US v. Pfc. Manning is being conducted in de facto secrecy. For more information on the lack of public and press access to United States v. Pfc. Manning, visit the Center for Constitutional Rights, which filed a petition requesting the Army Court of Criminal Appeals (ACCA) "to order the Judge to grant the public and press access to the government's motion papers, the court's own orders, and transcripts of proceedings, none of which have been made public to date."
This transcript of Pfc. Manning's testimony at his Article 13 motion hearing was taken at Fort Meade, Maryland on November 29th and 30th, 2012.
See Transcript of US v Pfc. Manning, Article 39(a), 11/29/12
[DEFENSE EXAMINATION OF PFC. MANNING ON NOVEMBER 29, 2012]
Pfc. Manning I know this is a little nerve
racking. So what we are going to do, is we are going to ease into this, and
just take a little bit of time.
Alright, I want to first start off by asking
some questions about when you were detained in Iraq. Okay?
Alright, do you recall the date that you were
initially detained by [Army] CID?
It was May 27 of 2010.
And, how did CID first approach you?
CID first came to-- well I was first in the
Supply-- I was in the Supply office at the Brigade annex, which was a separate
building from Brigade headquarters at FOB Hammer in Iraq, and I was-- and then,
I was escorted by the Supply NCOIC [Non Commissioned Officer in Charge] to an
interview room. It was a conference
room that had been turned into an interview room. And, I knew that--
When you walked in, what did you see-- when you
walked into that?
There was a table and two CID agents and a
civilian agent that was unidentified.
I don't know what agency of anything.
And, what happened after you were brought into
the room with CID?
They gave me my rights waiver form, which I did
not-- I did not waive my right to an attorney. They read through that and filled it
And, after electing not to waive your rights,
then what happened?
So, I sat in there for about an hour and a half, and then they came
into-- they returned with brown paper bags with all of my belongings from the
CHU [Compartmentalized Housing Unit] that were electronic-- and they had that
outside the interview room. So, the
interview room [missed a few words].
When you say CHU that is your living quarters?
Yes, the Compartmentalized Housing Unit at FOB
And, after this time period, were you required
to be escorted, where ever you went?
I was required to be escorted everywhere I went
except for in the shower at the-- whenever I went into the shower trailer. They had-- I wouldn't have somebody
there at all times for that. So, I
had some privacy.
And, did you at that point realize you were in pretrial confinement?
I did not sir, no.
When did you first realize that you were
actually were in pretrial confinement?
It was a few days later. I think it was two or three days later
when I was transferred to-- we went to-- I was escorted, along with the
prosecution to Camp Victory[BFIF?] in Iraq to I think it was Camp Liberty, where
we had our pretrial confinement hearing.
Did you recall the date of your pretrial confinement hearing?
I don't remember the exact date. I think it was the night of the 29th or
the 30th of May 2010, sir.
And, where-- I guess-- what happened at this
hearing once you had the pretrial confinement hearing?
Well I was-- we argued our points but I was
placed-- but, I continued to be placed by the magistrate into pretrial confinement,
And, after the pretrial confinement hearing was
completed, where were you taken?
I was taken-- we-- we had two escorts from my
unit. They were from my
company. We transferred to Camp
Arifjan overnight. So, it took
about 24 hours in transit. It's the
logistics of being downrange. It
took a while to get there, but we finally-- I finally arrived at Camp Arifjan
And where were you held when you first arrived
at Camp Arifjan?
After an initial intake at the trailer, I was
brought to a tent building hybrid.
And, inside of it, there were two cage like cells. And, there is where I was held for the
first 72 hours, I believe, sir.
So, can you describe the area. So, it was a tent, and there were two
cells inside of it?
There were two cage like contraptions that-- they
were about eight by eight by, maybe, another eight cubed. So, it is a cube, and there is a rack
and a toilet in there.
When you say rack, a bed?
The Navy calls their beds racks.
So, that was where I slept.
So, there were two of these in this tent. Was there anyone else held in the other
Nobody was in the other cell, cage. I don't
know what to call it, sir.
And, during the time that you were there. You said that you were held there for
about 72 hours?
It was a-- their indoctrination period.
And, what were you doing, during those 72
I had-- I had their 'Manual for Guidance of
Inmates' which is just basically their booklet on all the rules and what is
expected of me at the facility.
And, I read through that, and it was pretty
much the only thing I really could do.
I mean, I had sheet and a pillow, and some blankets, and some changes of
uniform, and some toiletry items, but I just stayed in there, except for going
Where you allowed to speak to anyone when you
were in the 72 hour hold?
No, sir, I was not.
Where you allowed to make any phone calls?
No, sir I was not. Well, I did interact briefly with the
guards as they gave me meals. They
brought the meals to my cell.
Where did you go to after this 72 hours?
They brought me to-- it was a tent with the
other pretrial detainees that were at Camp Arifjan, and that's were I stayed
during the day time [missed a word], and I slept at night.
And, before you were transferred to this other
tent, we will talk about your conditions there, do you recall collapsing in
your cell in the-- during that 72 period?
I don't remember if it was the second day I was there or not,
but—and, I don't recall who exactly was there, but the lights weren't
on—and, the air conditioning system was not working inside the tent, so
it was hot in there.
It was dark. They had a door. So, it was still a tent, but it had a
physical door that was built into it—and, two figures came in.
They started talking to me. I could not really understand what they
were saying, and then I just faded out, and the next thing I knew I had the
Navy corpsmen, you know, 'Are you okay?' He was asking me if I was okay, and I
said , 'Yes.' I think I was just dehydrated, cause, you know, it was hot in
Now, when you got transferred to the general population tent. Can you describe that for Colonel Lind
Yes, it is a twenty-man tent. So, it is roughly the size of the-- maybe
twice the size of the panel area [in the Courtroom]. So, not horribly huge, but enough for
twenty men-- for twenty soldiers to live in, you know. And they had bunks inside of there-- maybe
eight bunks. So, they were standard
barracks bunks, metal bunks, and that is what--
So, you weren't in a cell, you got put into the
It was an open bay area. It
was still a tent, but like an open bay area.
And, when you were transferred there, how many
detainees where in that open bay tent?
There were usually between three to six there,
And, what time would you start your day when
you were in that open bay tent?
We-- Reveille which they called-- The wake up call was reveille-- They
called 'reveille' at 22 hundred, so at the-- right after sunset we were woken
up, and we were-- that is whenever our day started.
Alright, so if I am understanding correctly. You were not on a normal day/night
--your day started at 22 hundred hours?
When did your day end?
Our day ended at, I believe, it was at 13 or 14
hundred the proceeding day.
And what would you do on a typical day?
Normally, we would-- first have a brief
recreation call, exercise call, which we could walk around outside. There was a track area that was around--
in between the double fences of the facility.
And, then we would go to chow. We had a be back
to the giant facility tent. We
would be escorted to the dining facility tent, and we would stay there. And, then we stayed in a recreation tent
for other times-- other lengthy time periods.
And, when you are-- when you are in the
recreation tent what could you do?
There was a TV set, an old CRT TV set. There was a VHS player, and some library
books, and a lot of old VHS tapes.
How many hours out of the day would you be in
the tent, excluding the hours that you were sleeping?
Excluding the hours that I was sleeping, we
would either spend between four and ten hours inside of that tent. Although
other times we spent, where if we weren't in-- we spent time in there. The
reason why there is quite a large discrepancy is because there's a-- rec [recreation]
we would spend time in the recreation tent or with the TV.
So, during this time, were you able to call anyone?
We had limited phone privileges that were early in our day-- so early
in-- in the middle of the night, so around afternoon stateside time. So, we could-- it worked for most people
to be able to call their families and things.
And, were you able to call your family?
I didn't have a lot of phone numbers, so. I had my aunt's phone number. That is one. I memorized that. So, I called. So, yes. I did call family, or, I called, in
particular, my aunt.
And, how did it feel to be able to speak to a
It felt really good to finally reconnect with somebody. It had been nine days, I think, that I
had no contact with family at that point.
And, it was good to know that I wasn't fully
cut off from the world, for at least those ten to fifteen minutes that we were
authorized for that phone call-- for those phone calls.
Were you also able to speak with legal counsel
for this time?
We had attorney phone calls that would be scheduled by our-- by the TDS [Trial
Defense Service] counsel. And,
those were every-- I mean, they had a special area for those phone-- for those
phone calls, but the TDS counsel I had didn't really call a lot, at that time.
Did there come a time when you were removed
from the open bay tent back to a segregated tent?
I remember-- I think about two weeks into-- maybe a little bit less-- might
have been actually just one week of being there.
I was put back into, and I stayed in the segregated--
the tent-- the tent with the cages and cells where I [missed a few words]
So, that would be roughly around the middle of
June you think?
So I would guess between the 14 and 18 June, sir.
And, did they tell you why you were being
removed to the administrative segregation tent?
I don't-- I don't remember exactly what the
reasons were, sir. I don't know, if
you have anything to remind me.
No. I don't have any documentation of
that. So, can you describe the cell
that you were moved to?
It was the same cell that I was in for the reception
time period, except I was able-- So
I had my sheets, blanket, and changes of clothes, hygiene items, et
So, this is the same unit, but I would go out
as I was-- I was just separated from everybody else during the time period in
which they were in the tents. So, I
still went to the recreation tent.
I still went to the dining facility tent, et cetera.
So, even though you were held in the 'admin
seg' tent you still went to the dining facility with the other pretrial
confinees? You still went to
recreation with other pretrial confinees?
That is correct, sir.
Was anyone else in the cell with you at this
There was another cell adjacent to it. But, nobody was in it, sir.
And, what were you allowed to have within your
Again, it was sheets, pillow, pillow case, my
uniform, so a couple changes of clothes, some books that I checked out of the
library, and, yeah, that was—So, most of the items that I was authorized
to have I kept inside the cell.
Where was this cell-- this admin segregation
tent cell in relation to the tent that you were held at, with the open bay?
It was approximately, I would say, eight or ten
meters away, with a partition fence.
So, within close proximity to where you were
And, can you describe for Colonel Lind, your
typical day, once you were in this admin seg tent?
It was almost identical to the one before,
except instead of spending time in the open bay tent with the bunks. I would spend that time in my
How many hours a day do you think you were held
in your segregation cell by yourself?
Again, for four to eight. So that same time period, where I was in
the open bay tent, transferred over into being in that other tent.
How did being held separately from everyone
else impact you?
I didn't talk to people as much-- I mean it was
only during the recreation calls and things. So, yeah—And, spending that time
alone-- I mean, it was such a-- I didn't know what was going on and, you know, in
terms of the case or anything like that.
I didn't have, like, formal charges or anything.
Really didn't know what was going on, or
anything like that. So, I was
really limited in my interactions with anybody. So, it was a little draining.
It was actually very draining.
And, how were you-- were you sleeping much
during this time period?
It was-- my nights were my days, and my days were my nights, so it all
blended together after a couple days.
Now, during the deployment you also worked on
the night shift is that true?
Yes, I did sir.
Did you have problems sleeping during the
Yes, I did sir, and I brought that to the attention
of the NCOIC [Non Commissioned Officer in Charge] quite often.
So, the combination of not really getting a lot
of sleep, and then the stress of just being in the cell by yourself, can you
tell Colonel Lind how that was impacting you?
Well, I mean, I am generally a pretty social
and extroverted person, but, you know, was sort of put in that role of just
sort of being there for long periods of time by myself.
Were you still able to make phone calls when
you were in the admin seg tent?
A few-- I think, because I-- I made-- I made, I think, three phone calls
One was to my aunt, because that was the only
phone number that I really had.
And, I think I made two-- I think I made one successful phone call to the
only other number that I knew-- was for my-- the person I was in a relationship
with previously, Tyler Watkins.
I talked to him. But those phone privileges were removed
shortly after my first three phone calls.
So I lost that privilege, I don't know why.
It was never explained to me. But, I lost that privilege pretty
Without having the ability to call family or
call somebody that you were dating at the time, how did that impact you?
Well, I don't know if we were dating. I don't know what the status was at that
time for the relationship. But, you
know, I was in pretty stressful situation.
Not really-- I had really no idea what was going on with anything.
And, you know, I was getting very little
information from Captain Bouchard, the defense attorney that was assigned at
the time, because, he did have a lot of information either. So-- And that became sort of my only
conduit, the one person that I really got any information from.
Because, at Camp Arifjan, they don't allow like
news or-- they don't have any TV.
Like the TV was separate. They
didn't allow radio. So, you didn't
get any current events information.
It was just a contained environment.
Did there come a time when you were no longer
taken out of your cell for the rec hall [recreation hall] and to eat?
And when was this?
I don't recall the dates. I started to really deteriorate in terms
of my awareness of my surroundings and what was going on. I was more insular. More worried about-- just being anxious all the time about
not knowing anything, and being worried.
You know-- days turned to nights.
Nights turned-- I mean everything blended together, and, just sort of
just became more insular, and, I just sort of lived inside my head.
Where were you receiving your chow at this
It was given to me through-- I was staying
inside the administrative cell. So,
back in the cage, and then they would give it to me just as before, whenever I
was in the reception cells.
Did anyone ever explain to you why you were no
longer being taken out of your cell to be with the other detainees?
I didn't have a full-- really good
understanding of the reasons. I
think if somebody had-- I think somebody tried to explain it to me, but again I
was just a mess at that point. I
was really starting to fall apart.
During this time did the guards start
inspecting your cell?
They-- They went through-- They called it a 'shakedown'. It was pretty-- It was-- I mean it got
to the point where they almost did it two to three times a day, where they
would go in.
They would take me out of the cell, and have me
sit down facing away from the cell.
And then, they would just tear apart the-- at all the limited stuff that
I had in the cell. Just throwing it
everywhere. I don't know if they
were searching for anything or if they were looking for anything, but it would
definitely look looked through.
Now, on June 30th 2010, do you recall losing control of yourself on that
day to the point that medical doctors, mental health professionals had to
Very limited-- memory of that. Very vague. I just remember being told about that
Do you recall yelling uncontrollably,
screaming, shaking, babbling, banging your head against your cell and mumbling?
Those details, no. But, I knew that I had-- I had just
fallen apart. I mean I-- everything
is fogging and hazy from that time period.
Do you recall why that happened at all?
Well, I mean-- I usually know what is going
on. I usually have a pretty solid
knowledge of what's going on and I can figure things out-- like in terms of,
you know, my-- like-- like my job,
or, you know, my family. I
usually-- current events that are going on.
I am usually grounded pretty firmly in, like
how I connect to the rest of the world, in those things.
So, after having those cut off, I really
started to just not really get anything.
I just started living inside my-- the limited surroundings that I
My world just shrunk to just Camp Arifjan, and
then to that cage.
And, did you see any documentation at that
point to know that what you experienced apparently was a breakdown or an
What is that, sir?
Did anyone show you anything? Or, did anyone talk to you later-- a
mental health professional-- to explain what you experienced there was a
breakdown or an anxiety attack?
I talked very frequently with mental health professionals-- both at the
Camp Arifjan Hospital. They didn't
have a full time psychiatrist or psychologist at Camp Arifjan itself. They had a medical doctor, a flight
surgeon I think, sir.
And-- but I spoke pretty frequently with
them. It was Lt. Commander Weber
and Captain Richardson at Camp Arifjan Hospital and Mental Clinic. So, they are [missed end of phrase].
And, do you recall during this time making a
noose out of bed sheets?
I mean I just-- I remember-- I mean I don't remember that particular-- I
remember being taken out, and them finding that.
I just remember my stuff being all over the
place. Because, after they started
doing the 'shakedowns', I stopped-- I stopped making my bed and things, you
Because, it was getting-- they were just
tearing up all my stuff up all the time anyway. So, I don't recall making it, but I
remember thinking, you know, 'I am gonna die. I am stuck here in this cage, and I
don't know what is going to happen.'
Like, I mean, I thought I was gonna die in that
cage, and that is how I saw it.
It's like an animal cage.
Did you, at that point, plan on doing anything,
taking your own life?
I certainly contemplated it. I didn't. I mean it was sort of futile at the same
time. I felt at the time there was
no means. Even if I made a noose--
I mean, there wasn't anything I could do with it. I mean, there wasn't anything to hang it
on, like. So, it just felt pointless.
After 30 June and having the breakdown, and
then finding this material in your cell what happened?
They took me out of that cell, and they moved
me to the cell next to it.
They removed some of my clothing, and then they
gave me a smock. They took away my
glasses and everything. So, I had--
So, they put me into the cell adjacent to, but, I was-- they placed me on
suicide watch at that point.
And, how long were you held in this cell?
I believe thirty days with I believe a brief
break for maintenance thing.
I don't remember the timing of that. But, I spent the rest of the time at
Camp Arifjan inside the cell.
So, up until they time that they took you to
During this time, did you ever recall every speaking
with Dr. Richardson?
He was a psychiatrist. I
spoke to him on occasion. I don't
know how often. A lot of the early
time frame of early July is a total blur.
And, why is that?
I had pretty much just given up. I mean, I did not know what was going
on. And, nobody was gonna tell me
And, you know, I remember I had limited contact
I still had attorney phone calls, but I had
like three Navy personnel that would sit around me while I was making these
phone calls. And, we did not feel
comfortable talking to each other over the phone about anything to do with what
--Captain Bouchard knew about the case, because
he did not know a lot at that time.
Do you recall telling Captain Richardson that
you were considering committing suicide?
I don't know how I conveyed it to him, but I
explained what I did-- something similar to what I had just explained
before. That, you know, I had
contemplated it, and, you know, it was-- but, it also seemed pointless at the
I was uncertain. I didn't want to. I didn't-- I didn't want to die. I just wanted to get out of that
cage. I just remember being trapped
on that cage, like all the time.
Do you recall telling him, that if you believe that
you could be successful--
Objection, your Honor. Leading their witness,
If I could finish my question?
I am going to allow it for now. Go ahead.
Do you recall telling Dr. Richardson, that if
you could be successful in committing suicide, you would?
I don't know how-- I don't know how I conveyed that to him, but I did.
And, why were you feeling that way?
It just felt. I just pretty much had given up on a lot
I mean I just remember that my world had just
shrunk. It had just shrunk to
this-- to this eight by eight sort of metal cell, and I didn't know what time
of day it was or anything else.
That was sort of what I was trapped in.
Did Dr. Richardson give you anything to help
you with how you were feeling?
He gave me some medication.
I know it was. It was an
SSRI [Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor].
I don't remember if it was Celexa or
Zoloft. And, then a 'benzo'. I don't recall exactly what it was-- whether
it was clonazepam or something similar.
And, how were you--
How did this medication impact you?
Whenever I take SSRI's-- cause I have taken
them before, I have side effects.
So, I have nose bleeds, nausea for the first
couple days. So I remember
I remember being very-- I wasn't given the full
dosage for Celexa immediately. I
was given a half-- I was given a half dosage for the first week, just to sort
of curb on those initial side effects, and a urinary issues.
Did the medication that you were receiving, the
Celexa or the other medication--
--It was an SSRI, sir.
--did that help you?
I mean, I started to flatten out by about two weeks-- maybe two
weeks. I don't remember the number
of days. It all just came
together. But, halfway through that
And, you say flatten out? What do you mean by that?
Well, I wasn't nearly as anxious. I was talking to the guards that were watching
me, and just sort of-- I felt better at that point.
By, 29 July of 2010, the date that you were
moved from Kuwait and arrived to Quantico, how were you feeling?
By 29 July?
I was feeling better. I was, you know-- felt more stable in
terms of-- I mean I know I am in--
I know I am stuck here, you know. I
don't know what is going to happen or what is going to go on at this point,
but, you know, I figured I would ride it out, whatever it is.
Do you know what happened-- actually, let's go
to the date that you were removed from your cell in Kuwait. When they took you out of your cell, did
you know where you were going?
I had no idea where I was going. I knew that I was leaving the facility.
