I am going to say something, she would just say, you know, 'You are being disrespectful.' And, 'You're not,' you know, 'adhering to the,' you know, 'the policy of being respectful to me as a-- as a Chief Warrant Officer.' 

So, I just felt-- sort of after that-- I didn't feel like-- I felt like anytime I spoke my mind, you know-- even if I was standing at attention and being as, you know-- saying, 'Ma'am' as many times as, you know-- I was still going to be disrespectful to her.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you apologize for the perception of being disrespectful?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, and as I just said, I apologized-- I mean, I apologized for, 'If it seems like I am coming across as disrespectful, it's not-- it's not that I am trying to be disrespectful, Ma'am.  I am just trying to-- to convey my thoughts-- like to convey my opinions on things and,' you know, there was a word-- I mean, I think it was 'absurd'. 

You know, I don't feel like it is inherently, you know-- disrespectful word.  But that was my opinion of how I felt the conditions were at that point. 

And, I felt  that the justification just seemed absurd to me.  And, she found that disrespectful.  And, I apologized, and I tried to find different language.  And, I think the second time that phrase came out in that conversation.

Defense (Coombs)

At any point, during the conversation, did she tell you that you needed to be careful what you said, because if it did go to sentencing what you said could be used against you to hurt you?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  And, that-- I took that as a threat, not as, you know-- I took that as a threat that, 'If you-- if you continue to-- if you continue to question my authority,'  this is what I am reading from it, 'If you continue to question my authority, then,' you know, 'we are going to make it look like you are being disrespectful, and being belligerent.' 

I realized then that, you know-- I am dealing with a facility was-- that dealing with the facility 'at level' or trying to communicate my thoughts and opinions like that would be dangerous, at that point. 

I felt-- I felt like it was-- it was-- that she was setting up a mind field at that point. That's how I felt.  I mean--

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

So. 

Defense (Coombs)

So, from that point forward, did you feel that it was in your best interest to speak with the staff at the Brig?

Pfc. Manning

I was less trustful or-- I don't know is that a word, 'trustful'?

I trusted the facility less, my trust went down for, you know-- same with Master Sergeant Blenis and Master Sergeant Papakie, and you know, just, you know--

I figured, you know, I have other channels to go through now, and those are the one's that I am going to be [missed word] upon to the Article 138 complaint. 

And, I mean, if we had exhausted the remedies, and we hadn't even considered whether to extraordinary relief to the Army Court of Criminal Appeals.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  Let's-- let's talk about and incident in March of 2011, where you removed some people from your visitation list?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Do you remember how many people in general you removed?

Pfc. Manning

[Missed first word] a large number of people.  I had put a version of everybody that I could I think of that I had an address or a name for on my visitation list when I arrived at the facility, and I added a couple more to it over time as people conveyed to me that they wanted to be on the visitation list. 

A lot of people just didn't either show up or, you know-- and then it ended up that I just, you know-- I don't remember what the question was, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you remove a lot of people from your visitation list in March?

Pfc. Manning

In March, yes, I did.

Defense (Coombs)

And, why--

Pfc. Manning

Well, it wasn't my intent to remove a lot of people. 

I intended on removing two people in particular, being my father and Mr. David House at that particular time. 

A friend of mine and my father. 

So, Mr. David House was a friend of mine, or not really a friend, an acquaintance of mine through another friend, that started-- that was visiting me. 

And, whenever I was given the paperwork, they told me that I had to redo all the paperwork, because a lot of it contained, you know, a lot of mistakes and was out of date and so forth. 

So, I just condensed the list to people that I knew were actually going to come and visit or a part from the two that I had-- that I had focused on removing, which were my father and Mr. House.

Defense (Coombs)

Why did you remove your father from your visitation list?

Pfc. Manning

My father.  He had come by a few times. I don't recall the exact dates, and, you know, he had conveyed to me, you know-- we just talked-- I mean we just talked, you know, in general a couple times about things, and then-- and then I remember-- 

I don't remember exactly what it was, but in early 2011, and he came by, and I think-- I think it was in March, and he came by out of the blue, and it was early 2011, but he did an interview later on that day with like, I think it was PBS Frontline, or something like that. 

And, I had just had this conversation with him that day about, you know, how I am glad that, you know, nobody from the family is really engaging in doing interviews or press or anything like that, and you know, 'I am glad that you aren't doing that,' and he said, 'Well,' you know, 'I don't-- I'm not going to do that,' sir-- you know, and he did that, that same day. 

But, it didn't-- we didn't know this until later of course.  But, whenever I found that out I just-- I didn't want to deal with my father in that sense, because I knew that he had-- I found out that he had just taken advantage of the opportunity to fly, you know-- to get free tickets to go somewhere. 

Or, at least that is how I felt, so.

Defense (Coombs)

So, you didn't want people going to the media?

Pfc. Manning

Particularly, my family and-- and then the other person who I removed is Mr. David House-- because he had visited the facility a few times and I had talked to him, and I was like, you know, 'I don't want to stir up the press or anything, so please,' you know, 'just, if you are going to visit me, just realize, that we are at this level of trust, where,' you know, 'I just want you to talk to me, and be a friend,' you know, 'if you want to be my friend,' cause we were acquaintances. 