How did you know that?
They had briefed me. And, when I say they, I mean the
I don't remember who it was. I think it might have been-- I think it
might have been the-- it might have been the executive officer.
I think it was Lt. [Commander? Bar?]-- might
have been, but I think it was also-- I think it was an enlisted-- a senior
enlisted person, sir-- maybe Master Chief or the Chief at the time-- and,
basically said-- said, 'You're being transferred to a different facility. We are not gonna,' you know, 'That is
all the information we have.'
And, then I started gathering my things in the
cell. Cause they kept all my
belongings in the cell next to me, but I was authorized to have them. They started inventorying that.
Describe that day for Colonel Lind. Like what happened once they got done
inventorying, and you were being escorted out?
It was almost sundown. Cause I remember the door was open to
the tent. And, they inventoried my
belongings. And, I was there
present. They gave me-- They took
away the smock and they gave me clothing.
And, then they brought me to the front of the
facility where they had transfer to the medical staff.
I had a full physical done, and I filled out
some-- I filled out some paperwork for receiving my [blinds?].
And, by this time it was dark, so I left the--
so, I left the facility, and it was probably about zero one in the night.
And, where were you taken?
I was taken to a convoy of vehicles to Kuwait
City to the airport at Kuwait City.
And, at this point did you know where you were
going to be going?
I had no idea. I only speculated to where I was
going. I mean, I didn't know if I
was going-- I didn't think I was going anywhere CONUS [Continental United
States]. I thought I was going to
another-- I was hoping Germany-- Mannheim, Germany was a possible option.
Why were you hoping that?
Well, it is not the alternatives which I
speculated on at that time-- which was like Guantanamo Bay, Cuba or Djibouti or
some place, you know, outside of the United States.
Why were you thinking that you might be taken
to some of those places?
I don't know. It was just a-- there was this-- I had
been conveyed some serious charges, but I didn't really have a lot of guidance
legally with Captain Bouchard, because of the limitations of the telephonic-- and
having the guards there listening in-- so I just speculated and guessed.
I mean, I have worked-- I don't know-- I did
not know how the American detention worked for, you know, American
confinees. I knew for other detainees,
but not for me-- not like soldiers for court-martial.
Were you scared what might happen to you?
I was very scared, but again I had no idea.
So, when you arrive at Kuwait City, what
They brought me to a holding area at the
facility. They removed a TV
physically from that holding area, and I sat there for about eight hours until
we got on a charter plane to, I believe-- We got on the plane--
When you got on the plane did you know where
you were going?
I did not, sir. I still had no idea where I was going--
but I was slightly more-- I was suddenly comforted by the fact it was a charter
plane. So, it was a commercial
airliner that was-- there was military personnel being moved somewhere.
Did the captain of the plane make any comments?
The captain went over-- That was how I knew where I was going. The captain went over the intercom and
said, you know, 'Flight time is this.
We will be arriving at Mannheim, Germany,' you know, 'in the next
however many hours-- flight,' you
know, 'altitude.' So, that is how I
managed to figure out where I was going, in terms of that stage of the
And, once you arrived in Germany, what
Again, I was taken to another holding
area. Again, I speculated where I
was going, not knowing. They
removed me completely from the plane.
I was in full restraints. I
was a detainee. Although, I was
still in Army ACU's [Army Combat Uniform].
And, then I was held in one of the terminals in Mannheim, and I think it
was at Mannheim. It was
And, then sat there for about an hour and a half, and then we got back
onto the plane. It was the same
plane we were on before, and the same seating area.
And, at this point, did you know where you were
Again, I found out the same way. It was a different captain, but he said,
you know "Flight time. We should
be arriving at Baltimore Washington International Airport,' you know, so. I knew I was going CONUS at that point,
which was-- at least I was hoping that we were just going to stay CONUS.
And, how were you feeling at that point when
you knew that you were going to be going to the States?
I felt a lot better. I mean, I didn't think I was going to
set foot on American soil for a long time, so. I was elated.
As silly as it sounds, it felt a lot better,
knowing that at least I am going to be-- And, you know, I know Baltimore
Washington International Airport.
So we actually landed and went through customs
just like-- obviously for the soldier portion-- for the charter area-- but,
went through customs just filling out the same-- filled out the same paperwork,
you know, transferred through.
So, it was great to be in familiar
surroundings-- American soil-- BWI [Baltimore Washington International
And, where did you go once you got-- from BWI?
They got a rental car. So, I was in a holding area. So, they transported me very quickly
into the vehicle through the terminal, into the parking or into the bay
Just got into a Dodge Charger-- I think it was
No, it was a Charger.
Oh, and actual car?
And then, where were you taken?
We drove South. And, I eventually figured out from the--
they had Google Maps-- a print out
of the directions to Quantico.
So, I knew then that was the destination.
Alright, so we're now going to talk about your
arrival at Quantico. Before I go in
there, do you need a break or are you okay?
I am good, Sir.
What time did you get to Quantico.
I don't know the exact time. It was early evening. So, maybe about 6 p.m.
And, at this point how long had you been awake?
Over 24 hours with-- I slept for maybe 90
minutes on the plane from Germany to BWI.
And, why did you sleep so little on the plane?
It was difficult. There were restraints and I was-- I was
being-- it wasn't comfortable positions.
It was a coach type seat with full restraints-- so, a body cuff.
So, when you got to Quantico, can you tell Colonel Lind what happens?
Taken to their in processing area-- so through
the side of the facility they have an in processing area for detainees. I was transferred administratively, in
terms of paperwork.
Taken to the changing area, where I was strip
searched-- scars, marks, tattoos is what they normally do. They take notations of that.
They had signs with Marine Corps rank. And, I was-- I had Marine Corps correctional
specialists working. They were doing the strip search and everything--
explaining to me-- well not really explaining-- but telling me what to do at
So, after you got through this, what did the
guards say to you?
What did they say to me? I mean-- I mean it's-- it's-- they are
ordering me to do things. So, I
fill out paperwork mostly.
I was taken to a dark area-- or a dark room
next door, and then I have then Corporal Hanks, you know, ask me a bunch of
question-- like administrative information, suicide risk questions, et cetera,
and filled out paperwork.
And, I spent several hours filling out
At that point, did you-- once you were filling
out paperwork-- did you respond to any questions from the actual guards?
Well, yes. That is what they were doing. They-- I
was-- They would ask me questions, like, 'Do you have any psychological
disorders?' or 'What's your address?' 'What is your name?' Things like that, so.
And, were they telling you whether or not you
were getting any of these answers wrong or right?
Yes, I mean, because it's a-- whenever you-- in
processing into the Marines Corps facility. And, I assume that every correctional
facility I have been to, it is a sort of a 'shark attack' basic training-- called
a 'shark attack' environment where you're-- everything you do is wrong. They are trying to build you up from,
you know, they try to show you who, you know-- that they are the ones that are
in charge. So they-- you know, they
tell you what to do.
I mean, I don't know what a bulk-- I didn't
know what a bulkhead was, and they told me to face the bulkhead, 'Okay,' I felt, 'I don't know what a bulkhead is.'
'Face the bulkhead!' and I learned like Navy
terms as well, and Marine Corps rank and things like that. And everything I did was wrong at that
point, you know, in terms of-- I got rank wrong, and I got all kinds of things
wrong, because I didn't know, so--
--I was learning.
Do you recall ever writing down, 'Always
planning, but never acting' on your intake questionnaire with regards to a
question of suicide?
They-- There was a lot of questions that-- I was swarmed with all the
paperwork, and they were-- most of it was verbal.
So, I said to the suicide questions both times
I said, 'No. Not suicidal.' You
know, but they would ask me questions like, 'Well why were you on suicide-- Why
were you on Suicide Watch then?'
It was, you know-- It was-- They would ask a
question and then would sometimes say I was wrong, you know, in terms of like
my address, and not giving them the Zip Code, 'Are you going to give us the Zip
I mean, and that was sort of the vibe that I
got through that, and asking questions.
And, it was the same with paperwork. I filled out the paperwork, and it was a
page at a time.
So, I would fill out one page, and then they
would-- and then I would have-- I think it was-- it was then Corporal Hanks,
later Sergeant Hanks that filled out or that examined the paperwork, and so I
would have to cross things out, because it was wrong, or, you know, or not what
they were expecting in terms of the dates, you know, they have their dates
And, when I came to that question, they said
that, you know, because I was on suicide watch, I had to put something down on
that. So, I did.
I wasn't thinking to much about what I was putting
down, but, you know, I put it down, and I regret it.
But, it was sort of sarcastic, because I had
spent so much time on suicide watch in Kuwait. I didn't really-- and I had been told by
Master Sergeant Papakie, who briefed me, for a brief period of time that I was
going to be on suicide watch, whenever I was finished, so.
So, that is what I filled out-- the paperwork.
Now, were you eventually moved to a cell?
Later, but I-- I went and talked to Captain
Hocter first. That was the first
time that I had met Captain Hocter.
They took me to an office, one of the medical
offices, and I spoke with him for about an hour and a half.
And, then I returned to filling out paperwork,
but then they moved me to the cell.
It was already past lights out, or 'taps' as
they call it at the Brig.
And, what time would that normally be?
It was 22 hundred, sir. So, it was past 22 hundred, but I was
still filling out paperwork, and again it was very similar.
I would have one sheet of paper examined by the
guard, and looked over for any mistakes or anything.
I just wanted-- at that point I just wanted-- I
think they offered a shower, but I just wanted to go to sleep, because I hadn't
slept in so many hours.
I had been in transit for the last almost two
days-- it felt like, sir.
Alright, so overall, even though being tired,
how did you feel about being at Quantico, and being in the United States?
Oh, it was great, because-- I mean-- I mean I
know it is not the ideal environment, but it is a-- it is a brick and mortar
It's got air conditioning. It's got solid floors, hot and cold
I mean a lot of amenities that I wasn't use to
for that period of time-- for quite a lengthy period of time. So I felt-- And, it was great to be on continental
United States soil.
It was-- that felt like reassurance, especially
being in the DC/Baltimore, Northern Virginia area. I live in Maryland, and so I knew the
area as well, and I knew that family could visit, and I had been told that my
family could visit.
Did you get a visit from your company commander
at this point?
That was the following morning.
And, who was this?
Captain Casamatta. This was my company commander at the
time, and I had-- I didn't know that they had actually PCS [Permanent Change of
Station ] move me to the Military District of Washington.
So, then I was introduced to my new company
commander, First Sergeant-- Captain
Casamatta, and First Sergeant Williams.
They came to me the next day. It was great to talk to them, because I
got a run down of a lot of things I didn't know in terms of PCS move and, you
know, where my belongings were, and what chain of command I fall under and
So, I got a lot explained to me in that time
period. I felt reassured that I had
such an awesome, you know, company commander-- was a very reassuring feeling, you
now, from being in a-- and I know it sounds silly, you know, but, even though
it was Quantico Base Brig-- it's a prison, but, you know, but it was just a
permanent structure, at that time.
Alright, and I imagine once you are at
Quantico, where you able to see family member?
I mean there was an indoctrination period.
So, I was given a booklet on what rules and
regulations I was-- even though I was-- I was on suicide risk status at that
time, but they allowed an exception.
They allowed my aunt to come and visit me. That was the first time I had seen
Where you able to meet with defense counsel?
I had been assigned at that time, Major Hurley as temporary defense
Just for the transition period, so I spoke to
him a few days after-- if not the immediately following my command visit.
And, what sort of status were you on at this
I was placed on-- and I was told when I arrived
there, that I was going to be on the same status as I was in Kuwait, suicide risk
status, and that I would be evaluated, and then I would have, you know, a
classification set in a few days.
Were you told what custody status?
Well, I mean, if you are on-- if you are on POI [Prevention of Injury]
or MAX-- I was on MAX. If you are
on suicide risk status, you are automatically placed on MAX status, so. I was automatic, so.
And, let's talk about some of the-- for a moment-- what it meant to be
on maximum custody status for you? Okay?
How often, where you required to be physically checked?
Well, I had line of sight. So, there was a guard-- this is just a--
Just for MAX. We will talk about the suicide [risk] in
Oh. For MAX status, the facility-- the
Quantico Base Brig MAX status, I believe was, I believe either ten minutes or
five minutes for MAX status.
And, how were you checked when you were on MAX
Well, I was checked more frequently, because my
statuses were-- because I had an additional status added on to-- a part from
the classification with it.
I guess if you calculated, I think they only do
ten minutes checks for MAX status.
But, I don't know, because I was never-- I
never had anything less than five minutes.
And, how would they check you for those five
I mean they would physically-- I mean and when
I say physically I mean they would open-- cause they were in an observation
They would open the door, and ask, you know-- They would verbally ask me if I was okay.
Sometimes they poked their head out the door,
and have line of sight and then ask me.
And, I would always have to respond as a
courtesy to the-- usually they assigned a Lance Corporal for that role, but
sometimes it was a Corporal, and that was how they-- that was how they checked
on me during the daytime.
The SECNAV instructions indicates that if you
are on MAX you are not assigned outside work details. Were you assigned any outside work
Did you even express any interest in being
assigned work details?
It had been conveyed to me by Gunnery Sergeant
Blenis, when he was asking-- whenever he was interviewing me for the first
time, that the jobs were available for, you know, if my status or custody level
So, I said I am more of a clerical guy or good
with paper and stuff, and he was like-- cause I did not know what was
I am not really very good with physical
stuff. So, he told me that the only
thing like that was the library, so I expressed interest in that.
I said that I could probably implement some
kind of system to organize everything, if that wasn't already in place.
And, were you ever assigned duties in the
I was not, sir.
Where were you assigned with regards to a cell?
They kept me-- there were four cells that were
directly in front of an observation booth with a two-- I mean it's a window,
but-- I mean you can only see-- it's tinted-- it's heavily tinted on one
So, you can only see your reflection on the
well lit side. So-- I forget what
it is called-- it's a one-way mirror or one-way glass or one way window-- but I
was held in one of the three. I
think it was-- I stayed-- They moved me around once or twice, but I stayed in
three cells-- one of three cells.
So, two on one side, and one on the other side
of that other observation booth.
And, those that you stayed in, were always
within sight of the observation booth?
I want you to describe your cell, but in order to do that, I want to go ahead
and make use of what we have here in the Courtroom, okay?
[Coombs is referring to an at scale
representation of Pfc. Manning's cell at Quantico made with white paper tape on
the floor of the Courtroom.]
Image source: Clark Stoeckley
So, if you would go head and please step out of
the witness booth-- a the witness chair.
[Pfc. Manning stands up and walk near
Mr. David Coombs.]
First of all what I want to do is--
Mr. Coombs, remember I have the big screen
here. So, it is difficult. I can't see it right now with that.
Ma'am, do you want to reposition or anything?
That's fine. That's fine.
We are going to be walking through here though,
a lot, so of the Court wishes--
Well, I'll stay. I'll move if I have to. Go ahead.
[to Pfc. Manning]
So, actually come up around this side for a
me. That's okay. Now, looking at this, this cell. Do you know the dimensions of the cell
that you were in?
It was roughly six foot by eight foot to
Alright, so what I am going to do. I am just going to ask you to read how
wide this is right now.
[Mr. Coombs pulls out a metal tape measure.]
That is about five eleven, six feet.
And, so six feet.
I don't know how many centimeters.
Well, we will just go ahead and go-- so how far
So, that is 95 inches, eight feet--
Eight feet, okay.
Alright, so your cell, if I am correct, was six
And, it was eight feet long?
Alright, so this map area represents your
living space that you were in at Quantico?
Very [missed word]. Yes, sir.
Alright, so now what I would you do is-- is
lets go ahead and come into the cell--
--and tell me what are some of the things that
we have here.
Can you identify?
[Defense has also used white
paper tape on the floor to outline items within the cell.]
I had a rack that was on a large metal things,
so-- it would be a rack right here, which I slept on.
Okay, and if you would, put 'rack' down onto
where the rack would be.
Right, here Sir.
[Pfc. Manning takes a paper card with
the word, 'rack' written on it and places it in the middle of the white paper
tape outline of the rack within the white paper tape representation of his
Quantico cell on the Courtroom floor.]
Can you identify for the record how high the--
Yes, Ma'am. How high off the ground was the rack?
About two feet, sir.
And the witness displayed that by using a hand gesture two feet off the
ground. Can you tell me what this
I had a toilet and sink in this area, sir. So, there would be a sink right here at
about, like, waist high, sir.
How high-- how high would you say that is?
Maybe, three and a half, four feet, sir. No, it is a little less.
If you can put the sign of sink down, where the
[Pfc. Manning places a sign with the
word 'sink' written on it down in the sink outline made with white paper tape
inside the white paper tape representation of his former Quantico cell.]
And, then you said that this other area was the
It's a-- it comes-- the bowl physically comes
out of the sink.
The metal bowl-- stainless steel bowl-- it's
a-- at a lower level. So, it's
about a foot and a half to the actual seating area of the bowl.
Alright, and if you put the sign where the toilet
[Pfc. Manning places a sign with the
word 'Toilet' written on it down in the toilet outline made with white paper
tape inside the white paper tape representation of his former Quantico cell.]
Now, did the toilet have anything blocking it
in order to obstruct the view from the observation room to the toilet?
The observation room was right here with the
door-- right where Specialist Vincent is.
Alright, so when you say right here towards the
middle the diagram of the cell?
The door to the cell?
--was right here.
Let's go through. When you
say right here, I have capture this for the record. So--
--so, for the door that-- let's talk about the
observation room. Where was the
observation room in relation to your cell?
It was right across from my cell. And, this is assuming it's 191. Then, if it is cell 191, then it was
So, right across but slightly offset. So, maybe two thirds of it was actually
in front of the cell.
Alright, so from the observation room in front
of your cell. They could see
clearly your entire-- your cell, correct?
What I would like you to do now.
We have got some items here.
If you would go ahead and pick up.
Hold on the blanket that was provided. This-- You are holding up what has been
marked appellate exhibit 411.
--an actual photograph of that. And is this the same type of suicide
blanket that you were provided?
Mine was slightly thicker, and made out of a
slightly coarser fabric. This is a little
bit more used. This is more-- the
ones that I was provided were straight out of the box.
And so, how did this blanket differ than the
one that you were given?
Slightly-- Slightly heavier, and a lot less
flexible. It was the same color
So, the one that was slightly heavier and less
flexible is the blanket that you were given?
It was maybe a slightly lighter shade [missed word].
And when you used that blanket did that blanket
impact you in anyway?
I mean even this one isn't very comfortable, but I mean the smock is
actually made out of the exact same fabric that I had for the blanket I was
given. This is--
How, if at all would that blanket affect your
It was a coarse fabric. So, it is not very comfortable. It is abrasive on skin at least. I mean I got-- I had at that point in
time, pretty sensitive skin [missed a few words].
So, that would that be like a carpet burn?
More like a rash. Slight
burn, yes, sir.
Did you ever complain about that to any of the
They-- I don't remember who the original
corpsmen was. I think it was an
E5. So, he was a-- he was a petty
officer second class. I don't
remember his name-- but, to that corpsmen and to the later added corpsmen for
the OCS [Officer Candidate School], which was across the street from the Brig--
special-- not special-- E4, but petty officer, so HM3 [Hospital Corpsman Third Class] Dodsin
[sp.] was the corpsmen, and I would mention it.
But you know-- I mean it became sort of routine
thing that I was-- that I got-- I got a bit of a rash. But, there nothing that he could really
do for it.
If you would put down-- appellate exhibit 411 back.
Yes, sir. Place it here?
Yes, please. Taking now a look at appellate exhibit
415, which is the suicide smock.
Is that the same suicide smock or similar to
what you were given?
This is exactly the same, except mine was brand
new. So, this one is a little bit, slightly
more used, but not by much.
And, so the feel of the material is the same?
The same material. Same
weight. Same color. Same fabric.
--what about the size of this smock?