We met in early, early 2010, and we had met-- we had a mutual friend, Danny Clark-- this was Daniel Clark.  Clark was his name.  And, you know, he had visited with Mr. Clark before, and-- and we, you know-- we had these conversations, and then I realized over time that he was-- that he was immediately going to like blogs, like to a particular blogger, I forgot her name, but she-- and then-- and then there were these discrepancies, like he was saying things that I didn't necessarily feel that were helpful for-- and especially since, you know, we were just talking about, again, how I didn't want him to go straight to the media immediately following-- immediately following, you know-- visitation with me at-- you know, I just wanted-- I just wanted somebody to talk to, you know, a friend-- to be a friend, you know-- or a family member, not somebody to-- to take advantage of that, or use it as a soap box type--

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so.  Let's now talk about 20 April 2011.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

When you are pulled out of your cell on that day, do you-- do you know where you are going?

Pfc. Manning

On 20-- on the morning of 20 April, everything had moved as normal until about zero seven in the morning. I would say. 

And, Master Sergeant Papakie came by, and said, 'Get your stuff ready,' you know, 'inventory your items and everything.  You are moving to Leavenworth.'  And, that was what he said, so.

Defense (Coombs)

And, so on that morning then what happened?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I didn't have much stuff in my cell to begin with-- what I was transferred with. 

They put me in full restraints.  Moved me to the cell adjacent to me, and put me into the cell with all of my belongings and everything. 

Removed the-- part of the restraints, and then I started to pack my things, and put it into a container-- like all of the soap dishes and, you know, uniforms and stuff. 

And, then there was a trash bag, which I threw away a bunch of other, you know, stuff, and then-- and then they carried-- they put me back in the restraints, and moved to the out-processing and in processing area of the Brig. 

And, with-- and they carried the container with all my belongings, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, then once you were out-processed from the Brig, where did you go?

Pfc. Manning

I was out-processed-- I mean, well I was out-processed into the-- the-- the in processing and out-processing area, whichever it was. 

They inventoried my things, and that period, and then I-- I remember there was some Army officials particularly, Mr. Stroebel, I believe was his name.  And, he had a PMG [Provost Marshal General] shirt.  That's [missed word] there from Provost Marshal General shirt, and he said that-- he explained to me the process of what was going on. 

That I was being transferred.  And how that transfer was going to work.  You know, how the flight and everything was going to work.  How the timing and everything was going to work.  And, you know-- that he was the-- he essentially called himself, the 'OIC of the transfer,'  the Officer in Charge, sir. 

But-- we then moved out of the facility, where there was a lot of-- it was like a bunch of-- there were a lot of soldier-- soldier uniforms, ACU's. 

But, they were CID personnel.  So they were Chief Warrant Officer Four et cetera. 

But, I mean there as a lot of weird movement and stuff, and I was transferred to the Quantico airfield, in I think a [missed word] of police.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright.  So, let's skip now to arriving at Fort Leavenworth, okay?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

So, when you arrive at Fort-- Fort Leavenworth, what happens when you start to in process at the JRCF?

Pfc. Manning

We brought-- they brought me to-- they brought me-- they brought me into the intake area directly. 

So, I didn't see the outside of the facility.  They brought me into basically the in processing section of the facility. 

They removed my restraints.  They removed-- I had some-- I had some kind of body armor on. 

They removed that, and then I had JRCF personnel-- told me to face the wall, instead of parade rest. Told me what-- then I was-- then they brought me through the in processing process-- the intake process at JRCF, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, as you started to go through the in processing process, did they ever place restraints back on you?

Pfc. Manning

They did not.  And, that surprised me. 

They took.  They removed the restraints and they brought me-- and they strip searched me, and then they showered me, and they did scars, marks, tattoos.  I do it every time I come in and out.  Same thing. 

But, they strip searched me-- I mean, after the strip search, they showered me. 

Then, they brought me out, and throughout this entire process, no restraints. 

No. I am standing, you know-- I am walking freely with just the in processing NCO guiding me through the process, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

How did it feel to be walking around out without restraints?

Pfc. Manning

Awkward.  I-- I was waiting for them to put me in restraints throughout the process, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And when then didn't happen, what were you thinking?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I mean-- I didn't think too much-- I was concerned about it, but they--

Defense (Coombs)

Why were you concerned?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I mean I am not used to being outside of anything without restraints at that point in time. 

You know, I was expecting them, you know, to put me back on the status that I was before, you know, just at a different facility, you know. 

And, then they brought me to-- it was actually.  The NCO, Staff Sergeant, brought me to the-- gave me-- issued me some items, and brought me to the cell. 

And, closed the door.  Then, the door closed, and then I was in the cell.  But, I had like sheets, blankets.

Defense (Coombs)

Yeah, what did you have in your cell at that point?

Pfc. Manning

It wasn't much that had been issued, because it's a-- there's a-- it's a several day process when they do that. 

But, I had T-Shirt, shorts, a couple pairs of tan khaki-- like uniform, and sheets, blankets, pillow, and some toiletry items. 

And, these were all in my cell, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what were you thinking at the point now you are now in your cell and you see all these items?

Pfc. Manning

Oh, this is completely different from Quantico Base Brig.  I would-- I don't know-- I didn't know what to think of it, you know--

I thought-- I thought it was a huge upgrade-- I mean, certainly-- but, you know, there was this feeling of, the sense of-- you know, 'Okay.  I know that they are gonna put the hammer down on me, you know, soon.' 

I felt that coming, that sense.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you scared at this point?

Pfc. Manning

I wasn't scared at all.  I mean I was just concerned, you know-- and I knew-- I had gotten use to-- I had gotten use to these procedures, and just assumed that they would be re-implemented at some point. 

I thought somebody in the Chain of Command just-- there might have been a miscommunication of something, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

So, then the next morning starts and what happens?

Pfc. Manning

The next morning comes, the door opens and I am lead out-- well, nobody leads me out. 

They just go over the intercom and say, you know, 'Manning. You've got medical...' 

I received-- I had a blood test.  I had my blood drawn, by a nurse outside of my cell, sir.  There as no restraints or anything like that.  I thought, again, I wasn't use to that.

Defense (Coombs)

And, you said how long was this indoctrination process?

Pfc. Manning

It was a couple days. They brought-- I mean they later, in that morning had took me out of the cell, and-- or they opened the door again.  So, it just opens up. 

And, then they tell me to come out, or get into-- get into my uniform.  Come out. And, I go to a line up with another pretrial-- and some other post trial detainees, or inmates. 

They separated us and then we were led off to a classroom for several hours. 

We did this for a couple of days.  They issued more items-- and fill out more paperwork, and see more people, and just-- this took about six or seven days, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when you are in the classroom-- is this like a classroom, where I would expect there are desks and you are just sitting at the desk?

Pfc. Manning

Well it's a-- they call it a classroom but it's a conference room. 

And, everybody is-- they have-- they have the post trial inmates that are being across us at one side of the table. 

And, the-- they had the two other pre-trials, me, and pre-trial.  And, we sat together, and I was able to talk to him. 

I was-- I wasn't sure if I was suppose to. [slight laugh)]  If I was suppose to talk to him or not, but, you know, I did. 

And, you know-- it was just weird.  It was unusual, and being out and about and like not having a list-- not being having like four people move-- be involved in my movement, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Were you ever concerned at some point that what you were doing was wrong, by being able-- by talking and being out of your cell without restraints?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.   I thought somebody was going to fix what was wrong in terms of my status, you know. 

I thought that it was a-- again, I kept on thinking, 'Oh. Yeah.  It's been a miscommunication,' and you know, 'They are going to change my status. Then, after the status report or the status changes, and that's-- that's'

But, that was what I was used to-- was miscommunication that occurring-- and then, them being fixed, so. 

I just expected the same at the JRCF, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

How long before you realized that-- well I guess after the indoctrination process, you were placed in [missed word] 'Medium Custody'? 

How long for you did it take for you to realize that, that was your new life, now?

Pfc. Manning

It took-- it took a few days for me to realize that, you know, this is my new home, and this is how things are going to be. 

But, I didn't really get use to interacting with the other pre-trials for several weeks. 

It actually might have-- I would say it was probably about a month to a month and a half before I really felt comfortable talking with people, and being out of my cell without restraints, and everything else. 

I just wasn't-- I wasn't use to it, and it was different, and, you know, it was just-- I mean, at first I was almost uncomfortable, because I wasn't sure what to do, or what I was allowed to do. 

I felt like-- I felt like if I was outside of the cell, I was doing something wrong. 

So, I know I just stand at parade rest for, you know, for whatever-- And, you know-- and the guards looked at me like I was funny.  And then I-- so, I started to stop doing that.

Defense (Coombs)

Now, as you started to get adjusted to your new life at the JRCF, did-- did you ever try to harm yourself now that you were in at 'Medium Custody In'?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you ever try to escape?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Did there come a time that you were involved with another detainee in a physical dispute?

Pfc. Manning

Another pretrial inmate, yes. 

There was a-- there was an altercation in December of 2011.  That was about a week before the Article 32, yes.

Defense (Coombs)

And, what happened?

Pfc. Manning

You know-- I mean I had been there for a while. 

We actually moved housing units into this [missed word] housing-- a housing unit where pre-trials were held in a housing unit, separate from everybody else. 

But, you know-- So I was in the cell-- I was in my cell.  And, then it was like afternoon-- it was a Saturday. 

So, I, you know-- I was just-- was mostly just sleeping, cause it's a Saturday and I felt like sleeping that afternoon.  Just to take a nap. 

And, I got out, and it was time for chow.  So, I-- I stood by for chow, to get frisk searched. And, then I remember-- I remember the feeling that-- that this particular inmate was-- was-- sort of, just making fun of me, and attacking me, and just sort of a theory I had-- I am not use-- I am not use to this sort of-- and I had just woken up-- and I was sort of drowsy as well. 

So, I mean, he started to-- I felt like he started to-- to attack me verbally.  And, you know-- and I tried to ignore it, because this is something-- this is not unusual, but the intensity and the-- the intensity of this. 

And, I have never had-- I've never felt like-- I never felt this point this sense of verbal attack-- and then verbal attack, and then me being, you know-- this sense, you know, being made fun of for not responding to it, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

You apparently did respond to it in a way in which you got into trouble?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  Yes, sir.  I did.  I-- I don't know what was said.  He said-- this particular-- I felt that this particular inmate said directly something to me. 

And, I-- I responded.  I mean, I just moved in and I-- and I went-- and I-- and I tried to punch him. 

I mean I guess I tried to go for the face, but I ended up hitting the shoulder of this-- taller, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, then after that were you punished?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I mean I was removed from the housing unit at that point. 

I was-- we went out separate ways, and there was an investigation period. 

And, then there was a break, because we went-- I transferred here for the Article 32. 

Now, there was a sense of the tension from the Article 32 that week as well.  The upcoming Article 32.  And, then it resumed as soon as I got back in January, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you successfully complete your punishment?

Pfc. Manning

I was given, 15 days of disciplinary segregation.  And, fourteen days of extra duty. 

And, I completed my-- the last day of extra duty the exact date, that I was transferred for the arraignment. 

So, yes, I completed-- I completed everything involved with that.

Defense (Coombs)

And, since that incident, have you ever had any difficulty or problems at the JRCF?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, finally.  When you left were seeing-- when you left Quantico, you were seeing a forensic psychiatrist on a weekly basis.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

--when you got to the JRCF did you continue to see other forensic psychiatrists?