It is the same size-- made out of the same [missed two words].
If you would please put the suicide smock on just to see the size.
[to Coombs] Do you want me to remove the
That is fine.
[Pfc. Manning removes his uniform
jacket and tears open the industrial Velcro straps of the suicide smock. He dawns the suicide smock which is
enormous on his small frame.]
Pretty strong [missed a few words. The Velcro
strips make a loud noise when ripped open.]
From your memory, is that how the suicide smock
This is a little bit more used, so it is a lot
more flexible. It was a little but
more rigid-- the one that I had, because it was brand new, so.
And, based upon this suicide smock, did you
ever have an experience where it caused you any problems?
I was laying down on the rack trying to sleep and I remember my arms
went into it, and I don't want to do that right now, but my arms got into it
and I got stuck.
And, did you need any assistance getting out of
the suicide smock?
I was still taking some sleep medication at the time, and I had I remember
Corporal Sanders was the guard who actually came to the-- he opened the cell door
and assisted me out of it-- released the [missed word].
It strong, [missed a few words] so I couldn't
get out of it-- [missed word].
If you would, go ahead and take the suicide smock off.
If you would, go ahead and place that back down
Now I would look at appellate exhibit 414. It is identified as the suicide
mattress. Is this the mattress that
you were provided?
The mattress is-- this was very similar to the
mattress I was first mattress I was given, before given the specific suicide
This is the same mattress that all cells in
special quarters one had.
So, this was the mattress that you were given
It is the same type of mattress. The one that I had was slightly
newer. And, so it was-- it was not
as bendy or flexy--
--if that is possible, sir.
I apologize. That could be appellate exhibit 413, the
standard confinement mattress that you just described.
Let's go ahead and take a look at appellate
exhibit 414. If you would, Pfc.
Manning, just come approach appellate exhibit 414.
Can you-- do you recognize this?
No, I do not sir.
Have you ever seen anything like this?
I have seen-- I mean it's got a pillow, so it
is like a-- like a suicide mattress that I was given.
But, the one I had is a lot-- is a lot more
similar to the green one on there.
This one is a lot-- its made out of-- its a lot
more-- it's a lot thicker. Looks more
like an air mattress to me, sir.
So, how was your mattress-- the suicide
mattress that you were provided for the majority of your time there-- how was
that different than this one?
It was more like this green one except brand
new-- like right out-- like had never been ever used before, and-- and it had a
built in pillow just like that.
It wouldn't-- it wouldn't have-- it would have
been a lot harder to bend like this-- like this is very flexible. It was a lot harder to bend.
And, if we take a look now--
--the pillow, which is appellate exhibit
412. Have you ever seen anything
like this before?
I have seen a pillow like this in Kuwait-- at
Were you ever given anything like that at
I was not, sir. I was never issued a pillow at Quantico
Retrieving the exhibit from the witness. Pfc. Manning go head and resume your
position in the stand.
[Pfc. Manning sits back in the witness
So, this cell that we see on the courtroom
floor, how many hours out of the day would you be in this cell?
Depending on what the schedule of calls was for
that day, and visitation to other areas, whether it was a legal visit or a
counselor visit outside of my cell.
It was between 21 and 23 hours-- sometime even
over 23-- as much as 23 and a half hours [missed word].
So, what would you do inside of this six by
eight foot cell for 23 hours a day?
I would normally sit or just do something.
I mean, just try to keep myself occupied. So, I would try to think of something to
do. I would usually sit on the
Sometimes they would allow me to have my legs
up on the rack, in sort of an
Indian style position, but sometimes that was not authorized.
Did you have any natural lighting that was
coming into your cell?
In 191 or 192? No, sir.
Those two cells-- I don't know about the other
cell, because I was only in there for-- the one across from-- I don't know how
long I was there for-- maybe just two days before-- just maintenance or
something like that, so.
But, there was no reasonable way of accessing
natural or indirectly seeing natural light.
You could see the window down the hall, from
the cell-- but if you took your head and put it on the cell door, and looked
through the crack between the cell door and the rest of the grating for the
cell-- you could see down the hall-- you could see the reflection of the
window-- but you couldn't see the actual window.
But, none of that natural light would actually
come in from that window.
Was there any skylight in the facility?
In the housing unit between-- about half way
between-- So my-- I would draw it-- I will just try and use my hands. But--
Essentially-- just try to describe it, because
I am gonna have to describe what you do when you when you use your hands.
It was half way in between the-- in between the
hall, the row, as they called it-- in special quarters.
It faced outwards towards the exit. So, it is halfway in between, and there
is like a low ceiling over the first third of special quarters.
Then the ceiling goes up maybe twenty
feet. There is a skylight that is
facing the opposite-- pointing actually outside, then it goes down, and it goes
down at an angle towards the fire exit and window.
Did any of the natural light from that
skylight, make it to your cell?
Not inside the cell. Again, you could see the reflection of
the reflection of that light on the floor-- on the reflection of the floor
from-- if you angled your face-- again, upon the door of the cell, which I
wasn't allowed to do, but-- normally, at least.
How was your cell light during the day?
There was a fluorescent light over the rack.
And, were these lights turned off at night?
There were turned off at night.
Was there any other lighting coming into your
cell at night?
Outside the cell, particularly two cells that I
was held in the most: 191 and 192.
There is a fluorescent light directly outside,
I believe, 191 in particular that just blasts, full fluorescent light into the
And, how did that light effect you if at all?
Well, your-- my head, when you are sleeping,
you are gonna have your feet towards the-- towards the observation area, with
the head towards the wall at the back of the cell.
You couldn't turn any other way. So that they can see your face. So, right directly in front of you, if
you did not have anything obstructing your path was the fluorescent light.
So, when we look at the diagram of the cell, again, then your head would
be roughly at the same level of the toilet?
Roughly. Yes, sir.
And then your feet...?
I-- I could see-- first thing in the morning I
could see the toilet.
Now, also under the SECNAV, it requires MAX
prisoners to wear restraints when they are outside of their cell?
What restraints were you required to wear?
I was required to wear, what they considered
full restraint. So, I wore hand
irons. Just, regular handcuffs with a metal loop, and a belt-- leather belt was
attached to that loop.
And, then I was given leg irons for both-- on
both my feet with a 20, maybe 18 inch chain between-- I am guessing at the
length [missed a few words]...
--without a measure.
difficulty was it for you to walk in your full restraints?
You cannot walk in full restraints without a
guard holding you as a safety precaution.
Cause, you can easily just fall, straight on
your face, because-- with the belt, with the hand iron, with the hand iron,
they are towards your belly button.
So, your hands are near your belly button, so you can't stop your self
from failing, or anything like that, sir.
Were these restraints taken off of you, when
you went to the visitation room?
I might have, on occasion, had one hand released, but it would still-- but
my other hand would still be locked in to the belt for-- for writing.
Was this also true when you were visiting with
That was only for attorney visits, and whenever
I was signing paperwork with my command, sir.
When you were removed from your cell, how were
I was escorted with usually at least two guards
and an NCO [Non Commissioned Officer], but it was-- it often went up to three
guards and an NCO, and sometimes four guards and an NCO were transporting where
I needed to go, sir.
And how was the facility when you were
moved? What did they do to the
They would place the entire facility on
lockdown. So, no inmates would be
moving, throughout the facility. No
other detainees or prisoners or whatever status they were in: post trial,
pretrial-- it would all be-- they were put in their cells, or where ever they
were, and locked down.
And, how do you know that?
They would announce over the intercom
system. They would announce,
'Lockdown. Lockdown. Lockdown.' Three times, or 'Lockdown' three times, and
then-- and then-- well, standby for 'Lockdown' lets you know that it was going
to occur and they would announce the lockdown, and then-- and then movement was
authorized for-- or they could start moving me at that point, sir.
And, how were you moved from your cell at that
point. Can you just describe that
for Colonel Lind?
Well, after-- I mean-- after I am placed in
The process of you are in your cell and they are gonna move you, what do
they do? They haven't put any
restraints on you yet.
I approach the cell door, near the feed tray, which is in front of
me. I stand at parade rest at
first. Then they-- the guard,
usually a lance corporal, or sometimes a corporal, would instruct me to put
both hands or one hand out through the feed tray, and then would place the hand
irons on my-- put me in-- place me in hand irons, and there was a loop attached
to it in between the two cuffs.
Sometimes it was a chain cuff, sometimes it was
the hinge cuff. They had different
ones for different times, and the belt was attached, and then they would-- if
it was just the one hand, they would tell me to put the other hand out after
one was placed in, then, and then I would have-- they would instruct me to pull
myself in. They would hold the
Then, I would spin around. They would instruct me to spin
around. So, that they could put the
belt. So, I would do an about face movement,
and then they would, you know, put the belt on, and instruct me.
And, then after the belt was done, they would
instruct me to put my knees up on the rack sometimes with my face on the wall--
sometimes I would have it stood up.
I just waited for the direct instruction, which depended on the guard, and
then they would place the leg restraints on me, while I am kneeling on the
And, then they would hold-- they would hold the
belt. And, they would hold-- they
would usually like grab the belt-- the slack on the belt and hold onto
that. And, I would get pulled
up. Then I would be standing erect,
with at least one guard holding me.
And, I would be escorted outside the cell.
Now I want to just cover-- there were two time
periods that you were on suicide risk, correct?
And, I just want to briefly cover the
conditions of suicide risk, and then we will compare that with how that
differed to POI, 'prevention of injury'. Okay?
So, real briefly, the times that you were on suicide risk, were you
subject to constant observation?
On suicide risk, yes. Constant, directly outside of the door
observation, so, what they called line of sight observation, sir.
And, how was that accomplished?
There would be a guard, usually, and E2,
usually a Private, or Private First Class for the Marines, would sit there, and
he would have a clip board or at Marine Corps Base Quantico they had a green
book in which they wrote down updates on whatever was going on.
Now, did you speak to the guard that was
sitting outside of your cell during this time?
Only if I needed something, sir. I was not authorized to have any
conversation with him.
And, you said that they would write down things,
do you know what they would be writing down?
I know now through discovery, but I was not
privy to that [missed word].
Were you ever woken up during the night during
this time period?
And, why would you be woken up?
Well, sometimes if they felt that there view
was obstructed or seeing my face, while I am sleeping, then they would knock on
the-- they would knock on the door of the cell or on the grating of the cell and
instruct me to respond in some manner.
I would sit up or move my face, depending on if
I had a blanket obstructing my view or turned over so they could see my face,
or some-- They just wanted-- they wanted to see my face in particular.
Now, why would you be covering your face, or
turning your face away from the door?
Well, when I am sleeping in-- as I am sleeping
in 191 or 192, I have the light that's directly outside.
I didn't intend-- I mean I would often try to
sleep so that, that way I wouldn't get woken up. I mean even if it meant, you know,
having the bright light, you know, it seemed bright at that angle at least, you
know, with that light coming in.
I would try and fall asleep like that, but I
mean I ended up always rolling over, or covering myself just as I am asleep, and
then that would lead me to being woken up.
I mean, on Suicide Risk it happened sometimes
two or three times a night.
Where did you eat your meals when you were on
I ate every meal inside of the cell, sir.
And, what were you permitted to have inside of
your cell, when you were on suicide risk?
I was permitted to have-- I don't recall
exactly what clothing I was authorized a part from my-- I think I had a
T-Shirt, underwear, and socks on the very first time that I was ever on Suicide
And, then I had shorts, but they were-- they
were Army standard PT shorts, but the loop inside of it had been taken
out. So, it was just the elastic
portion. So, they were modified PT
Were you permitted to have your prescription
For the first two nights no, sir. For the first two days I was there, no sir. Whenever I was in the cell, I did not
And, do you need your glasses in order to see?
I cannot see past four or five inches with
I mean, maybe with some practice, I can see
depth of objects, large objects and [missed word] some things, but I cannot
make out detail. So, no. I just can't. I can't see without my glasses [slight
laugh at himself].
And, so for the first you said, you couldn't
see. How many hours of the day were
you required to be without your glasses?
Anytime I was inside the cell and not doing--
filing out paperwork. I mean again
this is the very first-- I had just arrived at the facility, but they got frustrated
because i couldn't see-- I couldn't see the rank on their collars.
I remember that, so. They authorized me to wear glasses
during the daytime at some point, a few days later.
And, why were they frustrated that they could not
see the rank on their collars?
It's the Marine Corps.
And, you always-- I mean every single time you
spoke to somebody, you used their rank or sir or ma'am, depending on-- or Chief
for Chief Warrant Officer or you know Commissioned Officer, or what not, sir.
So, the customs and courtesies are never
ending, and they expect that at all times.
Were you allowed to have writing materials in
your cell when you were on suicide watch?
I don't recall being able to.
I don't remember what the handling instructions
were for the first couple days I was-- I had only just arrived, so. On reception status you are not
So, I was on hybrid status for first week, I
think, where I was on a reception status, as well as suicide risk.
So, I would have only-- I would only be
authorized the rule book, what they called the 'Rules and Regulations' for the
facility. It's a Brig Order.
You said then after the first coupled of days,
then they did let you have your glasses?
They did, sir--
Alright, so let's--
I remember now it was the rank and the fact
that I can read with them, but I have to put it up to my face.
I am very near sighted. So, they were worried because I have
this book that was like right up to my face, and I talked to-- I think it was
Gunnery Sergeant Blenis about that.
Alright, let's talk about what your life was
like during the period of time, that first time when you were on suicide watch.
So, essentially you got there through 29 July
to the time that they took you off 11 August--
Can you tell us what your average day was like during that time period?
I-- They would announce reveille.
And, what is the end timeframe for that? If you could--
When you were taken off of suicide watch, 11
Okay. So, from my arrival to 11 August, I was
inside of the cell.
They would announce reveille three times. 'Reveille Reveille Reveille' Turn on the lights.
And, then they would place a-- they don't-- On
Suicide Risk, they would sometimes authorize you limited access to a razor to
So, I would shave my face with-- with a safety
razor. And then return that.
And, then they would announce 'count'. There would be a-- sometimes-- sometimes
there was enough time to do that hygiene-- shave your face-- before count. Sometimes there wasn't.
So, sometimes they would conduct count almost
immediately following 'Reveille Reveille Reveille'
--and throughout the day they would do
counts. They would deliver
chow. And, then I would-- I don't recall on suicide watch being
authorized anything more than twenty minutes 'sunshine call'. So, they would take me out of the cell
to go outside in full restraints for twenty minutes.
So you went to sleep at 22 hundred, correct?
Yes. That was the end of the day. Yes, sir.
So, from zero five to 22 hundred, other than
the twenty minutes 'sunshine call' outside of your cell, were you taken out of
On reception status, no. So, for the first couple days, no. And--
What about for the suicide watch?
The suicide watch, without the reception hybrid
status, they would take me to 'sunshine call'.
And then on-- usually once a week I would be
pulled out to see Gunnery Sergeant Blenis.
And, what about showers. Were you ever taken out for showers?
Yes, that is the other thing. It is in the housing unit, so it is
maybe fifteen meters from the exit to my cell.
Further out from, past the-- past the point
where the sunlight is.
It's called a sunlight, right? The hole in the ceiling-- window-- and
then you have the shower. Then,
that was were I took my shower was fifteen or twenty minutes [missed word] from
And, how long were you provided to take a
Usually between five and ten minutes on suicide
risk status with a guard standing directly outside of the shower, with line of
sight on me.
There is no-- there is nothing obstructing the
view between the outside of the shower-- the outside of the cell area
containing the shower.
So, for the rest of the time that you are
inside of your six by eight cell, where you permitted to lie down flat on the
Flat-- lie down flat on the rack?
--yeah, on your back?
--on reception status, all hours were
considered duty hours, so no.
The entire day you sat upright, with your legs on--
eventually the [missed word] of my legs being on the bed, but-- like an Indian
style position. But depending on who the guard was.
And then, duty hours would be implemented after
I was taken off of reception status.
Duty hours being between zero five and 17 hundred to as late as 19
hundred during the weekdays, and during the holiday period, they still implemented
early duty hours between zero seven and 10-- for the start of visitation
period, and then they would re-implement that period, right after chow-- right
after dinner chow. So, between 16
hundred to again 18 hundred.
So, if it were during the duty day, were you
permitted to lie down on your rack?
Definitely not. Unless you
had-- there was a medical exception that I did have at night, towards the end,
after I would take-- I would take the Ativan-- I forgot what it was-- Clonazepam--
Klonopin. So, I would take that and
they would allow me to sleep after that.
So, if you lay down in your cell, and it was
during the duty day, what would happen?
You would be told not to do that. If you continued to do so, you would
face disciplinary action including having a DA board.
Were you permitted to lean your back against
--during the duty day?
Not during the duty hours, no. Unless you had a back-- you always had--
any exception status would be on the handling instructions, which were normally
outside on a clipboard outside of the cell.
And, was that always the case during your
entire time at Quantico?
I want to go to POI, but before I do that if we could take a ten minute
And that enough for everybody?
Ma'am, can we make it fifteen please?
That is fine. Court is in recess until 15:30 or 2:30
Please be seated. This Article 39(a) session is called to
order. Let the record reflect all
parties present when the Court last recessed are again present in Court. Mr. Coombs?
Thank you, your Honor. Pfc. Manning, I remind you that you are
still under oath.
Alright, let's talk about POI. Prevention of injury. Were you ever downgraded from suicide
risk to prevention of injury?
Yes, sir, I was.
And, when was this?
Mid to late August. I don't recall-- I do not
remember the exact date, sir.
Let's compare what your life was like on prevention of injury, as
opposed to when you were on suicide risk.
During this time, were you still on MAX as
I will still on-- well, being on suicide risk
or POI is an automatic that you are on MAX status.
That was your understanding?
That was what Gunnery Sergeant Blenis explained to me. And from my reading of the facility rule
book, it was implied.
Alright, so when you were on prevention of injury,
were you still subjected to constant observation?
But, it was not line of sight.
It was through the observation booth window.
How often were the Brig guards checking on you
when you were on prevention of injury?
They would open the door, and poke their head
out. And, sometimes they would step
out completely, and check on me.
I described it as physically check on me. So, they have line of sight, and then
they ask me verbally, 'Are you okay? How you doing? Are you doing good?'
So, I respond, 'Yes, Rank. Yes, Lance Corporal. Yes, Corporal. Yes, PFC.'
And during this time that you were on POI, with
the-- were you ever woken up in the middle of--
Not, nearly as frequently. Maybe once every few nights, but at last
two or three times a week this occurred, sir.
And, was this also due to covering your head or
obstructing their view in some way?
Yes, and it wasn't intentional. I mean it was usually just I am just
rolling over during the night, so that I just end up where they-- where the guard
cannot see my entire face, sir.
And, where did you eat your meals when you are
On prevention of injury it was the same
arrangement. Where I would eat the
meal in the cell, but I was given a plastic tray.
And, it was a metal spoon for the longest
time. That is what I recall. So, I was given on metal spoon, sir.
And, were there any other detainees near you
when you were on POI status?
They were in special quarters. So, they weren't necessarily adjacent to
me, or near to me. But, they
would-- they would be-- there were some detainees that I could hear down on the
certainly there was several detainees on a row on the other side of the
observation booth, where there would be a large commotion.
I mean there was a lot of mingling and things
and a lot of yelling.
So, I knew that they-- that other detainees
Were you permitted to speak to other detainees
that are on your same row?
Technically I was, but it had to be in a low
conversational tone, but if they are not near me-- I mean even if I am talking
to someone-- whenever you don't have line of sight with anybody, so-- low
conversational tone is-- was anything other than yelling, so, no.
I mean, but I was technically allowed to speak
to other detainees, but in actually doing so I would be violating the
conversational tone-- tone rules.
So, in essence, no.
And, if you violated that rule by raising your
voice, what would happen?