Pfc. Manning

Not a psychiatrist.  There was a psychologist,  who worked primarily at the disciplinary barracks, and she was there for my in processing as well. 

Well, she came in after I was-- been-- going through the in processing. 

And, introduced herself, and I told her I wasn't comfortable with-- I didn't-- I mean, she had been working at the JRCF full time. 

She worked at the disciplinary barracks across the street.  And so, she-- I mean it was a brand new facility as well, but, you know, I talked to her. 

I talked to her on-- on a-- once a-- once a month or so, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

And, at this point-- did there come a time where you no longer were being seen by any mental health professionals?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.  I haven't seen-- a clinical-- in a clinical sense a-- I don't know if-- if I seeing-- Doctor Galloway [sp.] in a clinical sense. 

She said that she had been tasked by her, quote 'boss' unquote, you know, to talk to me. 

And so, I would be pulled out for these appointments.  And, I would go speak to her.  And, I don't mind speaking to-- I didn't mind speaking to her, sir. 

But,  I don't know if you could consider that clinical.  I-- I didn't see that in-- I didn't see her as being in a clinical role.  But, if-- if she was, then that ended early this-- at the beginning of the year, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

In this year?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.  Right before the arraignment, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  Thank you Pfc. Manning.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, Sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Your Honor.  The United States recommends that we recess for the night.  The defense and the United States recently coordinated on scheduling, and then possibly have an [RCM] 802 without scheduling to reconvene tomorrow morning at 09:30.

Judge Lind

Alright, any objection?

Defense (Coombs)

No objection, your Honor.

Judge Lind

Alright.  That seems like a good point to do that.  Let's get a start time for tomorrow.  I assume you don't want to reconvene is that correct?

Prosecution (Fein)

Not tonight.

Judge Lind

Pfc. Manning, if you would go ahead and go back to your seat.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, Ma'am.  

[Manning gets up and moves back to the defense table.]

Judge Lind

09:30 like we did today?

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes, Ma'am.

Defense (Coombs)

Yes, Ma'am.

Judge Lind

Alright.  So, we will recess the Court for the evening then and be ready to start at 09:30 tomorrow morning.  Court is in recess.

ALL RISE

See Transcript of US v Pfc. Manning, Article 39(a), 11/30/12

[UNITED STATES CROSS-EXAMINATION OF PFC. MANNING ON NOVEMBER 30, 2012]

 

Judge Lind

Alright, Pfc. Manning.  I believe you were on the stand.

Defense (Coombs)

Pfc. Manning, I remind you, you are under oath.

Prosecution (Fein)

Private First Class Manning, other than the one time I was in front of you briefly in the case, we have never actually spoken before today, correct?

Pfc. Manning

You mean in October of 2011?  Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes, November of 2011?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, all the information that I have is based off of your witness testimony, discovery as you referenced yesterday, recordings, and only that information.  Not, anything from you?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

What I would like to first focus your attention on Private Frist Class Manning is your cell, as you walked through yesterday, and comparing that to disciplinary cells that you were not ever actually in at Quantico, at least to the best of-- of the prosecution's knowledge.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You were in a standard cell under POI and  MAX custody,  correct?

Pfc. Manning

For Special Quarters?

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you had three walls, a toilet, a sink, a rack, and the bars in front?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you are in a cell that had a skylight in the hallway?

Pfc. Manning

Further down the hallway, yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, a wall of windows that we saw in the video, yesterday?

Pfc. Manning

There were windows at the end of the hallway, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, natural light could come into the windows, but necessarily directly through your bars, right in front of your cell?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You did not have a steel door, directly in front of you?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You didn't have a steel door in front of the bars that were...?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You did not live in the quarters that only had a small window or half, and that was available at Quantico?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And while at Quantico, you lived where all the other pretrial detainees lived?

Pfc. Manning

For a significant portion, yes, sir.  I believe the first couple weeks I was there.  They still had a housing unit-- another area where they had people.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

[Missed.]

Prosecution (Fein)

But when you-- when you for instance left to do rec hall, or go visit the counselor, had a defense attorney meeting, and you walked by at time other cells, and they were the same as yours?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Now to talk about the smock that you-- you showed or you demonstrated for the Court yesterday.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Yesterday, you testified at one point you were stuck in your smock and Corporal Sanders had to assist you in getting your arms out?

Pfc. Manning

[missed but affirmative as in, 'Yes, sir']

Prosecution (Fein)

And, another incident occurred on about 13 March 2011?

Pfc. Manning

I don't recall the date.  It was mid-March. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, that night that your arms got stuck, you decided to sleep with your arms inside the smock?

Pfc. Manning

I believe I got into that position as I was falling asleep.  So, I-- I might have naturally just done that, not really aware of, you know, doing it purposely, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you were told not to put your arms inside of the smock?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

That you needed a blanket to cover up your arms if they got cold?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Now to go...to go prior to showing up in Quantico.  I'd like to focus your attention on Kuwait.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

While in Kuwait you admitted to being suicidal?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You admitted to making two nooses and scavenged for metal objects that could cause harm to yourself?

Pfc. Manning

I don't know about the metal objects.  And, I don't know about two nooses. 

I certainly made one...I certainly made one that I know of, sir. I-- the sheet noose, in particular, the one that I remember, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, when speaking to your psychiatrist downrange, Captain Richardson.--

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--about your suicidal ideation, did you describe yourself as being patient?

Pfc. Manning

I'm not-- I'm not sure.  I just remember being patient wanting to get off of suicide risk.  I don't know if there was a misinterpretation of that.  But, I could see how my words were construed that way or [missed a few words] Captain Richardson.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.  And then-- when you arrived in Quantico-- well you arrived in Quantico on 29 July 2010?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, when you arrived on your in processing form, you stated to the question, 'Have you ever considered suicide?' you checked the box, yes?

Pfc. Manning

I was-- I was told that I had to by-- I mean, they didn't tell me I had to.  They said-- cause as I'm going through I have the-- I had the guards assisting-- assisting me.

I mean I was-- I was in restraints, so I couldn't complete the paperwork without them.  And, I didn't think that they were sort of observing whatever I wrote, and everything else. 

But, they-- Corporal-- then Corporal Hanks-- Gunnery Sergeant Hanks instructed-- instructed me that I had to answer everything in particular-- in that row and I did not.  I mean I did do that.  I put a 'not' in there, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, he didn't order you to say, 'Yes' or 'No' in the check box?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, Sir.  He just asked the question, you know, 'You are on suicide risk. You were on suicide risk in Kuwait.  Shouldn't you...?'  It was more of an implied question, rather than order, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, for the question, 'Have you ever considered suicide?' you checked the box, yes?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, Sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, then on that same form there is a space to where you can fill in any comments?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you, in your own handwriting wrote, 'Always planning, and never acting'.

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  I was told that if I checked the box that I had to put something down in that particular location.  I could have put [missed word].  I could have put something in...something other than that.  That is what I put down there, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Now to speak about the two nooses, what has been marked as-- well photo substitution as appellate exhibit 416, your Honor.  Do you recognize this sheet?

Pfc. Manning

I do, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You do?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Is this the sheet that you made a noose out of?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Your Honor, what has been marked as appellate exhibit 417.  Private First Class Manning, do you recognize these sandbag ties?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.  Those were found-- I was told that those were found in my cell, and yes, they are sandbag ties.

Prosecution (Fein)

And the noose that you made out of these sandbag ties?

Pfc. Manning

I don't recall-- I don't recall constructing a noosed out of them, but they were found in my cell.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.  What about the two metal objects that were also collected by CID at the same time?

Pfc. Manning

Those were found in my-- near my cell, or outside my cell, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. Now to focus your time, or continue to focusing your time at the beginning-- your time at Quantico, when asked by Gunny Blenis at the beginning when you started at Quantico, you told him that you had made a noose out of sandbag ties?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.  I told him that sandbag-- that I had [missed] had been to me that sandbag ties were found in my cell at a particular moment, and that I didn't just do that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, but you also-- didn't-- well, did you tell him about the bed sheet noose?

Pfc. Manning

I did, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

That is his-- just to be clear I am talking about when you first arrived, in your first counseling session.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Not in subsequent ones?

Pfc. Manning

End of July 2010.

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes.

Pfc. Manning

[Missed.  Not clear if Manning said, 'about that time']

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.  And, you did or did not tell him also about the two metal objects that were also found?

Pfc. Manning

I did not.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, what I would like to do now is-- is kind of the same line of questioning about your suicidal ideations, focus on 7 January 2011?  As you probably remember yesterday you testified that, that is when you finally decided to submit a chit, a DD Form 5-10, about your POI status?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, that was on 7 January?  That date is when you decided to ask for a review of your classification status?

Pfc. Manning

To the commander, yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, and can you describe for the Court the process of how you submit that chit to the commander?

Pfc. Manning

I requested for a DD Form 5-10, which is-- the Marines Corps calls it's forms 'chits'.  So, it is referred to as a 5-10 'chit'. 

And then I requested for-- and I had to do this during correspondence time, sir. 

So, I was given a pen.  And, I filled out-- I filled out the necessary portion section 'request to'.  And, I kept-- and I filled out one, and then I filled out another, labeled as 'copy', and then initialed that one, which I'd have, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then once you fill out the document, what do you physically do with it?

Pfc. Manning

I had the option of either giving to the guard or requesting for the cart to actually be-- for the special-- for the forms that were written for the commander had a cart, in which there were two mail boxes.  One for, I think the Inspector General and one for the commander. 

And, I place the one for the commander-- I asked, Lance Corporal Bell, to put it into the-- to the mailbox-- the box for the Brig CO [Commanding Officer] the [missed] outbox, or drop box.

And then, he placed it in it, or I-- or I did. So, [missed] through the feed tray, and put it in, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, so like this old ballot box had a lock on it?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, the guards can't just poke them in and take out anything that is submitted by a detainee?

Pfc. Manning

Correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

So it's for the IG and the Brig CIO?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, so you submitted that on 21 January or 7 January?

Pfc. Manning

On 7...on 7 January, and I filled out two.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

So, I filled out one for my-- my [missed].  I put in a 5-10 chit in mid-December and I don't know if that ever got anywhere.  If it got lost or [missed], sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, why didn't the...December was that in the box, or did you give that to the guard?

Pfc. Manning

I gave that to just the guard.  I did not put it in the box.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, that was a chit that you filled out for anyone in the facility, but not the one specifically designed for the Brig CO [Commanding Officer]?

Pfc. Manning

Correct.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, the one that you filled out on 7 January and dated 7 January on the top, right on the form, that one you submitted it went into the box, the locked box?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

When?

Pfc. Manning

That was 7 January of 2011?

Prosecution (Fein)

Thank you.  And was that chit that you submitted to Chief Averhart in a locked box, was that responded to?

Pfc. Manning

Not immediately, Sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. But, when was it responded to?

Pfc. Manning

It might have been sometime a week maybe two weeks later.  I had brought it up with my chain of command, like company commander, and then--

Prosecution (Fein)

--[missed]

Pfc. Manning

--it's Captain Casamatta.  That was my company commander, so.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, what did you request in that chit?