They would open the door to the observation booth
an tell me that I wasn't-- that I needed to-- that because of the distance
between me and the other detainees or prisoners-- and I don't know what status
the other people are, because I can't see them. You know, I am not allowed to talk to
They might be a different-- sometimes it was a
different status, but it was always that they were too far away from me to be--
for me to have a conversation with them.
And, at this point, as I understand what you
said earlier, you were initially provided kind of the standard mattress? Is that correct?
Again, much like the the green mattress that
is there-- slightly-- it was slightly in better condition than that one in
terms of it was more rigid-- wasn't flexible.
And, were you provided a pillow when you got
downgraded to POI?
I've never received a pillow as far as I am aware of , sir.
What did you start to do with your mattress due
to the fact that you did not have a pillow?
I would take the mattress and I would roll up
one end slightly so that way I could put my head on it, and that way my head
wasn't down. So, my head was elevated
about another two inches, sir.
Did there come a time that they actually did
provide you with a suicide mattress that had the built in pillow?
They did. They gave me a
different mattress. I think they ordered
specially in December, sir.
December of 2010?
December of 2010. Yes, sir.
And, is that when you received it?
Yes, I received it as soon as it arrived. It was specially ordered to--
--basically that is what Chief Warrant Officer
And, I know you kind of described the
difference between the mattress that we have as an appellate exhibit and the
one that you received, but in general, how would you describe the comfort level
of the suicide mattress that you were provided?
It was the same as the regular mattress. So,
the comfort level improved with the pillow, but not by a horrible-- a large
Were you permitted to have regular sheets or
blankets once you were placed on POI?
I have never had sheets or blankets-- well, apart from the POI blankets.
And, these POI blankets, you said that they
were rigid. How were they as far as
keeping you warm at night?
They do not retain heat. If you have two of them, I think, that
the air in between them insulates a little bit better, but I didn't-- during
the summertime it was very cold, and they didn't-- I mean they would usually
come-- I digress a little, but they usually overcompensated the
temperature. So, if it was hot
outside, it would be intensely cool inside. So-- so it was usually cool in the
wintertime as well. But, they would
issue a second blanket in the wintertime.
Were you permitted to have personal items in your cell, once you were
placed on POI?
By personal items, if you mean like hygiene
items and extra uniforms and things--
I was-- if I asked for toilet paper, and I needed it, then I would have
access to toilet paper or just toilet paper during the day.
Alright, so I guess, let's just continue on
that one question for the toilet paper.
If you needed to use the toilet, and you needed toilet paper, how would
you ask for it?
I would stand up to the front of the door-- standing
at parade rest, and I would-- and I would announce through to the escorts in
the observation room-- I would announce, "Lance Corporal, detainee Manning
requests permission to use toilet paper"
--or "...permission to receive toilet
You are at the front of your cell. You would announce that--
--and then what happens?
They would sometimes come out if they weren't
too busy, and then they would retrieve toilet paper. It was either in the cell adjacent to me
where other belongings were, or they would have a roll of toilet paper inside
the observation room to give to me.
Okay, so, when you were in the cell, and you
were asking for that--
--did you ever wait in order to get the toilet
I would stand at parade rest at the front of the door, until they would
either see me. I am still standing
there, and then they would respond.
Sometimes if they didn't hear me, they would see me there, and know that
I was wanting a request for something, sir.
Okay, once you received it, again there was
nothing blocking their view of you when you were using the toilet?
That is correct, sir.
And so, once you received the toilet paper,
used it, then if you had extra toilet paper, what did you do with it?
I always gave the toilet paper back to the
guard. I did not keep it. As, soon-- as soon as I was finished
with the toilet paper I had to give it back to the guard.
Sometimes, if they would go back to the
observation booth, then I would set it on the feed tray for them to pick up.
Now, if you wanted to wash your hands, then, at
the sink, what would you have to do?
I would have to do the same process. So, I would stand at the front of the
cell, and request for soap from my soap dish. It was a lot more-- it was a lot less of
a priority. So, I didn't often receive
that. I didn't always ask for it.
So, there were times where you would asked for
it, and they never gave it to you?
That is correct, Sir. Were-- I would stand at parade rest
there, and sometimes-- and then I would just-- they would say that they are
gonna get it, and then they didn't.
And, then I would just sit down and not worry about it.
Now other personal items. What else were you allowed to have in
your cell other than, you-- I guess your clothes and your glasses at that
The only-- the items that I had were I had a
mattress, POI blanket or blankets depending on the temperature outside. For a period of time I had flip
flops. So, socks, underwear,
shorts, flip flops, and that would be all the physical items that are not
attacked to the cell itself.
Were you permitted to have reading material in
I don't remember the exact instructions on
what-- what I was authorized to read-- when-- but I was eventually given the privilege
to read, although the library collection was-- I mean it wasn't-- it was fairly
limited. So, I didn't have a lot of
interest in a lot of books that they had, so I ordered some.
What did you order to read?
I ordered books that I-- and that I in
particular have an interest in reading or had read before and wanted to read
How did you get those books?
Those were special ordered through-- by my
family and would arrive in pre-selected packages so that the facility would
know that they were coming ahead of time.
And, do you recall what books you were reading
at that time?
I read a lot of philosophy books-- a lot of
history books. I am more of a
non-fiction reader, though I do like real-- I like realistic fiction like John
Grisham, Tom Clancy sort of present day real-- realistic events-- that type of
But, more of a non-fiction reader, so. Brian Greene is a good author. Richard Dawkins would be an interesting
author, sir. Those are the types of
books that I like to read when I have recreational time, sir.
And, were you allowed to have all those books
in your cell at that point?
They were in the cell adjacent to me. I was authorized to read books, and only
read the book. So, I would sit
there and I would be reading the book.
If I was not reading the book, then the guard
would come out of the cell or announce, you know, ask me if I was still reading
And, he would ask me if I was done. If I wasn't reading it-- like even if
I-- even if my eyes were taken away from it-- like just to rest my eyes-- they
would open the door and ask me if I was still reading the book.
So, if you weren't actively reading the book, the
book would be taken away--
--and looking like I was actively reading the
book, yes, sir.
--they would ask me-- they would ask to
retrieve the book.
Were you allowed to exercise in your cell now
that you are on POI?
Not-- not-- I mean there were ways around it in terms of not being quite
What did you try to do to get around the exercise
There was a lot of things-- there was a lot of
things. I would practice various
dance moves-- and dancing is not technically exercising, as far as they were
concerned. It wasn't unauthorized
on the handling instructions. So, I
did that sometimes. I would do resistance
training with my arms--
What do you mean by resistance training?
It is where you're using-- where you're doing--
where you're putting effort against your muscles, but you are not-- you don't
necessarily have a weight or anything.
So, it is like weight training, but without the
weights, because you don't-- because you might not have access to them. So it tones muscles mostly.
And, what else would you do?
Any kind of body movement or pacing around. Walking around. Shuffling. Just any type of movement.
I mean there wasn't a lot to do, so I would
just try to move around as much as I could. Even, if it was just-- even if it was just
minor movements every so often-- just keep moving. That way I can keep the blood flowing,
and stay awake.
Now, you indicated that, that was one form-- that
the dancing was once form of pseudo exercise. That the guards would not stop you from
It was not-- it was not a regulation exercise as far as they're
concerned-- like crunch-- like stomach crunches or pull ups or sit ups or
anything like that.
And, it wasn't-- it was up to
interpretation. I mean I guess
dancing is not-- they didn't allow whistling or singing or anything like
that. So, there was a lot of
things-- I mean they were very-- if it wasn't-- if it was written that it was
unauthorized on the handling instructions, then they would go by that and
So, when you say you were doing anything to
stay awake. What was it like to be
in your cell like that-- for that period of time?
It was pretty draining. I can't think of another word. Just tiring. You are just-- if you are-- I spent a
lot of time, looking for things to stay active and to keep my mind from going
back to a state similar to Kuwait.
I didn't want to-- I tried to feel as much like
I wasn't trapped in it-- like a cage or a cell. I tried to feel like I wasn't trapped in
there-- that I still know where I am.
I know my environment.
I would just try to stay active and I would
try to keep from falling asleep,
because they-- that was the rule.
You were not allowed to sleep or look like-- even the appearance of
sleep was considered sleeping. So,
you couldn't close your eyes or anything like that. So, I would move around. Get blood pumping, instead of-- just to
keep myself from sleeping-- and drink-- and I drank a lot of water, sir.
Let's talk about some other restrictions on POI.
Were you still only getting twenty minutes of
'sunshine call' when you were placed on POI from suicide sisk?
I was authorized twenty minutes.
I don't-- I assume [missed a few words] there was a discussion at least
of an upgrade to possibly thirty minutes by Gunnery Sergeant Blenis in October
timeframe, but I don't know if that was ever [missed word]. I don't remember.
Do you know when you were upgraded, I guess
from twenty minutes of 'sunshine call' to one hour of rec call.
Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart came to see
at one point and said he was-- that as long as it wasn't-- as long as I didn't
do anything-- stupid is the word that I can think of, but I don't want to say
that, that is what he said-- but as long as I wasn't doing anything to look
like I was harming myself or anything like that, then he would allow me to have
more recreation privileges.
But, the second that I did not-- didn't comply
or have anything, then it would go back to the way-- he would change the
handling instructions back to the way they were before.
So, when you were taken on-- do you recall the time period that was?
I want to say December, because it was-- it was
before-- it was in the week or two preceding or right before my birthday, which
is December 17th.
And, I remember that I spoke with you the week
after that to announce it. So, I
don't-- that is what I remember, sir.
And, so when you were taken now for your-- I guess for the twenty
minutes of 'sunshine call', let's talk about what you did from 29 July to
basically December timeframe.
My understanding is that you had two places to
go inside rec and outside rec, is that right?
Yes, depending on outdoor conditions, the
temperature outside was one of the factors and whether there was icing or
raining or anything. Then, I went--
that determined whether I was at an indoor recreation area or an outdoor
So when you were taken to an outdoor recreation area, for your twenty
minutes of 'sunshine call'--
--what were you doing?
For 'sunshine call', the twenty minute period,
I would be taken outside in full restraints. They would have one or two guards. Always at least one guard holding me,
and we would walk usually in some kind of-- like around in circles or on figure
eights. Try to change of the shape
by their request, you know, to move around. I would get some walk and see some sun,
And, what about indoor rec, what would you do
for your twenty minutes of indoor rec?
The same thing towards-- in-- during the autumn
timeframe, I was still going outside, even when it was like there was a light
But, around-- before Thanksgiving, they cleared
out one of the-- they kept-- they kept describing it as a chapel-- I don't know
anything about that, but they changed it to an indoor recreation area, and I
would be-- and I was transported to that indoor recreation area, and then I
walked around with the guard, inside that bay area.
Still in restraints?
Yes, for the 'sunshine call', yes, sir.
Were you permitted to wear shoes during the
Without laces. I had tennis shoes that I received
through my command. They were my
tennis shoes from Fort Drum. I
don't know how they got them. I was
surprised to see them again. They
removed the laces from them and they would-- I mean they are at my ankles so
they would not stay on my feet. So,
I wore my Army issue tan boots for the ACUs without laces, because they-- the
tongue is built in so it just stays on your feet.
Now, when you were increased to one hour of recreation call now--
--what would you do for your recreation call
This is recreation call so there-- for
recreation call I didn't have restraints.
They would remove the restraints for outdoor. There was a feed tray. They would close me into the pen
They call it the bullpen, which was maybe a
third of the size of an NBA basketball court, and they would remove my
restraints through the chain link bullpen feed tray. And, I would walk around.
They wouldn't let me run for the longest time,
and it wasn't a good idea either, because I was wearing boots, because they
didn't let me have laces.
At some point, I got laces for my shoes. I don't recall when or how, but I was
able to do a little jogging then, and play when they gave me a basketball,
a hoop. It was probably
about eight feet, so it wasn't regulation, but it was a basketball hoop-- I
Alright. And, let's talk about the indoor rec
then. What could you do on the
There was less that I could do on the indoor
rec. They would take me into the
indoor recreation area. They would
have a chair. They would set me on
a chair. They would remove my
This was the only time that they would actually
remove my restraints, while they were not going through a feed tray or
anything. So, they were a lot more
careful about how they did that.
And, then-- I was always-- I would have to stay
about ten or fifteen feet away from the guards, if I wasn't-- they wouldn't let
me be near the guards during that time.
And, then I was in sort of an area-- and I
always have three or four guards-- and always an Non Commissioned Officer,
usually and E5 or E6, would be watching me while I am in there. And, I could walk around.
There was a-- there was some spinners, which
are a bike with some resistance, which is set with a screw, and we adjusted
positions. Some guards authorize me to utilize that if I asked for permission
to use it, and they did. Used that for
cardio. And, there was a-- again,
permission was required every time, but I would use the pull-up bars and-- they
had a set of pull-up bars-- and I would use those-- use my own body weight for exercises.
They also had a mat so I could do sit-ups and
pushups. There was on the sides of
the room, there were electronic exercise equipment that were there.
From my understanding, I was told that most of
it didn't work, and that-- but they didn't want me to touch anything
electronic, whatsoever. So, I
wasn't allowed to touch the-- or be near the electronic equipment-- the a--
like a-- they had treadmills and weight lifting equipment-- but if it plugged
into something or had any sort of computer, they didn't allow me to touch
it. They were concerned about that.
So, if it were a say a bright, sunny day and
they took you to outdoor rec--
--and if you wanted to, could you just kind of
sit down on the ground, or maybe lay down on the ground, to just take in some
Definitely not. No laying down. I always had to be doing something,
whether it was walking or moving around. If they did not-- if I was not moving
around they would ask me if I wanted my rec time secured, whether I wanted to
fill out a 'voluntary statement'. I
would be-- at first I thought-- but I just went with it.
I always would walk around. I would at least walk around in like
circles, figure eights, S formations.
I made up all kinds of different shapes that I could walk around in,
while I had the boot restriction or the lace restriction.
And, then I was able to play basketball and
things, but it was a lot more maneuverable with a-- and they were less
concerned about me falling or getting injured in anyway without the laces
[missed a word].
Now, were you-- on POI were you permitted to
have correspondence time, where you could write to family members?
I think it was an hour long.
It usually clashed with-- I eventually got TV privileges. So--
You got what privileges?
Television privileges, Ma'am.
So, you got-- it clashed with the TV privileges?
Right, so there was a-- there was a period of
time where it was either television or correspondence, or the combination of
the two. I don't know. So, I was authorize my legal document to see and have
access to legal material including some of the print-offs of discovery
material, and a notebook, and I recall one pen.
And, were you allowed to call your family
during the time that you were on POI?
Technically yes. There was a telephone. I never used the telephone that they had
for the regular phone calls, because there is a collect call situation.
I don't-- I never really got the whole gist of
how it worked exactly. I was given
a pin number, although, my pin number didn't work for it. So, they would-- what it was, was there
was like a telephone from like an old TV-- or not TV-- or telephone booth-- like
that kind of telephone, but it was on a cart.
And, then they had a long cable that would plug
into the wall in the observation room.
And, then you would use it, and it went to a
system, and you pick up the phone, and you enter your pin number and a bunch of
other things, but it was only collect call out.
And, you had to make sure that the-- that, that
phone number was authorized on the list of phone numbers. It was a complicated process, and I
don't recall ever being able to call anybody, because most-- one, I had issues
with the pin number. Two, I had
issues with the numbers being placed in the system.
And, three, I was-- I was aware that most of
the phone-- most cell phone companies don't accept this type of collect
So, almost everybody at the facility-- and I
have been told by Gunnery Sergeant Blenis that most people weren't able to make
phone calls using that system, because of all those little quirks and
complications with it.
Were you aware that the telephone calls that
you were making were being recorded?
Using those-- that-- using that phone system they
would have been recorded-- I also-- there was a little bit of-- I don't really
want to call my aunt and have every word scrutinized, you know, like that-- like
on her end.
So, I would tell her-- I felt it was best just
to leave my aunt alone, and leave some of my friends alone in that respect.
During the time that-- based upon the fact they
had recordings of your calls, you were able to occasionally call your aunt or
call family members?
No, the system-- not using the phone system
that was available for me on those-- during off duty hours.
I never used-- I don't recall ever being able
to use that system. They had the
same phone system that we used for our attorney phone calls on-- they gave us a
courtesy phone call, because some of the people were having issues with the
phones that they authorized.
There was a point with a-- would take all-- I
was told that all the other detainees had this happening as well. But, they took me out of the cell on
Thanksgiving day of 2010. I don't
recall the day, I know it was a Thursday.
But, and they took me in for-- in that area,
and they asked me. They had to
check with the phone number and everything, but I made a phone call to my
aunt. It was a ten minute phone
call. The guards were standing right next to me.
And, I told her that I was good, and that I
loved her and everything else. And,
then I called-- and then for Christmas eve, I was given the same opportunity
for-- they called it a 'courtesy phone call'. Again, ten minutes, and I called
Those were the only two phone numbers that-- I
actually knew three phone numbers, including yours, sir. But, those are the only three phone
numbers that I had memorized, so.
Now, were you allowed to have visitors at Quantico, now that you were on
I was authorized visitors. I had to fill out paperwork to place
them on the visitation list, and they had to be approved.
So, they had to have like background checks,
and things like that-- I don't know what was entailed with that, but I guess
what Gunnery Sergeant Blenis-- Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, by the way, just he was
my main conduit with the-- for communications through the facility, so.
He was your Brig counselor?
He was the Brig counselor, so. He was the overall-- he was the overarching
supervisor--- NCOIC of the counseling program. There were three counselors, but he
was my assignment counselor. He assigned himself as my counselor.
So, how often were you permitted to have
They were authorized on weekdays-- or no,
weekends. They were authorized on
weekends from eleven, no from ten o'clock-- no, from twelve noon until 15
hundred. So, three hours on weekends.
Anytime on the weekdays?
I think holidays-- they treated those as
weekends, and I think they had a holiday schedule, sir.
And where would these visits take place?
These would take place in a non contact
booth. They were-- booth was-- right
at the partition between the front of the facility and the rest of the
facility. So, that is where they
And, when you were taken to see your visitors
in the non-contact booth, were the restraints removed from you?
If it was an attorney visit again, I had one-- I sometimes had one hand
removed for writing.
How many hours of the day, that you are now on
POI would you-- would you say that you were inside your six by eight foot cell?
Can you just rephrase that question, sir?
Now that you went from suicide risk to POI, how
many hours of the day do you think in general you were inside of the cell?
Roughly the same amount. I think I got another-- there might be
an additional five minutes-- five minutes for being out, because I was given a
little bit more shower time.
And, a little bit more rec time?
Eventually, yes sir.
So, in your estimation what was the difference
from your perspective of suicide risk to POI? Can you tell Colonel Lind?
Very little. In terms of the effect-- there were-- there
were distinctions, but I always had a guard watching me.
I mean it was just a question of whether or not
it was through the glass window or not.
And, I had some additional clothing for POI, for a period of time, so,
until March of 2011.
So, other than that, your estimation is that it
is roughly the same?
I mean the distinction is so low that I wouldn't really-- I mean it's a
big-- it is sort of a big difference, in terms of from my perspective.
I didn't have to have somebody sit right outside
of my cell all the time-- directly outside of my cell. There was at least, the appearance of
them not being there, but they were still sitting there. So, it was roughly the same. So, it was roughly the same. I would say ninety per cent the same.
And, did you know that Chief Averhart and later
Chief Barnes were submitting weekly reports up through the chain of command?
I had no idea sir, until I-- actually three
weeks ago when you told me that.
Did you know that your counselor, Gunnery
Sergeant Blenis, was filling out information for these weekly reports?
I found out some of that information through
what he put into the system and what we got the print out from the Article 138
complaint, but that was towards the January, February timeframe that I found
And, what was the role of the Brig counselor
from your perspective?
I saw him as my conduit-- my communication
person to the facility apart from the standard guard, where I always standing
at parade rest and doing exactly what I am told at all times.
I could speak to him on a-- at level. He would relax. He didn't wear a belt. So, he-- All the guards wore a duty belt, and a [cuffer?] at all times.
And, they never left that role as long as they
wore a duty belt and the cap, but he didn't wear a duty belt, so he could
relax, and I could relax and talk to him at level.
How often would you see Gunnery Sergeant
I saw him at least once a week for a long
period of time. I think there was a
period of time in which he went on leave, so-- and then TAD [Temporary
Additional Duty] for, I don't know.
I forget. I think it is TAD for the Marines Corps, but there was a
period of time in which he left, and Staff Sergeant Jordan covered down.
the Army liaison officer as well as a counselor. So, I would speak to him in that role,
but Gunnery Sergeant Blenis was the-- I think it is Master Sergeant Blenis
now. He got promoted, so.
And, where would you--
--that's fine. Where would you see Master Sergeant
Master Sergeant Blenis would visit me in the
cell at least twice a week normally to see me. Not necessarily talk to me, but, you
know, 'Are you doing okay?' 'Yes, Gunnery Sergeant Blenis' or '[missed],
Gunnery Sergeant Blenis.' And, then
he would pull me out, and I would be escorted to his office. And, I would sit in his office, and he
would talk to me, sir.
When you were taken to his office, were your
My restraints were never removed outside of
that-- in that capacity, so, no.
They were not removed, so.
And, how long would your sessions last with
then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis?
Gunnery Sergeant Blenis. I spoke to him between twenty minutes
to-- usually at least twenty minutes to forty five minutes to [missed word]-- at
most an hour. I mean sometimes--
whenever-- whenever he was-- early on I was able to talk to him more. So-- So it was almost an hour for the
And what would the two of you talk about?
We would just banter. I mean, I used the opportunity to have--
to talk to somebody that wasn't-- that wasn't wearing a duty belt. So, I could talk to him as a person and
not have this guard inmate relationship.
You know, I thought-- I thought he was a fairly
level person. So, I could talk to
Master Sergeant Blenis. So, I
talked to him about all kinds of stuff.
I mean, he had an interest in college sports, so. I like college basketball, so. That
was-- that was one thing that we often talked about.
And, based upon your interaction, what did you
think of Master Sergeant Blenis?
Master Sergeant Blenis is a very nice. He is a very nice person. I really like Master Sergeant
Blenis. I think he-- I think he is
a-- I think he is a level headed guy-- extraordinary Marine, sir. I have a high opinion of Master Sergeant
Did you trust him?
I did-- for a period of time-- I trusted Master
Sergeant Blenis, yes.
During the July 2010 to December 2010 time
frame, did then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis ever tell you that you were doing
No, and I would-- I was always asking, you
know, 'How am I doing?,' you know, 'How would you...' As you know, I like to be
rated sometimes and I like to get an idea of where I am on things, you know,
'Give me an A, B, C, D,' you know.
He would usually give me an 'A' rating for
whatever I was doing. Or, sometimes I would get a percentage, but-- or points
or stars, or however, you know, whichever [missed], but I was always asking
what I could do, and how--
The big problem or the big issue that would
always come up is my status. You
know, and during that time period I would ask him, and he would say, 'Well,'
you know, 'whenever the doctors,' and he was referring to the psychiatrists,
'felt comfortable and would recommend me to come off of the prevention of injury
status, then I could possibly get off of that and maybe see about,' you know,
'getting more privileges and maybe doing some work details and things.'
And, when do you think the earliest time period
you started asking him about, you know, 'Hey, what do I need to do to get off
of POI?' or 'How am I doing...?'
Well, I mean at first I wasn't asking him to
take me off of POI. I mean that
wasn't how it worked. I would-- I
would-- He would bring it up. He
would bring up, 'How's it going with' you know, 'the docs?'
He referred to them-- Master Sergeant Blenis
would refer to them as the 'docs'.
I mean I would say, 'It's Captain Hocter' So, I don't want to degrade him or
anything. But, you know, he would
always ask me how I was doing with him, sir.
And, I would say, you know, 'Things seem to be
going okay,' you know. And, I would
tell him how things were going, and I would ask him how from the facility standpoint,
how he felt through-- obviously I was asking him directly how the facility was
feeling about that issue.
And, he would always-- whenever I did start
asking him, which was probably around mid-September I started asking about it,
because I had been on suicide watch for over two months at that point,
including the time in Kuwait, and I felt that was odd and unusual.
It didn't seem normal from my vantage point,
and the guards were often-- offline talking about the fact that I was on
suicide watch for a long period of time.
And they would ask me-- they kept on asking me, 'When are you getting
off of...' Well it wasn't suicide watch, but, '...off of POI?' They referred to it as just, 'suicide watch'
or 'Manning Watch.'
And, so when you were talking with Gunnery
Sergeant Blenis, you said, roughly in September time frame is when you started
raising the issue of , 'When can I-- might be able to get off of this?'
I remember my father visited me in early to mid September. Cause I know we were talking about the--
the issue with the-- I forgot the name of the man-- the pastor in Florida that
was threatening to-- to burn the Koran on September 11th.
We were talking about that, and it hadn't
happened yet, but so it was early September. And, it was around that timeframe,
because I remember that particular conversation that we were talking about when
my father visited, and that is when I raised the issue about the-- well he
raised the issue about the POI-- asking about, 'How it is going with the
docs?' 'What are they telling
you?' and everything else. And, that was what Master Sergeant-- that
is a quote from Master Sergeant Blenis, again--
Alright, and so then--
--I am referring to the 'docs'.
--as the months increased, and now we are going
into October, November, are you still having these conversations with Gunnery Sergeant
Pretty consistently. As-- I mean he would always ask about it
if I didn't raise it. He would ask
about, you know, 'What are they saying?' you know, and then I started asking--
it wasn't-- there was a certain point in time.
I don't-- I think it was October, but I
started-- I started asking Captain Hocter what about, you know, why he wasn't
recommending me to come off of POI.
Because I didn't know-- I didn't ask what his
recommendations were to the facility or anything like that. He kept on saying that he was
recommending me to come off of POI,
and then I-- and then I was talking to Master Sergeant Blenis about the fact
that I was still on POI, and that-- he kept on asking me about why the-- he
kept on saying it was the 'docs' that were recommending to him that status, and
not the facility.
So, I started to notice a discrepancy in what I
was-- in the information that I was receiving, and that is whenever I became
And, when you started, I guess, noticing a
discrepancy between what you were hearing from Captain Hocter and what you were
hearing from Master Sergeant Blenis--
--who did you raise the concern to next?
After Master Sergeant Blenis? I raised it with you in particular.
And, how did you do that?
Well I mean, I just said-- I explained that
there was this-- I explained to you that there was this odd-- because there was
this discrepancy with Captain Hocter-- I would talk to him-- I mean, at least
once a week as well as Master Sergeant Blenis once a week.
And, I really wanted to get off of this status. I mean didn't feel it was-- I know I am
not a doctor or anything, but I just-- I wanted to get off of this restrictive
status, and at least be allowed to
use, you know, sleep on, you know, sheet-- sheets-- with sheets and blanket,
and everything else-- and have soap in my cell, and things like that.
Those were things-- those were high priority in
my mind, in terms of improving my quality of life. So, I wanted-- that was a goal that had
I set myself. And, I wanted to
figure out how to achieve that goal.
And, yes I raise it with you in particular, sir.
And, what were you hearing from your legal
counsel about that?
There was various different options, and things
like that. And, I was hesitant
because you know, I was sort of scared but-- I didn't want to sound like I am
complaining, or anything like that.
I don't like to sound like I am quote 'whining'
unquote, you know. And, I didn't
want to come off that way, so I informally-- I remember you stated-- I remember
you stating-- you saying that you-- cause there were possible routes, but I
still wanted to see, you know, if I could get, you know, the doctor, Captain
Hocter, and the facility commander-- as I understood, who had that eventual-- eventual
role of making that determination for POI status.
As I understood it in that way, try to get at
them to meet in the middle somewhere and allow me to change status. So, I thought I could get that by, you
know, by just informally, you know, asking them, 'Hey, what do I need to do?'
and things like that.
And what was Gunnery Sergeant Blenis telling
you, you were doing wrong at that point [missed two words]?
Well, nothing. He didn't have any disciplinary-- in
terms of disciplinary issues and things like that, he didn't raise any thing
else. I have-- He just-- He kept on
asking about, and this is a quote, you know, 'What are you saying to the
docs?' I mean, 'Why? What is going
on with the docs and with your status and everything else?'
So, you know, he didn't give-- I mean he said
that I was doing great. One quote
that Master Sergeant Blenis would often use was, 'I wish I had a hundred
Mannings.' You know, 'You're
great,' you know, 'You're not a disciplinary issue. You're not,' you know, from his
perspective-- from his personal perspective, '...a flight risk,' or anything
like that, so. He didn't-- He
didn't-- I didn't get the vibe that he understood what was going on either.
Alright, so during this time period. How often were you seeing Captain
I think it was once a week at that point if
not. I think at most one every
three to five days.
And, where were your-- how long were your
visits with Captain Hocter?
At least-- they were usually an hour long-- sometimes
more, because of that. I wanted to
talk to somebody, so I could have someone to interact with, and I told him-- I
said-- I could say to Captain Hocter in particular, 'I realize that you have
other patients, and you have other issues to deal with. You have family.' He kept on saying he had a large
family. He wouldn't specify whether
it was kids or not, but I knew that he wanted to be with his family, and I-- but
I just wanted somebody to talk to, and somebody to talk to that had a level
where we could talk, as opposed to again the subordinate, you know, detainee/guard
And, when you were talking with Captain Hocter,
again what were your conversations about?
In general, we would just start with current
events. Because, I am a current
events guy. I like to know-- it's
what really grounds me in what is going on in the world, you know.
I remember the oil spill had finally been
cleared up at one point in the Gulf.
They finally stopped that, you know it was like a-- it is just things
like that-- you know, that ground-- you know, from my perspective-- you know, where
the world is and everything else.
It makes-- the big world, as opposed to my little cell, you know-- worry
about the much broader world, sir.
I mean I'm sort of forgetting what the question was.
No, that's fine. What did you-- when you were with
Captain Hocter, did you ever raise the issue of what Master Sergeant Blenis was
I would be like, 'Well the counselor is saying that'-- and, I told him
that the counselor kept on saying that he was making-- then Gunnery Sergeant
Blenis, Master Sergeant Blenis, was saying-- 'kept asking about your recommendations,'
and I said-- and I kept on asking him, 'Well, why are you recommending me to
stay on POI?' and he'd be like, 'I
am not recommending you to stay on POI,' prevention of injury. And, then I wasn't sure who was telling
the truth or where the information was.-- where the discrepancy was.
So, at that point you were not sure if you
could trust Captain Hocter or Gunnery Sergeant Blenis?
Well, I thought-- I thought Captain Hocter
being-- I don't-- I don't-- you know, I was in a cell all day, so my mind
wandered, and things like that.
But, I started wondering of Captain Hocter was
telling the truth about his recommendations-- whether or not he was just trying
to keep me feeling good about myself.
Between July 2010 and December of 2010 what was
your life like, if you could describe it for the Judge, overall quality of
Between? Can you repeat those time periods?
July 2010 to December 2010.
It was-- I would say at first, it was a big improvement to arrive in--
in-- stateside-- big huge.
I felt great about being there, you know. I
have a-- you know, the things I took for granted down range, you know-- or that
I took for granted stateside before going downrange and coming back-- or [missed
word] there again-- running water and air conditioning and things like
But, then-- then it started to-- as I was there
longer-- and started to drain on me.
I was getting more and more tired-- And, you know, I had access to my
family now at this point, and access to some idea of what was going on in the
So, I started to-- I started to feel more--
like I was outside-- I started to feel like I was mentally going back into sort
of Kuwait mode and that, that-- that lonely, you know-- dark black hole of a
place, you know-- mentally I mean.
Did you ever go back to that place?
No, I did not. I fought every inch to avoid the event horizon
of that and accomplished that I think.
How difficult of that time was it for you?
Being in a...?
Just having that struggle, how difficult was
that for you?
It was easier over time, sir. Before-- before
the 2011 threshold.
So, by-- by Christmas time I was feeling a
little bit better. Just, I mean-- I
mean, I am not a big fan of that timeframe just cause it is the solstice and
its really dark and I like the light-- or like sunshine and things like that,
I am not a big fan of winter but that is why I
don't really like that timeframe, but.
But, you know, I wasn't getting depressed or
Do you recall Captain Hocter placing you on POI during that timeframe
because he was worried about you getting depressed?
I was-- something about-- I mean, I know you testified
yesterday about that-- there was the twitter incident, as one of the-- as the
DBS [Duty Brig Supervisor] referred to it at the time.
He asked me if I was alive-- [missed a few
words] and he was like, 'Oh yeah, there is a report on twitter that you're
dead.' I was like, 'I am not dead'
to the Duty Brig Supervisor at the time.
And then he left, and I then I think it was a
couple days later that Captain Hocter brought it up, but he had-- I don't
know-- I don't know when I was placed on POI before that, but I just kind of
chuckled that after I found out more information about that report or whatever
it was-- and I didn't hear about it or anything.
I knew that they had taken away TV privileges, but
they often would change-- they would often change the schedule, so that way I
couldn't see current events programs or watch news and things like that.
I always tried to-- to figure out how I can get
the-- get the news type programs on-- things like that, you know-- in terms of
the schedule-- and schedule of calls and things, but they would avoid me
watching, you know, those types of shows, sir.
And, they-- they-- they just plain removed the
television at that point, and I was-- I wasn't happy about that, but I thought
it was for a completely different reason.
I thought is was just a total misunderstanding
on their part about me having access to a TV,
Now let's talk about some of the behavior that the Brig apparently
documented of yours. And, I want
from your perspective to tell the Judge why you were doing it and what you were
You were observed sword fighting imaginary
characters in your cell. Do you
Well, I mean I certainly do something that
looks like that on occasion.
And, why were you doing that?
Again, just bored, you know there is not a lot
going on. There is not a lot to
And, I know that the-- I knew that the guard
was watching, so I didn't-- if he didn't have a problem with it in terms of
opening-- in terms of opening the door and, you know, coming out and poking his
head out and saying, 'Stop doing that,' then I didn't-- then it usually wasn't
an issue. I didn't-- from my-- from
my vantage point.
But, I admit it. I could do things that look like
that. I mean, from my-- I don't know--
I don't know if I was imagining that I was sword fighting, but I certainly did
actions that looked like that.
What about being observed lifting imaginary
weights in your cell and displaying actual strain and exertion when you are
Well, if you do it a lot, I mean, I think that
is resistance training. I have no
idea if that is what it is or not.
I mean I don't know-- I don't know when that was-- that particular
incident was-- if there was an incident report or anything. But, for that, I haven't seen it. But
--were you ever told by the guards to stop
I was asked-- I remember Gunnery Sergeant-- then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis
stated something to that effect and I explained it to him, but nothing was ever
brought up with that.
What about staring in the mirror and making
faces at yourself?
The most entertaining thing in there was the mirror. [laughs] It
interacts with-- you can interact with yourself in there. So, I spent-- I spent quite a lot of
time at the mirror.
And, again why were you doing that?
Just sheer, complete, out of my mind boredom.
There also is a report of you being observed
licking the bars of your cell while you were apparently sleepwalking. Do you
I have no idea what that is about. I don't.
But, again, I don't know if you have an
incident report on that. I haven't
seen any discovery or anything. I
have seen references to it.
I don't have any specific knowledge to
something of that effect, but I do recall sort of similar along those lines I
guess, not sleep walking but-- television call on weekends was usually extended
an hour after taps.
So, you still had access to the TV, and
sometimes I would watch TV after lights out. So, I would have the TV there at a low
volume. So, that way it doesn't
keep people awake.
If that was authorized, and I was taking--
again-- I don't remember if it was clonazepam or Klonopin-- which one of those
it was-- but I was taking that and it would make me drowsy.
So, I remember there is a-- the bars are cross
thatched. They are a thatched iron
bar type thing, so I would have to put my face close up to the-- to the grating
to see the TV, and sometimes I would doze off while I was doing it.
And, I remember it looked like I was-- I
remember Corporal-- it Corporal Sanders that stopped me at one point, and he
said that, 'Don't eat the bars!' you know, 'They are not eatable.'
He said something to that effect. So, I stepped
away from-- so I leaned back and I went away from the bars. I don't know anything about that-- I
don't know if they are the same incident at all, sir. I speculate.
Alright, then there was another incident of you
playing peek-a-boo with yourself in the cell mirror or you also playing
peek-a-boo with the guards in the observation booth. Do you recall that?
I was never told anything about that except by
Master Sergeant Blenis after the fact, and then I said, you know, I am not-- I
realize that-- I do things in the mirror don't always look-- I mean, I don't
know how it looks but, the mirror was
the only interactive entertainment thing, sir.
It wasn't like I was seeing somebody else in
the mirror or anything like that. [laughs]
It is clearly me.
Sometimes I'd make funny faces just to-- just
to do something in front of the mirror.
I don't know if that's-- I don't know if I was playing peek-a-boo with
myself, but I was certainly would, you know, look different angles at, you know,
my face and things in terms of shaving and also other stuff-- and you know just
general care and wear and tear, and looking at myself in the mirror, because
there is not a lot else to do.
Did any of the guards ever express any concern
directly to you about any of this behavior?
Nothing specific. If there was something-- if I was doing
something that concerned them, they would usually open the door immediately,
and-- and come out, like it was-- like there was a fire going on-- or something
like that. And, there-- those
particular incidences weren't the same.
I don't recall those. They
didn't tell me about those until after the fact.
Now, starting in December timeframe, did you
start to complain more about your confinement conditions?
In early December it was still informal. So, I was-- I was-- I started to voice
my concerns with Master Sergeant Blenis.
I would-- I would be like, 'I don't understand
where this discrepancy is,' and I voiced the concern to Captain Hocter as well,
who would usually advise me, because he didn't feel like-- he didn't feel like
the facility was going to listen his recommendations. At least, that is what he conveyed to me
in these sessions.
He didn't feel like the facility trusted
him. But-- So I complained more
with-- with-- through Master Sergeant Blenis, and I don't recall if I ever
brought it up with Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart.
But, I did ask about it at point in time in
early December through then Master Sergeant Blenis.
[I believe I missed a question.]
Yes, Master Sergeant Papakie. Whenever he did the rounds, he let me
relax once, sir. That is the
opportunity. When you are standing
at parade rest, you are not really allowed to say anything. Whatever they tell you to relax, you can
speak slightly a bit more freely.
So, I used that opportunity to raise my concern
about it. I didn't put in-- what's
called a-- they refer to it as a-- as a 'chit'.
It's a-- it's a Department of Defense Form
5-10, which is-- is a way that you convey communications apart from those
through your counselor.
I filled out one of those forms. I gave it to the guard. I don't recall who it was. I think it was Corporal Miller. Again, I am guessing.
And, I gave him a- a chit, as they call
it. And, a-- it was a general
complaint about, you know, being on prevention of injury status.
I don't recall anything ever coming back on
that. So, as I-- this, discussion
with you-- and towards the end of December and early January I put in another
one. This time to the facility commander-- and that staffing level as opposed
to, you know, just a through the counselors.
So, I went up to the-- this one went through-- and
I was worried that they might have lost the other one. So, I made a secondary copy. I wrote 'copy' and I wrote the exact
same thing. I put 'copy' and I
initialed it. It's in a box with
Captain Tooman somewhere. I don't
think that was part of anything-- to discovery or anything.