Pfc. Manning

I requested-- I don't remember-- I don't remember-- I don't recall exactly what I was requesting from it, but essentially I outlined the sections of the Brig order that I looked at that I was referencing.

And, I requested for a Classification & Assignment board, or to at least to attend one or have-- have-- have one in regards to my prevention of injury status, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, on 21 January you went before the board?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, on 21 January 2011, you appeared before the C&A board?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.  I physically attended that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, when you attended there, you were asked why you had made the statement, 'Always planning, and never acting'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you answered then that-- that statement, when you had made it originally may have been false?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then another member of the board-- there's three members of the board?

Pfc. Manning

There were three in attendance. There was Gunnery Sergeant Blenis-- then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, Gunnery Sergeant Fuller, and another like a member, but he's a Staff Sergeant.  I don't recall.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, then another member of the board said, 'If that may have been false, then should we believe-- why should we believe whether you are going to harm yourself today?'

Pfc. Manning

Yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

And you answered, 'yes' to that?

Pfc. Manning

It was a lot more of a-- it wasn't just the 'yes', sir.  It was part of a-- of a lengthy sort of-- you know, philosophical-- I mean that was a philosophical question. 

So, I did that-- said, 'This is a philosophical question, [missed word],' sir.  It was a more general answer-- wasn't-- he wanted an intellectual answer to that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, what was the, I guess, the intellectual answer?

Pfc. Manning

I mean there's-- I mean, there's-- there's a lot of things in regards to, you know, whether something is false or otherwise something is true, you know-- if he was infallible and, you know it's hard to-- it's hard to gauge things, you know, without evidence.  So, that-- I was just pretty broad with that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, what about evidence? But, then again on the form that they were referencing at the time and they were discussing--

Pfc. Manning

--that is correct, Sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--what you had written, which was 'Always planning'-- in your handwriting, 'Always planning, never acting'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But then you said, that you didn't really mean that?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, so this-- this intellectual conversation that you, I guess in your eyes, finally getting at the Brig, was about whether you meant it then or you were being truthful today, then, on 21 January, that you were not suicidal?

Pfc. Manning

I-- I thought it was more about-- about, at that particular time-- and I didn't-- I mean I didn't-- I didn't realize that they were trying to do that, but I was thinking at that particular moment.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.  And, then after that the third member of the board actually reiterated and asked you, 'Do you understand the question?'  Just to make sure there was no confusion, and you answered, 'yes'.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, on 21 January 2011, when you went before the board for the first time, when asked you still hadn't provided the Brig officials with a clear answer of what you meant, when you said, 'Always planning, never acting'?

Pfc. Manning

I did-- I did say that it might have been sarcastic, sir. 

It was a sarcastic answer, given, you know, just out on a whim, because I knew I was going to be placed on suicide risk status. 

I mean that was-- I had been told that. And, because I was placed on it in Kuwait, sir, it didn't really make a difference, what answer I gave, because-- I mean-- I was going to be placed on the same status, sir. [Missed a statement.]

Prosecution (Fein)

But, if that was the reason, then why would you ask then to go before the board? 

Cause this was, you had said that this was your first chance that you had thought about, I mean that is what you said yesterday-- to get before the board to tell them your side of the story about why you shouldn't be on POI?

Pfc. Manning

Right.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, then when you are given the opportunity, you didn't-- you didn't take it?

Pfc. Manning

I did, as far-- as far I understood the process, I did.  I just told them that today, you know-- in January 2011-- again January 2011, I am not suicidal. 

I'm not trying-- I am not trying to harm myself or anything like that, you know, I didn't understand the relevance of-- and that one of the things-- and I think that was the issue I was having, is that I didn't understand the relevance of the July 29, 2010 form-- cause it was so far back. 

I hadn't even-- I had actually forgotten that-- that had even been written down, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, on 21 January you're saying, something you actually said yesterday too, at that board your first chance to really confront these issues--

Pfc. Manning

--yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--that-- well, your thought of confronting these issues, you had forgotten what you had written down?

Pfc. Manning

I had forgotten about that form, yes.  I forgotten about the intake form.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.  Are you familiar when you and your defense counsel submitted a 138 complaint?

Pfc. Manning

You know, sir, I know that I put-- I know that-- I think I told the Brig staff about it before it was filed--

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

--sir.  I knew-- cause I knew what he was gathering, I just didn't know when Mr. Coombs had officially filed it, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So, when he officially filed it on 19 January, two days before the board, that laid out everything we have been talking about, including the original form classification--

Pfc. Manning

--yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

--you didn't know-- you didn't remember until 21 January that, that's what you wrote on the form?

Pfc. Manning

I had completely forgot about that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, even though on 18 January, when the video that we watched yesterday was filled, and you had the discussion with Chief Blenis about that, you didn't remember three days later at the C&A board?

Pfc. Manning

Wasn't the C&A before that, sir?

Prosecution (Fein)

No.  The C&A board was on 21 January.  The video that we watched yesterday was filmed on 18 January.

Pfc. Manning

Okay, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you had that discussion on that video we watched yesterday with Chief Blenis, about why did you write on the form, why did you make the nooses, why there are inconsistencies there, and you both had a dialogue back and forth...

Pfc. Manning

--parts of it.

Prosecution (Fein)

--so then when you had the chance to go before the board on 21 January, you didn't take that opportunity to even explain to the three board panel, why it was that you made that decision to write that down on the form?

Pfc. Manning

I did.  I mean-- whenever asked about it, I did.  At least, I felt I did, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you just said that you didn't remember writing that?

Pfc. Manning

I'd-- I'd forgotten about the form.  That is what I said.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.  So in that 3 day period you had forgotten about the form?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

I would like to do now-- kind of-- direct your attention to-- is the different avenues that you had to logged complaints of seek redress. 

You just spoke about one, and article 138 process.  Did you know about the 138 process before being, I guess, detained in pretrial confinement?

Pfc. Manning

I had seen an ask.com article about it in 2009, but I had never really gotten into such-- the depth of it, sir. 

So, I knew that it existed, sir, but not really in terms of exact context [missed a few words], sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

I assume also it is not something that is normally talked about everyday, the 138 process?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, Sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, you did submit through counsel on 19 January an Article 138 complaint?

Pfc. Manning

In January, yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, yesterday you testified about the MRE [Military Rules for Evidence] 305(g) re-evaluation of your pretrial confinement status to your UCMJ [Uniform Code of Military Justice] command, you submitted on 13 January 2011?

Pfc. Manning

That's the Special Court Martial Convening Authority?

Prosecution (Fein)

To Colonel Coffman?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You are also aware that-- that Mr. Coombs on your behalf, submitted to Chief Averhart directly a memo requesting re-evaluation on 5 January 2011?

Pfc. Manning

On 5 January?  I don't-- I don't recall that one, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

I had put in-- I had put in the 5-10 not realizing that, that had [missed word], sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.

Pfc. Manning

I thought I was doing that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, I am actually talking about something completely different, so you did, at least from the documentation in discovery, you did file a 5-10; but I am just talking about separately on 5 January, that your defense counsel on your behalf submitted directly to Chief Averhart, a memo request?

Pfc. Manning

Okay, yes, sir.  I did not-- I did not recall that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. So-- so these three formal-- more formal requests were submitted on your behalf, and then like you just talked about, the fourth way, is you had the chit and DD 5-10 process either informally with a guard or formally through the locked box?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, Sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you also had other avenues to seek redress directly, didn't you?  You did?

Pfc. Manning

I mean, I can verbally ask, that's one.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, Colonel Oltman visited you periodically?

Pfc. Manning

A colonel did, a Marines colonel.  I don't-- I don't-- they came through periodically, sir.  I don't-- they didn't really introduce themselves very [deeply?], sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.  Cause I don't think there were even name tags given?

Pfc. Manning

They do, but I don't-- I look at the rank first.  Or I look at it--

Prosecution (Fein)

Sure.  That makes sense.  But, periodically Marines colonels, or a colonel, multiple colonels would come through?  And, have discussion with you?

Pfc. Manning

I wouldn't-- well, they would come by and I would see them, and they would see me, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

You had other avenues of using privileged communication?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir, [missed statement].

Prosecution (Fein)

[Missed] [Sergeant? David? First?].  He's a Chaplain, visit you?

Pfc. Manning

I did have a chaplain visit me, yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Did you make any special requests to have certain chaplains visit you?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.  We had a chaplain that came by weekly, if not weekly, then at least once or a few times a month, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you mentioned the IG.  You know that you had a lock box that you could submit issues to the Inspector General?

Pfc. Manning

I did.  I-- it was also, I 'm not familiar with how the [missed word] system works, because the requests [missed] system as well. 

But, I-- on both of those, the Inspector General and request [missed] for the Marine Corps.  I was not familiar with how that process works.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, when the cart would roll by there was a box that you could submit some papers in, at least, maybe a form, maybe not, but some-- something in a locked box to get to the IG?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Also, members of your command, they visited you, almost every week?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. At least once every week, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

We will talk about that in a little bit, but-- so, you had a lot of options to exercise as far as getting redress or lodging any forms of complaints about your treatments status or anything else going on?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you never asked the chaplain to help you with anything?

Pfc. Manning

No.  I mentioned about the prevention of injury with the chaplain pretty frequently, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Did you ever ask a chaplain to assist you in understanding why or to change your status?

Pfc. Manning

I talked to him about it.  I didn't necessarily make a formal request with him, but I mentioned the fact that I really wanted to get off of the status, and then I stopped.  

I was surprised that I was still on it.  And, you know we talked, and then-- he was somebody that, you know-- and we had-- he kept-- he was the only other person that I could talk to on sort of an 'at level' basis, sir. 

But he had, I mean, he had other-- he didn't have a lot of time.  So, I didn't [missed statement] him or anything. And, I am not-- I'm not a religious person, but [missed statement]. I would still talk with him.

Prosecution (Fein)

What do you mean by 'at level', like you just said it today, and you said it many times yesterday?  What do you mean by 'at level' basis?

Pfc. Manning

It's-- it's-- there's a moment-- I mean as a junior enlisted person--  that I'm engaged at to where you can speak with a-- somebody that is of a higher rank with you, you know, where you-- the ranks are-- it's-- it's set aside for a moment, sir, but it [missed a phrase] a person to person conversation, as opposed to a subordinate and a superior, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.  Is it the rank that is set aside or is it just being completely relaxed and having this kind of intellectual conversation?

Pfc. Manning

It's-- it's-- I'd say it is both, sir.  Cause-- I mean, you really do have to-- at that moment in my mind, sir, sort of set aside the fact that you're in a subordinate and a superior relationship.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. And, what was the Chaplain's name that you said you talked all the time about your POI status?

Pfc. Manning

I don't recall his name.  I filled-- I gave to-- I gave to-- I put-- I remember that I told Captain Casamatta his name whenever he put that down on the form.  But, I don't-- I don't recall his name.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, it was a male chaplain?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, maybe Marines don't have chaplains?

Pfc. Manning

I guess-- I guess he was.  He wore the Marines Corps uniform, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.  It was the ACU uniform?