So, these 5-10's, what were you using these
I put it in. So, that way I could convey to the
commander the thought, and I looked into the rules and regulations of the
facility about C&A [Classification and Assignment] board and everything
And, I-- I specifically requested for-- to have
a C&A board, or for one to convene, or for-- or for me to be in one. I don't remember the exact wording of
But, I put it into-- I made sure that it went
into the commander-- with two mailboxes on a cart. That were-- and I made sure that were
brought in, and I physically put it in myself through the feed tray while Lance
Corporal Miller-- not Lance Corporal Miller-- Lance Corporal Bell was the guard
that brought it in.
And, that was the-- that was like early
January. It was like the 5th of
January or 6th or 7th. Somewhere
around that timeframe.
Do you recall also filing with my assistance an RCM [Rules for Court
Martial] 305(g) request to Col. Coffman [the Special Convening Authority] on 13
That was a week and a half after I put in that-- that commander
request. I didn't receive anything
back on it.
So, we went to the next administrative-- I
mean, exhausting, in terms of exhausting administrative remedies. We went to the next one. And, that was-- that was the chain of--
that was the chain of command on the Army side.
And, what did you ask Colonel Coffman [Special
Court Martial Convening Authority ] to do?
I-- through counsel-- through you, sir, I asked
him to review-- at least review my confinement conditions and see if they were
necessary and if there-- there could override-- I don't recall the exact
phrasing of the-- of the document, sir.
And, did you receive a response from Colonel
Through, again, you. You conveyed to me that there was a
And, what was the response?
The response was that-- that it was either non-necessary
or that a cursory look into it was appropriate and they found that this was
Do you recall filing with my assistance an
Article 138 complaint on 19 January 2011?
I also recall that it was the same day as command visit in which I-- it
might have been the same day that I had a command visit with Captain Casamatta,
and raised up the issue of the fact that my 5-10's were not getting returned or
answered to Captain Casamatta.
And, what issues were you concerned-- raising
in your Article 138 complaint, in general?
In general, just the confinement condition that
I was under, and the fact that I felt that, you know, given what I was-- given
the information that I had I felt that there was a discrepancy between the--
through you, you know the-- but in my opinion there was a discrepancy between
the mental health professionals and Captain Hocter along with Colonel Malone--
[missed word] Colonel Malone and what they-- what they saw, as opposed to what
the commander was doing, and I felt it was being done improperly.
Now, you indicated that you started to research
and you made a 5-10 request to go to a C&A board?
That is correct, Sir.
When was the first time you went to a
Classification & Assignment board?
I don't remember the exact date, but it was a
week or two after all this.
So, after the command visit. I remember there was a-- I was slated
for a C&A board. It was an end
of January 2011.
And, how did you find out about your ability to
go to this board?
It is in the rules and regulations for the
facility. I knew that they-- I knew
that-- I didn't-- I don't remember if-- if it is stated-- stated in the rules
and regulations how often it occurred, but I felt like I-- I realized that I
had the opportunity to ask for one if I felt it was necessary.
And, did you appear before the board?
I did, sir.
And, who was at the board to the best of your
Gunnery Sergeant-- then Gunnery Sergeant
Blenis, Gunnery Sergeant Fuller, and another Staff Sergeant NCO. I don't recall exactly who it was.
And, when you got in from to of the board, what
[Missed a few words] I was in full restraints. I was put into the conference room-- the
same room where I would talk to the mental health counselors.
And, I sat down, and then they said that, 'The
C&A board is convened, you have the floor, detainee Manning.'
Well, I reported in first. So, 'I-- I detainee Manning, my
number.' My number at the time
'10075 reporting, Gunnery Sergeant.'
And then once they said, 'You have the floor,'
They sat me. Well, I sat down. I didn't-- I was like, 'Okay. I don't
know how this works.' I mean I-- that
was the first thing I said. 'I
don't know how this works'...in terms of the formality of the board.
They said, 'Just say what you feel about how
you are confined-- confinement classification. You asked to meet here,' and
then I ended up asking a lot of questions.
What questions were you asking?
I realized that it was more of an adversarial
thing. That they-- that they had-- that
they had their conclusion among themselves in terms of the fact that I was
staying on to POI status, and that it was my job to argue against that.
So, I ended up asking questions, because I
didn't know-- I didn't-- I didn't know what I didn't know. So-- so I asked them, you know, what
their feelings on the recommendations were, and how they were being met, and
how processed worked to Gunnery Sergeant Fuller particularly. He was the most vocal out of the
And, did they respond to your questions?
I asked about how the process worked from their vantage point. They explained to me about the
recommendations-- that they make recommendations to the commander.
That those recommendations are based on
information that they received through either the mental health professional,
the-- the behavior reports, the watch's' logs, and all sorts of other
I don't recall the exact, you know, quotes or
anything. Just a lot of the-- 'We
use...' and I am quoting Gunnery Sergeant Fuller, 'We use a lot of different
information points to put a picture together and recommend it to Chief Warrant Officer
Four Averhart, and he-- and we only make a recommendation.
'We don't-- and,' you know, 'everyone else only
makes recommendations, but it is his final authority.' And, that was the way it was explained
So, then I tried to swing them into recommending
me to be off POI, but they, you know-- I wasn't prepared, because I didn't have
any proof, and they wanted-- they wanted evidence.
They kept on saying that, 'We want evidence
that you are not a harm to yourself, beyond' you know, 'you saying that you are
not going to harm yourself.'
After this first board, do you-- Well, actually-- as part of this first board
do you recall one of the board members asking you about your intake statement,
'Always planning, never acting'?
There was a heavy focus on that, and I didn't
realize-- I didn't-- I hadn't remembered that-- that statement was put down on
there on that form.
I mean, I remember thinking-- cause I mean
during the time whenever I went through it-- I mean, it was all fuzzy and I
was-- and I had just arrived from Kuwait and everything else also, and I was
filling out all this paperwork and everything else.
You know, I remember being told, you know-- you
had to fill something out. And, I
didn't-- and I explained that. I
conveyed that-- that story to Gunnery Sergeant Fuller and so he's like, 'So
you-- So you lied?!'
And I-- and I was like, 'I don't-- I don't know
if it's a false statement. I don't
know. I was told to put something
down, and I put something down without really thinking about it. That felt-- it just--- I mean, I felt
like whatever I-- whatever I put down there didn't matter anyway, cause I was
going on suicide risk anyway, sir.'
--and, I explained that to Gunnery Sergeant Fuller
and-- and so he was-- it becomes-- it became an inquisition about whether I
meant it-- whether I could be trusted with anything I said ever based upon
that-- that confusion.
Do you recall as part of that kind of
inquisition, Gunnery Sergeant Fuller saying, 'Well if we can't trust you are
telling the truth at that time, you said something false, how can we trust that
you are telling the truth now...'
'...when you are saying that you are not going
to harm yourself?'
And, you know, I'm like, 'Well, I don't know. I don't know how you do that. I don't know how you leave that
out. From my vantage point, you
know I'm-- I'm the-- I'm the-- I'm the detainee. I mean there's not-- there is not a lot
that I can do from my vantage point.' And, that I understood from that-- from
that-- from that perspective.
You know, it was-- I just kept-- I mean, it just
felt weird because it was-- it was-- it felt so long ago that that-- that that
was. And, that was brought up.
And, that was so long ago. And, I was like, 'Well, what about
now?' And then-- and then it went
and it kept on coming back and forth to, 'Well if we can't trust you then, how
can we trust you now?'
It was just very-- it was just a very
unsettling and adversarial moment.
I felt-- I felt like I was sort of put on the spot and being
interrogated at that point.
Now, aside from this one time when the C&A
board quizzed you about this statement, did-- did anyone else come up and talk
to you about this statement?
Not to my recollection. I don't recall that-- I don't recall
Master Sergeant Blenis raising it as an issue.
I don't recall Chief Warrant Officer Averhart
Four raising it as an issue. I
didn't-- I spoke to him very-- at the point in time, I spoke to him very
And, Captain Hocter never said anything about
it. So, those were the people-- those
were the people that I talked to about these types of issues, and Colonel
Malone, and they never really raised that.
That was the first time that, that-- that, that
moment ever really popped up, and I remembered, 'Oh, yeah. I [missed word] that day. That did happen,' you know.
Now, how many times did you appear in front of
the C&A board?
There was-- they was another two times after
And, when generally from your memory, when was
the second time?
The second time was as soon as I got the
results from the Article 138 complaint-- the justifications and I mean,
basically, like-- sort of like a discovery packet.
It was attached to it with enclosures and
things along with the actual response. Like the justifications of the
response. And, I looked through it,
and, you know, it just didn't, they would-- they would-- I felt like, you know,
again, I am not an attorney. I felt
like they just quote [missed word], like the raw data from-- there was a lot of
these different reports from-- I remember there was-- I remember going through
this list of different things, like, 'Oh, he's'...you know...'Oh he is doing
well.' You know...'being respectful courteous.' There was just a list of different notes
that Master Sergeant Blenis had made, and I just didn't-- I just didn't see
anything adding up from my vantage point in there.
So, I-- So I went in with-- armed with those
documents. They allowed me to bring
those in. And, I felt like...I felt
like, 'Oh, well now that I have--' you know, 'now that I have this evidence,'
you know, 'I am going to be able to-- I am going to be able to persuade the
C&A board.' I felt pretty
confident about that.
So, how did you use this evidence, the next
time you went in front of the C&A board?
Well I came through-- I remember I started
reading through it verbatim-- through them, you know-- through all the-- through
all the points, including the-- including the ones-- ones that, you know-- that
weren't necessarily, you know-- completely [missed word] all that way.
I don't recall exactly which ones they were or
anything like that, but, you know, I read through them verbatim, and Gunnery Sergeant
Fuller stopped me and, you know, asked me what I was doing, and I said, you
know, 'I'm just-- I'm just reading through what I,' you know, 'with the things
that,' you know-- and Gunnery Sergeant Blenis-- Master Sergeant Blenis was also
on this board, so, you know, Master Sergeant Blenis or Gunnery Sergeant
Blenis-- quote 'Gunnery Sergeant Blenis' unquote was saying in these-- in these
reports or in these counseling notes and, you know, I was just trying to-- and
I was just trying to convey to him that the-- I feel that those-- that, that
could be justifications and such given that I didn't have the notes from
I said you know, 'I am pretty sure that Captain
Hocter can back that up as well, and say that I am being respectful, and being
courteous, and trying everything that I can to get off of this status.' I mean it is the only focus, at that-- at
that time it was the only focus that I really had to [missed word]-- there was
nothing going on with the case or anything. So, that was my focus was-- was just
trying to improve my status.
And, when you were using Gunnery Sergeant Blenis'
own assessments of you--
--at the board did you get a sense that, that
was persuasive at all to the members?
That was whenever I realized that the-- the--
that they weren't-- that they had already read these things. They already have these documents.
I wasn't sure if it was just Chief Warrant
Officer Four Averhart answering those, and the C&A board not being privy to
I mean I knew that the counseling notes that
Gunnery Sergeant Blenis-- I didn't know what information they looked at a part
from data points and all this other stuff.
I didn't know what specific documents they were
looking at there, but I felt that these were-- they were convincing.
I felt like I could convince someone with
them. But, they-- they had already
seen them and, you know, it was just sort of-- then they returned back to the--
to-- I remember they raised that-- that question again at the intake-- the
once-- the once, because I was asked three times.
You know, 'You were asked-- you were asked
three times about whether you wanted to commit suicide. Two verbally and one written, and on the
written one you wrote down, 'Always planning, always-- always--'
'Always planning, never acting,' you know,
and-- and I remember being like, 'Well I said no. I am not suicidal.' And
then they are like, 'Well, there is a discrepancy so that-- so we are
not sure if we can trust you.'
Now, after this did you-- you said you went a
third time, what was your experience like the third time you went in front of
Well, I mean I was-- I was-- I went in with the
same sort of-- I don't recall-- I think it was a couple weeks after that, because
I felt like I wanted to simmer-- let that simmer down because the-- because
these boards were quite heated.
They got pretty heated on their end, and so I
felt-- you know, I felt sort of taken aback. I mean I was more prepared the second
time, but I still felt in the end I was getting-- I felt in the end it ended up
being like an interrogation over the question-- over the question on the piece
of paper and then, you know.
I kept on trying to drive it out of there, but
it kept on coming back to that. So,
I came to the third time, and, you know, I was like, you know, I don't really
have-- I mean, I don't really have anything more other than I have another two
weeks where I haven't had a disciplinary issue or anything.
I know that there was-- this was after the
January [missed word] incident and you know-- I had Captain Hocter and Colonel
Malone say that I was good to go on those.
So, I didn't see-- I didn't see a continued issue of that on my end of
course. And, I tried to convey
And, they didn't want to hear it. They told me that unless I had anything
that-- that was new or that they hadn't heard before then, you know, then it
was just a waste of time.
And, they didn't-- they didn't describe it as
that, but-- but I mean that was the general feeling that I got back from them.
So, after that time period, did you ever
request to appear before a board again?
I did not, sir. At that
point in time, I felt that like it was weighted against me.
I felt like they were merely looking for things
to justify their decision that they had already made. So, they had already made the decision
Everybody-- and this is the way I felt-- was
that they would come and have the board.
They would meet, and then, they would look-- and then they would look
for things that would justify their action, and ignore all the other things
that I would talk about.
And, only focus on the things that-- that
helped justify their position. So,
I felt like having to go to these things was fruitless and pointless.
So, I went through the-- back to the legal
channels and the Article 138 complaint and et cetera.
Now, before we go into the next area I want to cover, I would like to go
ahead and take a break. I've been
told that we need at least fifteen minutes. So, your Honor--
--can we have a fifteen minute break?
Any objection from the Government?
No, your Honor.
Court is in recess until 10 minutes after 17 hundred, or five o'clock.
Please be seated. This Article 39(a) Session is
called to order. Let the record
reflect all parties present when the Court last recessed are again present in
Court. Mr. Coombs?
Thank you, your Honor. Pfc. Manning I remind you again you are
under oath, okay?
Now I am gonna ask you a few questions about an
incident on 18 January 2011.
Let's talk about how that day began. Did you notice any difference in the
demeanor of the guards that day?
From around-- yes, I did. From around the latter part of the
morning, so from-- usually there is a lull in activity from zero seven to zero
nine until like the duty hours come in.
There's a lull in activity.
By the time the activities are buzzing around at the facility, people
started coming in-- guards that were just watching us-- or watching me. The vibe had changed among the guards
that were there at the time.
There demeanor was more-- just generally more
anxious and more irritable. I don't
know what-- I don't know what was going on or what was causing it, but and I
didn't-- I mean I didn't-- I wasn't in a position to ask or anything, but I
know-- I mean I definitely noticed a change in-- I mean sometimes whenever
there's like an incident going on I usually know what-- usually infer or figure
out what was going on, but I had no idea.
It's just-- everybody felt-- I mean and I
assumed that it was something not to do with...I just assumed that morning-- if
I remember that morning correctly I just remember-- I remember not know what it
was that was causing this change, but there was definitely a strong significant
difference in their...in their demeanor from zero nine to 11 was whenever I
really started to notice the difference, sir.
Let's go to your rec hall.
Did you notice a change when the guards came to get you for your
What time was this?
I don't-- I don't remember what time this
was. I think it was early
And what did you notice different about the
guards when they came to get you?
They were a lot more-- they had a irritated
voice through their Marine Corps demeanor.
I could sense that there was some-- and I thought they were-- I thought
they were angry at me.
I though there was sort of-- maybe it wasn't--
I mean, maybe it wasn't directed toward me, but there was like a general anger
behind them that they were gonna take out on me.
Who are the guards?
One of them that I remember was Lance Corporal
Tankersly and I don't remember if he is Corporal or not, but I think he got
promoted to Corporal eventually, but Corporal Cline.
And, when you were taken out of your cell, what
if anything happened that caused you to be concerned?
Well, first they started-- they-- they-- they
came in-- they came to my cell, and they were like, 'Do you want rec hall?' You
know, I am like, 'Yeah.' And I
stand at the front of the cell and say, 'Yes Lance Corporal. Yes, Corporal. I wish to proceed with my
And, it's like, you know-- you know, 'Stand by
for...'-- you know, 'Stand by for recreation.' 'Stand by for your recreation
call.' It was just a change in
And then this continued as they were putting
restraints on me. They-- they put
me on-- on-- I put myself on the rack, and they were like-- and then they said,
'Put your head against the rack...' or '...put your head against the wall.'
And, then they put the restraints on me, and
they just-- It was just a general change in the demeanor. They put it tightened. They put their leg irons slightly
tighter than normal. And, I asked
them, you know, 'Are you...?' you know, I remember asking them if they were
irritated or if I was doing something wrong or something like that-- to them,
as they were putting me into the restraints, and--
--they didn't respond to me.
Did the guards ever give you any inconsistent
orders or correctors?
No, not at this time. They were still giving consistent
orders, but they-- they [missed a few words] tighter.
We then-- they transferred me to the recreation
area. So, that's about a thirty
meter walk to the recreation area.
I am guessing the distance. It
just felt-- it felt like thirty meters.
And, then we go to the recreation area. There is usually a chair where they set
me down, so that they can put me on there. And they told me to face left, and I
faced-- faced left. And, they told
me-- I had another person tell me to face right.
There were another two-- if I remember-- it
felt like there were like four guards there. As opposed to the normal-- as opposed to
the normal number of two to three.
It felt like there was four along with GM 2 [Gunner's Mate 2nd Class]
Webb, who is the NCO.
Did they ever say and correct you for not
saying their rank in response to a direct order?
Yes, because I-- as I-- as I am speaking with
one person I am saying, you know, 'Yes, Lance Corporal' or 'Aye, Lance Corporal,'
you know, changing between-- because in the Marine Corps and in the Navy, 'Aye'
is a response for whenever you're given a command, and you're-- you're told to
execute, you say, 'Aye.'
You know, 'I am going to execute.' 'Aye, Lance Corporal.' 'Aye, Sir.'
And, then for receiving instruction-- not
necessarily receiving an instruction, but for receiving to understand something
you say, 'Yes.'
So as I am being told these different things, I
am trying to respond to them, and I am being given all these conflicting things
so I start to-- So, I start to
panic a little bit, because I don't know-- I don't know what's about to
And I-- they've-- they've-- they've never
really acted like-- I never had the guards act like that before, except for
whenever I was put into the intake process they were-- for the-- I call it a
'shark attack' again, you know, basic training style-- you know, everything you
do is wrong no matter what, because you have different people giving you
conflicting orders, and you just execute as much as you can.
During this time do you recall becoming anxious
I became anxious as they were taking off the restraints, and giving me
the different instructions. I asked
them if, you know-- I asked them to stop.
I didn't-- I mean, I might have-- I might have
actually said, 'Please...'-- instead of, 'Please stop.' I might have said actually, 'Stop.'
But, you know I was-- I just wanted them to
slow down a little bit, because and allow me to-- to catch my breath and
understand, you know-- but they continued at it and then I-- as soon as they
were removed me from final restraints and then they give me more turn orders,
I, you know, I began to fall.
And, I remember GM 2 Webb in particular came at
me, as I was about to fall and I thought-- and you know, I am not-- this was
just my panic reaction. I thought
maybe that with the irritation and everything and the fact that-- I thought I
was going to be attacked or assaulted or something like that.
I mean as silly as it sounds, and in
retrospect, but, you know, they didn't do anything. I thought he was just coming at me. He was just coming to-- to make sure I
didn't fall, but my instant reaction was to get away from GM 2 Webb, who is a
So, I wanted to get away from this large person
coming at me at a high rate of speed.
And, I am not feeling very-- my judgment was not perfect at that
So, you know, I just got away and I got
emotional, and I didn't-- I didn't want-- I didn't want them to come, you know,
rush me out with riot gear and stuff, so I-- I said, 'Please stop,' you know,
'I am not doing anything.
I am trying to cooperate as much as I can,' and
I think I-- I think at that point I stopped and I got a little bit emotional,
but they said, 'We're gonna get somebody here to talk to you.' I think-- 'We're gonna get somebody
here,' I remember GM 2 Webb trying to calm me down, and get this situation
And so, once-- once GM 2 Webb was calming you
--what happened next?