Pfc. Manning

MARPATs.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.  Did you ever file anything into the IG slot that was locked and would go right to the IG?

Pfc. Manning

No, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Earlier you spoke about the chit's, DD form 5-10s?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, you filed six chits while you're at Quantico, correct?

Pfc. Manning

I think I filed more, but some-- some-- they had a tendency-- some of the ones that were given just directly to the guards had a tendency of going missing.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well I think you are right, first off because I can't count [missed]. So, at least nine?

Pfc. Manning

I would say it would have to be at least-- at least a dozen, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And you knew about this chit DD form 5-10 process from the day you in-processed?

Pfc. Manning

From the day I in processed at Kuwait.

Prosecution (Fein)

Oh.  You knew about it in Kuwait?

Pfc. Manning

Yes.  All-- all military correction facilities utilized the DD form-- the DD form 5-10 system or a modification like that.

Prosecution (Fein)

What do they call it at the JRCF?

Pfc. Manning

They modify it to their military correctional complex 5-10 forms.  So, that it's a modified DD form 5-10.  They just remove some of the administrative things for the facility they use it as, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Does it have a common name other than like, 'chit' that they use at--

Pfc. Manning

Well--

Prosecution (Fein)

--[missed last few words].

Pfc. Manning

[Missed].

Prosecution (Fein)

Makes sense.  I would like to go through some of these.  If you don't remember, please let me know, and I will help refresh your memory?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

The one that you dated on the 7th of January 2011, Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart, that was the one that you put into a locked box for him?

Pfc. Manning

Correct, sir.  And I-- and I-- and I made a duplicate for my own purposes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And you wrote on there, 'request lifting' or 'subject for purposes of the interview'-- now they use the term interview, is it really-- does it always necessarily mean 'interview' like one on one interview?

Pfc. Manning

No.  It's just the way the form is set up, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, what-- what is-- what is the different ways you can use this form?

Pfc. Manning

So, you can use it just to request to speak to somebody.  You can sometimes use it just for anything-- put your-- just your request in general without wanting to see anybody. 

You can-- basically it's your-- it's the formal-- it's the semi formal way of communicating with the staff at a correctional facility [missed word], sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.  So, on this one dated 7 January, you wrote, 'request lifting your prevention of injury status and custody classification review including Brig justification of MAX custody status'?  And, then you cited the different rules within the regulations?

Pfc. Manning

The-- the-- I only had access to the Brig Order at that time, sir, so.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.  So, the rules and regulations of the Brig?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

On 4 January-- so one submitted three days beforehand, you did one requesting books from your aunt?

Pfc. Manning

4 January?

Prosecution (Fein)

Yes.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, 2011?

Pfc. Manning

2011?  Yes, I think so.

Prosecution (Fein)

Specifically, even the books you were asking for you talked about yesterday, 'People's History of the United States', 'A Journey in my Political Life', 'Good Soldier' David Finkel-- so, you requested that.  Did you get those books?

Pfc. Manning

Some of them.  I put a-- I put a-- I put a broad list of them.  I didn't-- they weren't necessarily books that I was going to receive.  Just a-- I put a-- sort of a shot gun approach, which one's my aunt was going to send me.

Prosecution (Fein)

By shot gun approach, you mean just everything you could think of she'll send, and hopefully some of the-- some of them will show up?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.  And, when they showed up, did you get those books by the Brig?

Pfc. Manning

Not-- not immediately, but I did eventually get them. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, they approved you receiving books, and you received them?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.  They have a-- they have a process, but I forgot how exactly that worked, but they had a-- they had a process [missed a few words].

Prosecution (Fein)

On the 19th of December of 2010, you submitted a request for an emergency phone call with attorney reference Vice President Joseph Biden?

Pfc. Manning

That is correct, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And, did you get that phone call with your attorney?

Pfc. Manning

I don't know.  I had a-- I eventually got an attorney phone call.  I was requesting one more immediately than that, because I had heard something strange going on, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay.  Well did you talk to him the next day at 12:25?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, Sir.  But, I-- I think the immediacy went away after that [missed].

Prosecution (Fein)

But, you didn't at the time necessarily know if it was cause your attorney couldn't be gotten a hold of or whether they couldn't figure out the system to make it happen?

Pfc. Manning

Correct. I'm not privy to that.

Prosecution (Fein)

Sure.  On 13 December 2010, so a few days, almost a week before the Vice President Biden chit, you asked for 'request gift books from family and friends for online purchases do not know what the contents of the books are'?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So is that again the shot gun approach [missed] you don't know even what they are, but you just want them?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.  And, that was denied, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

I'm sorry, what?

Pfc. Manning

And, that was denied, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, and then how-- how about-- how did-- explain to the Court how it is you would know to even submit these chits for these types of requests.

Pfc. Manning

The process is outlined in there-- in the facility's 'Rules and Regulation for'-- that they issue to an inmate, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Well, I assume that no need to even [missed a few words ask? the? Marines?], you would find out from your family and friends that you wer-- .they were intending to send you something?

Pfc. Manning

Sometimes in [conferences?], sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And-- and then you would then ask to get the ones that arrived [missed word]?

Pfc. Manning

Sometimes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And then the Brig would have to react based off your request? Answer your requests?

Pfc. Manning

Of course. I mean [missed statement].

Prosecution (Fein)

So, on the 13 of December it was denied, but you were also told that it was denied that you needed some specificity, so they could put it through that process that you just spoke of?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

As you [missed] back in time, so the 21st of November 2010--

Pfc. Manning

--[missed phrase]

Prosecution (Fein)