A number of-- of enlisted-- a large number of
enlisted personnel from the facility entered in. I don't recall exactly
And, then Gunnery Sergeant Fuller, the Security
NCOI-- NCO of the facility. I don't
recall his exact-- the exact title.
But, he usually dealt with security and operations.
He came and talked to me, and got up-- and I
explained to him what had happened and what was going on. And, then he-- and then he said, you
know 'We are gonna take care of it, and we are going to take care of you. Is there anything else you need? Do you need to talk to anybody? Do you need to talk to one of the...one
of the [MD?]' Their term 'docs'
again. 'Would you like to speak
I said, 'No, I just-- I just,' you know, 'I
just wanted-- I just wanted them,' and I explained that, you know, 'I felt like
they were being rough with me.'
Maybe not intentionally or not, but, you know, I just felt like I was
being roughed around a little bit in terms of the 'shark attack' [missed a few
I wanted to continue on with my rec as normal,
and they allowed me to do that, sir.
And, when you continued on with your rec as
normal did you have any other issues during rec hall?
I did not, sir. I thought-- I thought everything had
been dealt with at that point.
And then, after rec hall where did you go?
They took me back. It was different-- there were two different
guards I remember. GM 2 Webb was
still the--- the DBS [Duty Brig Supervisor] at the time, but they transferred
me back to my cell, and I returned back to my cell.
So, when you say two different guards, they
replaced Lance Corporal Tankersly and Cline?
I don't know if-- they change guards out pretty
frequently, so don't know-- I mean sometimes they don't, sometimes they do, you
know, I am not privy to that.
So, I don't know who, did what or why.
So when you got back to your cell, what did you do?
Well, I went back to sitting in my usual spot.
And, then what happened?
There was a lot more activity going
around. In terms of NCO's walking
by, going to the observation booth and things.
I mean I didn't think to much of it, apart
from, you know, that there was a buzz of activity-- of increased activity. There were guards started to trickle
into the special quarters area and-- and it was really quiet, but there was a
lot of whispering and low voices and things-- a lot of weird things
But, a lot of weird things happened all the
time here [laughs], so I didn't think to much of it.
Did Chief CW4 Averhart ever come to your cell?
I don't recall how long afterwards-- after that it was. It was at least 45 minutes, if not, a
couple of hours.
Again, it's been a long time since this
happened. There was an increase in
the buzz at-- in the special quarters area. And, then Chief Warrant Officer Four
Averhart came to speak with me directly outside my cell.
And, what did he say to you?
He stopped and stood right outside my
cell. And, I stood. I mean, of course, the whole housing
unit is at attention for him.
And, then they didn't-- they didn't-- I don't
remember if they said, 'Carry on,' or not but then he told me to, you know, he
didn't tell me to relax or anything.
So I am standing at attention as he's saying,
you know, 'We just had-- we just had an incident,' you know, 'Why'd you...'--
and I remember him saying something to the effect of-- of, you know, 'Why are
you violating my trust? I've
allowed you to-- I 've allowed you to have this recreation call, so why are you
causing trouble,' and everything else.
I didn't get a chance to explain-- until after
I had been sort of-- I don't want to use the term-- the best term I could think
of right now off the top of my head is 'lecture'.
I don't mean that in a demeaning way or
anything to a field grade Warrant Officer.
But, you know, that's how I felt at the time.
So, he was asking you questions about what
No. No. No. He was saying-- he wasn't asking-- he
didn't ask questions until later.
He said, 'Why are you violating my trust with
your activities and your...? I've allowed you,' and I specifically remember him saying,
'I've allowed you to have this recreation time. I've change the special handling
And, he told me that if-- and he went back to,
if he told-- told-- as he told me before, you know, he's allowing me to--
this-- this exception-- the policy essentially and if I violated that trust,
then he would put me back on, you know, put me back to having regular rec
And, I was afraid that he was going to take
that away at that point. And, then
he started asking me questions as-- assuming I was given the opportunity to-- I
think Master Sergeant Papakie came-- passed by. I don't remember of that was the case or
not. But, I was told to relax at
some point and then he started asking me questions.
And, what questions was Chief Averhart asking
You know, he came back to, 'Why are you' you
know, 'my trust, as' you know, 'your a detainee, and you are a high visibility--'
He didn't say 'high visibility' but essentially
'a detainee at this facility that's' you know-- you know, 'Why-- why are you a
detainee that wants to cause trouble?' essentially.
'Sir, I don't know. I don't want to cause-- I don't want to
cause trouble. I don't want to
cause-- I am trying not to cause any situations or incidents or anything like
that.' I-- I apologized for any
confusion and et cetera.
Did there come a time when you asked him why
you were still on POI?
This was maybe at least five minutes into this-- into this conversation,
and it turned into a conversations.
And, how did he respond to you?
Well, I started, you know, being told to relax
and not be at attention, I felt more compelled to be able to speak my mind a
little bit, and I felt like this was an opportunity since I had the senior
staff there, you know just to-- just to make one more-- to make one-- have one
more change to argue and to try to keep them from effectively putting me on,
you know-- to take my recreation call away, which was my concern at that
And, and, he was not happy about the fact that
I started to-- to ask questions and state, you know, that I felt that-- that,
you know-- you know, I felt that I was trying so hard and why couldn't I just
get a little bit more.
And, how did he respond to your questions about
He-- he gave me the-- he gave me the answer
that, you know, 'It's my decision.
This is my facility. I am
the Brig Commander,' you know, ' I am the Brig OIC [Officer in Charge]. I am the Brig Commander,' you know, they
don't really use the term 'Commander' by itself, but 'I am the Brig OIC,' and
'I make the decisions, and you,' and he said quite a number of times, you know,
'I feel like you violated my trust,' you know, 'in allowing you to have this privilege.'
And, I countered that with, you know, I felt
that I should not be on POI. And,
you know, I have put in these complaints and things, and the, you know, the 138
complaint had been put in at this time, you know, I started to talk about
And, he felt that I-- from what I gauge-- I
mean, I think he felt insulted by the fact that a detainee in a cell was, you
know, saying these things, sir.
Sorry that happened.
And, so when you started pushing back, what did
Chief Averhart do?
What is that?
When you started pushing back on, 'Hey I don't
feel I need to be in POI. I don't
understand why I am in POI,' what did Chief Averhart do in response?
Chief Warrant Officer-- Chief Warrant Officer
Four Averhart he got angry.
I mean, he was furious. I've-- I've only seen a field grade-- I've
only seen a field grade officer angry twice in my life at this level. Once in-- at Fort Drum, whenever he--
somebody found out that-- about something really terrible, and this was the
only other time.
And, I've-- you know it was just-- I was just
blown away. I mean, I was scared at
this point. He was yelling. I mean, I felt like he was yelling at me
at this point.
Did you ask him to stop yelling at you?
And what did he say in response?
I went back to attention and just listened.
And, then he left and said-- he yelled-- and I remember Master Sergeant Papakie
was-- was there at this time.
I am standing at attention, and he said to the
guards who were standing outside the booth, and they had sort of their jaw-- a
jaw drop look on them-- he said-- he turned to them and said, 'Special move. SR
And, I-- I lost my demeanor at that point, and
then I humbled-- I mean I was like-- I can't believe, you know-- you know, I am
trying to keep from losing my recreation call, and I am being put on-- I am
going back to square one since I got here.
And, I almost-- I almost punch the wall. I mean I was so pissed, anxious, furious,
just a lot different-- just shock, you know.
Were you striking yourself in the head during
I grabbed-- I grabbed at my head.
I mean, just-- I was-- I mean, just-- I don't know how else to
describe-- you know, the way I was feeling apart from, you know just, I didn't know--
I didn't know what to do at this-- I was helpless at that point.
So, when you said that you grabbed at your
head, you put your-- your hands up to both side of your head, just above your
ears, is that what you did?
If I'm-- you know, I lost my-- I was-- I was standing at attention one
second, and now I'm not.
I'm standing just losing my-- I lost my demeanor
at that point. I-- I don't know if
I yelled at that point. I think I
did. I was just like, 'Oh, God,' or
something like-- like that. Some--
Now, how soon after this incident did you start
having a conversation with Master Sergeant Papakie about what just occurred.
Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart stormed off
after he said, 'SR' or 'Special Move SR' to the guards and stormed out.
And, Master Sergeant Papakie was still there,
and then Gunnery Sergeant...I don't remember the exact order of the
conversations, but Gunnery Sergeant Blenis eventually came in and talk to me.
And, at that moment did you know--
--then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis.
At that moment did you know that they were video taping you?
I saw the video camera at some point. I did not think that they were recording
the entire conversation.
I thought that they-- I saw-- I saw at some
point, I don't remember where, I was like, 'Is that a video camera?' Because I
hadn't seen a video camera in a very long time. So, it struck me as something odd.
I didn't even know that they had such a thing,
as a hand held camera . Because
there were cameras in the ceilings everywhere-- you know, in the facility, but
this was the first time I had seen a digital camcorder. I thought they were [missed a word]
going to happen, but I didn't think they were recording me at the time.
Alright, so. The-- the time period when Chief
Averhart leaves to the time period that Master Sergeant Papakie now is there talking
to you in your cell. How much time
would you estimate has transpired?
I don't recall. I really don't. Minutes.
So, what we're going to do, is we are going to go ahead and to take a
look at the two videos from that time period, and I am going to ask you a few
questions about that.
I've-- I've got the screen there, so.
[A video of Pfc. Manning standing behind
the cross thatched bars of his Quantico cell, being forced to hand over his
clothes is having the following exchange with two senior staff members and
guards at the Quantico Brig on 18 January 2011.
Image source: Clark Stoeckley
the video are Pfc. Manning, Master Sergeant Papakie, Gunnery Sergeant Blenis,
and Gunners Mate 2nd Class Webb.
of technical problems, only audio was available to the press pool. The video, however, was viewable in the
transcript of the video was available in the defense Article 13 motion. I have
left some speakers that I could not name labeled as they are in the Article 13
motion, vis. 'redacted' or 'XXXXXXXXXX'.]
Master Sergeant Papakie
know what you're getting at, ok? I'm telling you that we're not outside the
rules and regulations of anything that we're doing. Period. We're not. So I
need your clothes.
fine, sir. [Manning strips to his underwear. The rest of the conversation takes
place with PFC Manning in his underwear].
... leave those on.
going to get someone over here to talk to you. ... You have one mattress, right?
You have the one suicide blanket, right?
shoes are fine. Let's get the doc over here. XXXXXXXXXX Sit down and see what's
going on. Alright? I need you calm right now, alright? The escalation in your
demeanor, alright, weighs us on the side of caution. Do you understand that?
Just for a moment. This person here that is closest to the
camera, who is this?
That is Master Sergeant Papakie.
And the person that is now facing you, that is
just in front of him, who is that?
That is then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis-- Master
And the taller gentleman who is standing behind
him, who is that?
That is GM 2 Webb, Gunners Mate 2. It's an E5 position.
best way to explain that to you is you had an outburst. You were moving around.
You almost punched a wall. You're kind of throwing yourself around in the cell.
To make sure you don't hurt yourself we're putting you on a suicide risk
status. We're upgrading your status.
I'm not a suicide risk.
not for me to decide. I have to make sure, the brig officer has to make sure,
that you're taken care of.
the manner that you're not going to hurt yourself. Right now, I don't know
that. With the display I saw right now, I'm not comfortable with. He's not
comfortable with. Until we get something otherwise, this is how it's going to
was I on, why was I on prevention of status for almost 6 months?
to himself] I know this is no secret to you ... I have plenty of documentation.
Plenty of documentation based on things that you've said, things that you've
done. Actions – I have to make sure, we have to make sure, that you're
taken care of.
that you've said and things that you've done don't steer us on the side of "ok,
well, he can just be a normal detainee." They make us stay on the side of
what about recommendations by the psychiatrist to remove me off the status?
here every day? Who's here every day? We are. Who sees you every day? That's
all he is, is a recommendation. We have, by law, rules and regulations set
forth to make sure from a jail standpoint that Manning does not hurt
himself. Maybe from a psychiatric standpoint, the recommendation he's given, I
get it, I got it, understand, OK? But he's not the only decision maker. A
mental health specialist is not the only decision that gets made.
understand that, sir.
The windows down here, is that-- are those the
windows that you get natural light from?
If you put-- if you place your head up against
the thatched portion where the door is--
--and you poke your eye through barely you can
see the reflections, but you can't actually see the window. You can't see the window itself from
inside the cell.
And are these the bars that they said you were
licking, or appeared to be licking, when you were sleep walking?
I assume so, Sir.
leaves and XXXXXXXXXX enters] [inaudible]
got dizzy ...
I was anxious because I didn't know why the guards were so edgy. ... They raised
their voice ... And I didn't ... I was getting anxious because they were getting
anxious. So I was trying to figure out what was the cause of them getting
anxious. It seemed to me that they were looking for something wrong...
wrong as in a rules violation, or something wrong as in ...
sir. Because I've been here for a long time, so everything becomes automatic.
So I don't know if I say something and they respond. I don't know what
happened. I've been in, inside so long – I don't remember the last time I
of the rest of the dialogue between XXXXXXXXXX and PFC Manning are inaudible]
let's go back to when you fell down. Did you fall down or did you sit down? Or...
Now the camera goes inside of a room. What's the room that the camera goes
That is the observation booth, sir.
And, what we see here. I will let it go forward a little bit in
a second, but is this figure here you?
That is me. That is cell 192, and the one to right
that has all of my belongings in a box there is cell 191.
So, this would be the view that the guards would be able to have of you
from inside the cell-- or excuse me, the observation room, correct?
Ah, yes. Correct, Sir.
Alright, so let's go to the second video.
Now due to where the camera is at the audio
here is really not so good.
This conversation that you are having with
Gunnery Sergeant Blenis from your memory, what are you talking about?
I am just trying to talk to him about, you
know-- trying to show him-- I just remember, I wanted to convey to him that,
you know-- I am not trying to be a problem.
And, you know, I am trying to talk to him about
POI status and everything else.
Just-- just the usual-- I mean, this-- this-- apart
from the fact that we have the bars in between us, sometimes we would talk like
this in the office.
This is much like the conversations that we
would normally have. Except
obviously I was in boxers and [missed last word].
And, so at this point all you have on is just
That is correct.
And, Ma'am. The defense motion does its best to give
an audio version of this. I don't
believe this is very long, but I do believe that the audio get a little better.
If it doesn't, I don't believe it is necessary for you to see all of it.
second video plays. Because of
technical problems, only audio was available to the press pool. The video, however, was viewable in the
A transcript of the video was available
in the defense Article 13 motion. I have left some speakers that I could not
name labeled as they are in the Article 13 motion, as redacted or XXXXXXXXXX.]
it was mixed. I mean, I was getting lightheaded because I was hyperventilating.
So, I was trying to stand up. I was trying to keep from falling because I was
worried that if I fell, then everybody would panic and that would make matters
worse. So, I tried to stand up and I ended up falling...
Gunnery Sergeant Blenis
me from end of rec hall to ... where we are now ...
yes, I started, I got in here and it was normal. And then I started reading my
book. And then, I want to say it was MSGT [inaudible] that was the first to
show up. And then he came in and was asking me all these questions. I was, ah,
trying to figure out how to word the answers without causing any more anxiety.
I was trying to figure out ways of not sounding, or not being construed as ... ways
that things weren't going to be construed so that ... just trying to figure out
ways in which I could tactfully say what I was trying to say without violating
any rules and regulation or raise any concern about ...
already raised... [inaudible]
but I'm trying not, I'm trying, I'm trying to avoid the concern, and it's
actually causing the concern. I mean, cause, I'm getting ... every day that
passes by, I'm getting increasingly frustrated, I'm not going to lie. Because
I'm trying to do everything that I can not to be a concern, therefore I appear
as though I am causing more concern. Or I ... Or it seems that I'm causing more
concern or everybody's looking for something to cause concern. So that's what
frustrates me. ... Trying to work out the most politically correct way of ...
inaudible] Let's go back to today. ... The anxiety here, today. That's not the
first time it's happened since you've been in confinement. As far as I know, it
is the first time it's happened since you've been here ... but a similar
wasn't, in Kuwait, I had no idea what was going on generally.
would you say it was similar situation?
no. The situation that happened today was more of ... you know, I'm lucid and
aware and just trying to figure ... It's just a question of trying not to appear
like I was in Kuwait. Because that's my main concern every day, is how do I get
off of POI status? How do I get off of POI status? When will I be taken off of
POI status? What is being used to justify the precautions? You know ... What
concerns, you know, what am I doing that's concerning [inaudible]? So I'm
constantly trying to figure out, run through all of those things. And trying to
make sure I'm not doing anything...
[inaudible] ... As time goes on, we have
less of a concern, ok?
GYSGT. But the restrictions were still in place. And I was ...
And we continually... We understand it's not normal that we have someone in POI
for this period of time...
not [normal] ... I guess we'll just leave it at that. So as we go on, we're going
to lessen your restrictions. They're still be restrictions in place ...
[inaudible] But I would have to disagree with you as far as what happened today
happened in Kuwait ... anxiety attack ...
in Kuwait, I wasn't lucid. I had... [guard interrupts]. It was like a dream...
they both ultimately ended up in you having an anxiety attack ... controlled
fall, but ...
I don't remember falling in Kuwait at all.
I can tell you, that's what was reported to us ... none of us were there [refers
again to PFC Manning's suicide status Kuwait] ... Us, as a facility, we have to
always err on the side of caution, okay. And not just the side of caution, but
over-caution. Especially when we're talking about suicide, okay? Nobody's
saying you're going to kill yourself, alright? [inaudible] But we always have
to be more cautious than that. But you're saying that 'nobody else is on
suicide watch.' The thing is what happened in Kuwait, what happened today ...
are totally different. I understand, I understand, I understand, where you're
getting that ... from the documentation. I mean, I quite, I know where I am. I
know I am ... I know I am at Quantico base facility. I know that I'm at a brig.
I mean, I'm lucid and aware of where I am. I'm not ...
asked [MSGT] a question ... about why you're on suicide watch, I'm trying to
answer that question, okay? Did I answer that?
– no. No, with context. Because the fact that ...
Did you understand that?
would have understood had ... had I not been ... I would have understood had
... had I not been ... I mean, I'm trying to think of how to word this proper
a little. I feel like the facility, honestly, I feel like the facility is
looking for reasons to keep me on POI status.
I can tell you 'no'...
mean, at least not at the staff level, I'm thinking the CO [Commanding Officer]
– me, myself, personally.
Inaudible ... From a logistical
standpoint, it's a burden on us. ...
finds that as a joy. It's not a punitive thing, I understand why someone would
see it as a punitive thing because restrictions placed [inaudible] ... I can
tell you that ... since you have been here ... I wish I had a hundred Mannings
Did you hear there-- where he told you-- Gunnery
Sergeant Blenis said as far as your conduct, 'I wish I had a hundred Mannings'?
Yes, I did. I heard very often from then Gunnery
that's what... And that's where I don't understand why the continuation of the
policy and restrictions beyond the time recommended by you and the
psychiatrist. I mean the psychiatrist, is saying. I mean, I've got my own
forensic psychiatrist that's saying now that the POI status is actually doing
psychiatric harm and not, you know, and it's actually, you know, increasing my
chances, rather than decreasing...
you feel like that two weeks ago?
two weeks ago, I asked you, like, how you were feeling and you said you were
fine, do you remember that?
and I still feel fine. I mean, I feel, I feel fine, but at the same time, I've
been putting in, I've been putting in...
[Second video ends.]
Is there any copy of this that has a better
audio? A clearer audio? [Missed a
Your honor, [missed a sentence]. [Missed] tried
to provide a transcript. [Missed a few words] can't find it. But, this is the best copy that we have
Yes, Ma'am. If it is listened to on an individual
computer, it substantially clearer than over loud speakers.
[to Judge Lind]
It is-- I believe attachment 25 of the
[to Pfc. Manning]
So, Pfc. Manning, looking at that video, what
thoughts come back to your mind today?
I mean-- I haven't seen that video in several
months. So, you know-- it just
brings that back, you know, the fact that I was there and everything else.
Just a-- it's weird seeing-- it's also weird
seeing myself from the third person.
I understand. So, on that day what were you doing the
rest of the day, once you were put on suicide risk?
I sat-- out-- I had been spoken to following
this by Captain Hocter and Captain Moore was also there.
And they sat down, and I talk to them.
And, and then I spent most of the day just
sitting there with-- I believe there was a PFC that was assigned into-- I think
it was PFC [Randy Wa?] was-- sat down right outside
the cell and watched me on suicide risk.
Now, in the video you had your glasses. Did they ever remove the glasses from
Later that day they removed the glasses. I think I got them back at some
point. I don't know if it was the
same day, or if it was a few days later.
I don't recall. But, I do know that for a brief period
of time I had them removed [missed two words].
And, a night had them removed-- at night, or
after-- after taps.
And, if you are stripped down to your underwear
at that point, is there a time that they give you additional clothing during
Not on suicide risk, which they put me on after
that. Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart put me on Suicide Risk.
So, for the rest of the day, you were just in
For the rest of my day I would-- well, I had
I had the POI blanket. So, I just sat there on the-- on the
mattress. I had the blue mattress
at that point, and I just sat there with a POI blanket just wrapped over me.
How many days, from your memory, were you on
Suicide Risk, before you were put back on POI?
It was less than a week if I recall
I mean there was-- there was a-- there was a
period of time when-- cause I remember Captain Hocter came and he said that he
was going to put me on-- that he was going to recommend that I be put on POI,
but not suicide risk.
Now, the following day that you were still on
suicide risk, were you just in your boxers or did they give you additional
clothing on that day-- to the best of your memory?
They might have given me a T-Shirt. I don't recall exactly. Yeah, I probably should say, because I
So, let's go back to your Article 138 complaint--
--for a moment. When did you receive the response-- to
the best of your memory-- to your Article 138 complaint?
The response to the Article 138 complaint was
on-- it was February-- I don't think it was-- I don't think it was like
January. That was January? I don't recall the time. I just remember there being a first.
Would 1 March  sound about right to you?
It was the next month after that.
So, yes. 1-- Not 1 March-- I
mean, late February is what I remember.
That's what it feels like.
So, the-- after you receive--
I-- I feel like I got it before I was suppose
to get it, sir.
After you received the Article 138 response, you also recall roughly
around that time receiving notification of additional charges being referred
I had heard through you that they were coming a
few weeks prior to that.
We didn't-- if I remember-- I mean, again this
is two years ago, February.
But I recall, that we knew that charges were
coming, we just didn't know-- we didn't know the exact specifications or
anything, but we knew the general nature from trial counsel, sir.
Now when you had filed your 138 response did
you have any hope that, that may bear fruit, and result in your being taken off
of MAX and POI?
Not really. I had-- I mean I didn't know what to-- I
didn't know-- I didn't really, you know-- the saying in the military is you
know, 'You hope-- you hope for the-- the best, but prepare for the worst' and I
was prepared for the worst at that point.
Was being on MAX and POI for the length of time
that you were frustrating to you?
It was frustrating, and I began to get more
frustrated as it went on until it just didn't-- it just didn't matter.
There was a certain point, I don't recall
when-- I mean, it might have been February or-- or-- no, it was March-- it was
more towards that after the change over-- the change in command, sir.
And do you recall on 2 March having the opportunity to speak to Master
Sergeant Papakie, the gentleman that we saw first in the video about POI
On 2 March?
Okay, so that-- yes. A months an a half later. Oh this is the-- on that day Master
Sergeant Papakie came by and did a check, but it-- what was unusual about this
check was that he stopped by the cell and he told me to relax.
Because, normally whenever the senior staff of
the facility passed through you were standing at parade rest. I was standing at parade rest or at
attention any [missed word] there was an officer or senior enlisted person.
And it was generally accepted, I mean it was
generally known you weren't suppose to respond except for, you know 'Yes.' 'Yes, Master Sergeant.' 'Yes, sir,' for pretty much anything,
until you had been put into-- unless you were told to relax, and you were given
sort of a little bit of freedom to speak.
And, he had-- he had given me the opportunity,
so I decided that it's been-- it's been a little bit of time since the last
time I raised this with Master Sergeant Papakie, and he seemed like-- he seemed
to be in a good mood, so I started to talk to him.
And, what did you ask him?
I asked him more about the comfort level of the
facility as he kept on discussing.
As we discussed previously, his comfort level
with particularly the commander's comfort level of, you know, me being-- you
know, put onto restrictions or precautions, and-- and I remember the change
over had already occurred-- this was after the change over-- and had been just
enough time to where I thought after, you know, after Chief Warrant Officer Two
Barnes had been put in as the new commander, I thought maybe I could given the
opportunity now, I could get a chance to grab the ear of Master Sergeant Papakie,
and in this moment to-- you know, talk to him about how I felt about it.
Were you hopeful that when you talked to him
that maybe with a change of leadership, the new commander, that, that would
result in you being taken off MAX and POI?
I thought at last maybe I had the-- the
opportunity to have somebody different because I-- I had felt that after the-- after
the 'Special Move to SR' that I was
never going to be able to convince
Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart of anything, so I-- but I felt that
maybe that would be different with Chief Warrant Officer Two Barnes.
And when you were speaking with Master Sergeant
Papakie, what did he say back to you regarding your requests on POI?
Very similar things to what he had stated in
the video we had just seen. But, he
was a lot more relaxed and there wasn't as much tension, sir.
It's one of the few times I was given an opportunity
to speak at level with him. So, I
don't have to stand at parade rest.
I can sort of, you know, be myself, and maybe speak my mind, and maybe
talk to him a little but about different things.
What do you recall him saying to him about POI?
Particularly with prevention of injury, it went
back to-- you know, 'We have concerns,' you know, 'about what happened in
Kuwait,' you know, 'We are not trusting you,' you know, 'We're not...you're
doing,' you know, 'You're doing what you're suppose to but then,' you know,
'there are things that we're concerned about.'
And-- and, you know I-- and, as you know-- and,
I just-- I tried to plead with him just a little bit about, you know, making
small changes to the POI, you know-- just maybe chop at-- chop away at it
between the different-- maybe they would have sort of a-- if I couldn't get
prevention of injury, you know, removed, maybe I could chip away at different
things, and have a gradual change over the-- over a period of weeks or
And, he said that he might convey that to Chief Warrant Officer Barnes.
Did you ever convey to him any comments about
There was a moment in there where, you know-- I just wanted to convey
the fact that, you know, I've been-- again I kept on telling him I've been on
the status for a long time, you know-- and I am not doing anything to harm
I mean, I have, you know-- and it came back to,
you know, 'I've been in here and yet,' you know, 'I'm not throwing myself
against the walls or' your know, 'jumping up and down,' you know, 'trying to
[missed word] into the toilet and drown...' you know just all sorts of different
examples of how-- you know, if I-- if I was really a danger-- if I-- if I, you
know-- you know, just venting a little bit about, you know-- about how if I was
a danger to myself, you know I would-- I would, I am sure I would generally act
Did you ever tell him--
--and I used the underwear as an example, you
know-- I said to him, you know, 'If I really wanted-- if I really wanted to
hurt myself, I mean wouldn't I just use the things that are here now,' you
know, 'the underwear, the flip flops.
These are all-- these are all things that could,' you know, 'they
could-- they could potentially be used,' you know-- you know, 'as something to
harm oneself of others,' you know.
'And, when does it stop? Does it stop with removing walls? Does it stop with the padding,' you
know, 'everything? Does it stop
with a straight jacket?' And just--
I vented a little bit, sir.
How did Master Sergeant Papakie respond to you
when you pointed out the fact that you could harm yourself with your underwear
or your flip flops if you wanted?
He was nodding through that and he continued on
the conversation and, you know-- I don't recall when it switched over to-- I
mean there was no-- there was no immediate change in the conversation.
I mean I just-- I actually thought that maybe
my point had gotten across, cause he was nodding, you know-- not quite smiling
from-- he wasn't a person-- a person to really smile much, but I felt like he
was listening and understanding-- I mean nodding, and we continued our
At any point until the conversation ended, did
you see from him demeanor any sort of alarm or concern, based upon what you
No, I actually thought-- I actually thought the
opposite was occurring. I thought--
I thought-- I thought I was actually getting through to Master Sergeant
Papakie, so I continued.
Now, after this conversation completed, did
anything about your handling instructions change?
Not immediately. It was a couple hours later that they
came with different handling instructions for night.
And, what was different about the handling
instructions at night?
They removed-- they removed my underwear, and
they took my flip flops out of my cell
for the two things that I-- that I had been-- mentioned in particular.
And, so when they removed your underwear at
night, I imagine this was the night of the 2nd of March when you made the
The comment was made near the afternoon.
No, I mean the 2nd of March is when they
removed the underwear from you at that point that night?
Well they-- yes, they-- they-- they executed
the special handling instruction.
And, what were you sleeping in then, on that
I slept with my POI blankets, my prevention of
injury blankets and mattress.
They took my glasses away. They took my flip flops away. They took my underwear away. They took my T-Shirt away. My sock. All of most of it.
Did anyone explain to you why there was a
change in your handling instructions?
I've, you know-- I've since-- I mean, you know,
because of the specific-- the specificity of those two things I sensed that--
that-- I sensed what had happened.
But, no one actually told you?
I don't recall. I don't recall who came by. I think it might have been Master
Sergeant Blenis, then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis that kind of came by and explained
to me the-- maybe it was Chief Warrant Officer Two Barnes, herself, that came
by and actually told me that the-- special handling instructions. Somebody-- somebody came by and
explained it to me, Sir.
Alright, so the next morning at the morning
reveille, the morning call, what happened on that morning?
The morning of March 3rd was the first day that
I had the special handling instructions changed.
So, they called-- they announced, 'Reveille
Reveille Reveille' as they do every morning at zero five.
And-- and-- I stood and I grabbed-- I grabbed
the POI blanket and I stood at parade rest for, 'Stand by for count.'
They announce, 'Stand by for count.' So, I sat that for maybe two to three
minutes with the POI blankets over me, sitting upright, because I wasn't
allowed to lay down with the lights on.
And then I stood at parade rest with the
blanket until and I couldn't see because of my glasses were taken away.
So, one of the guard-- the guard that was in
the observation booth opened the door a crack and stated-- he stated or asked,
'Is that you stand at parade rest, detainee Manning?'
And I say-- I wanted to clarify, you know, if
he-- if he wanted-- I requested if he wanted me to place it-- and he-- I don't
recall if he said, 'You know what to do,' or something like that, but I knew,
you know, I knew it was an indirect command.
So, I placed my POI blanket back on the
mattress, and stood at parade rest.
And the time that you are standing at parade
rest at that point--
--and I said-- I said, 'No, Lance Corporal' to,
'Is that how you stand at parade rest?'
I said, 'No, Lance Corporal.'
I guessed at the rank, because I couldn't see him.
So, went you put the blanker back and stood back at parade rest, you had
no clothing on at that point?
I had no socks, no underwear, nothing. I had no articles of clothing. I didn't have glasses. So, no. No, sir.
And, where were you standing as far as your
At the door. The same door that you see in the video,
and it's right at the front of the cell.
I don't know if it was 191 or 192.
But at the front of the cell, Sir.
Was the cell door open or closed at that point?
The cell door was closed. They don't-- I mean, they don't-- I 'm on POI status at this time, they
don't-- The only time they open the door is if I am in full restraints, sir. Or if there is an immediate emergency,
And, while you are standing there naked at
parade rest, did anyone come out of the observation booth and direct you at
that point, 'Private Manning, cover yourself with the blanket'?
So, what happens next?
Well, they announce-- because they can see-- because
in the observation booth they have cameras.
They announce ahead of time the fact that alpha
row door to the housing unit was about to open, and so they announce, you know,
'Stand by for count,' you know.
'Stand by for Count,' again.
And then, [with a Marine Corps voice] 'Special Quarters, Attention,' or
'Ten-hun' in the Marines Corps, they don't-- I don't
know how exactly they say it, but they called us to attention.
And, I stood at attention, and then the DBS,
who was wearing-- who was wearing-- who was wearing the [missed word] cap,
Marine Corps uniform.
So, I knew it wasn't GM 2 Webb. So, it was a Marine-- so, it was the
Marine DBS passed by and did his.
And I saw the-- I can't see detail, so I
couldn't see the face. I couldn't
see rank. I knew it was a DBS. But,
you know I saw the knife hand for the count, and then he passed by, and then-- and
then everything continued as normal.
--and then they called us back to parade rest
after. And, then they announced, 'Count clear,' you know. Over-- they open the door and said,
'Count clear,' you know, or, 'Carry on.'
So, I-- and, then I proceeded to sit back down
on the-- on the-- one the mattress until the guard came by with my clothing and
Alright, so. The time period that you are up front
standing naked and they announce the-- the fact that they are going to do the
count, how long are you there standing naked either at parade rest or attention
before the count is done.
I was standing at parade rest for about three
Standing at attention for a minute and a half
to conduct count, and then I was standing at parade rest for another three or
four minutes until they complete the-- until they do the, 'All clear.' The DBS calls 'Count Clear' over the
And, when-- and you said once--
--[missed] at that point.
--you said once the count was clear then you
returned back to your rack and covered yourself up with your POI blanket?
Now, at the time that you are standing here
naked, and you are doing the count.
At any point does the DBS or anyone else then
say to you, 'Private Manning' or 'Detainee Manning, go cover yourself with your
So, after they complete that count, and you are
sitting on your rack, with your blanket covering you. How much time goes by before they give
you your clothes?
Only about a minute or two. I mean it was
fairly quickly after that. It was
that they-- they waited for the count, because they brought me a razor.
They set the razor on the feed tray for-- along
with my clothes for-- to shave my face, and I put it back. And, we continued on until the morning.
So then the end of 3 March, what happened? Is your underwear taken away at the end
of that day?
At the end of the night, yes, sir. At taps.
Okay, and again, what are you sleeping with in
your bed at that point?
The two POI blankets from-- as a carry over
from the winter, and the mattress.
And, those are the only-- those are the only
articles in the cell that are not affixed to anything. They're not-- a part from my
So, it's my person, the mattress, and two
And, on the morning of 4 March, what happens?
On the next day, they give-- they call-- they--
they-- actually my clothing-- whenever they announced, 'Reveille Reveille
Reveille,' my clothing was in the feed tray-- already handing over. So, I grabbed that. I put it on. They I stood by for count.
So, on that morning when you were standing for
count, were you naked?
For, 'Stand By for Count' and for 'Count' I was
in the clothing that I was authorized.
And, at the end of 4 March, what happens?
At the end of 4 March, I have-- I am returned--
it's the same procedure.
I give them my clothing, and then I have the
two prevention of injury blankets, the mattress with the built in pillow, and--
and my person.
On the morning of the 5th of March, what
The morning of the 5th-- the third day that
we-- that we did this, they called, 'Reveille Reveille Reveille'.
I snap to parade rest. The last instruction-- the last
instruction that I had been given from the previous-- from the previous day,
from those days of before, was not to have a blanket over me or the implied
So, I stood at parade rest. And, they placed-- and then the guard
ran into my cell and placed my clothing, and then I put my clothing on, and
then-- then they called count as I-- and I had-- I was-- I was just about dressed
whenever they announced count.
So, I was put at attention and the DBS counted
me. Then I was at. I was clothed by that time, sir.
Alright, so. For when they-- they announced, 'Get
Ready For the Count,' you were standing naked, and then somebody you said from
the observation room ran out to give you your clothes?
That is correct, sir. Yes.
The morning of the-- well at the ending of the
5th, I imagine you gave back your underwear again?
Yes, we continued on with the regular procedure. I don't know how many days it was before
I was given the prevention of injury blanket?
You mean the smock?
--the smock. Because, I had mentioned the fact that I
had to-- by this time I had, you know, I had to stand at parade rest like
that. I felt it was odd. At that time, I felt it was odd. Maybe, not. I don't know what to tell them. But, you know--
How many times, did you ever have any other occurrences
where you were standing at parade rest naked in the morning other than the 3rd
and the 5th?
They started to put my clothing into the feed tray at-- about five or 10
minutes before they announced,
'Reveille Reveille Reveille'.
So, as soon as the lights come on, and they announce, 'Reveille Reveille Reveille,' the
clothing is there.
So, I can grab it, put it on, and put my
So, I can see what is going on, you know.
And, at some point you say that you got the
I don't recall-- I think it was the 7th. I actually got it, on the morning of the
7th, it would have been, I grabbed my clothing ten minutes before, they would
have put it there before-- announcing
reveille and lights on.
And, then I grabbed my clothing. I put it on that day, but that was
before the smock.
Now, after this time period, was there ever a
day in which you did not have to surrender your underwear at night, before you
left to go to the JFCF [Joint Regional Correction Facility Leavenworth on 20
They would give me my-- they would give me the smock, maybe, five
minutes before they announced taps. ' 'Taps. Taps. Taps,' was what they would announce.
They would stuff the-- the smock into the feed
tray. I would receive it, and I
would place-- then I would put it on, and then I would undress with the smock
sort of over me as a blanket. And
then I would wrap it up--
Before we going into our next and last section, if I could. Can we have another fifteen minute
Alright Court is in recess then until 20
minutes to 19 hundred, or seven o'clock.
Please be seated. This Article 39(a) Session is
called to order. Let the record
reflect all parties present when the Court last recessed are again present in
Pfc. Manning, I again remind you that you're
Alright. I'd like to talk to you now about your
relationship with CW2 Barnes, the Brig OIC, who replaced Chief Averhart.
Do you recall, well she reports that your
communication with her changed overtime, were you became more quiet and
Is that your memory of the events?
That is correct, sir.
And, why did you become more quiet with her
Well, when I first met Chief Warrant Officer
Two Barnes, I realized that she was replacing and-- although she was replacing
the role of the-- of being the Brig OIC.
So, and I knew that-- I mean-- and I knew sort
of-- I knew generally, at that time-- I knew specifically what her role in the
process of my status was at that time.
So, I felt that-- I felt that perhaps, you
know, she might listen or look at things differently-- look at the-- the
information involved with making these determinations-- these final
Did you have a conversation with were you
talked about stuff?
I remember being more forthcoming at the very beginning with-- with
Chief Warrant Officer Two Barnes, because I-- I mean I thought that she might--
she might look at things differently so I want to-- I certainly wanted to
engage her, and-- and make her feel comfortable.
Now during your conversations, who else was
present, besides you and Chief Barnes?
Well, I mean it might have been a counselor
present, the counselor, Master Sergeant Blenis or then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis,
or Staff Sergeant Jordan played a small role-- a smaller role as the
But, I don't recall, and then Master Sergeant Papakie,
being the NCOIC-- was the-- it's more of an Army term, but 'battle buddy' of
the OIC, so.
And, where were these conversations taking
place between you and Chief Barnes?
The most significant one that I-- the most
significant ones that I remember, were when she first spoke with me.
She actually pulled me out of my cell, and sat
me down in the conference area.
We talked and she, you know, explained the fact
that she was the new OIC and she wanted to talk to me, and get to sort of know
me better, sir.
And, did you have another conversation with
her, where you started asking her about what she needed to do to get off of
Yes [missed two or three words] almost all of
the early conversations involved that questions, sir.
And, at any point during the conversation did
there become an issue of a conflict between you and Chief Barnes?
I don't-- I don't recall when. I think it might have been more towards
the March timeframe. Early March.
And, what do you recall from that?
I remember. I started-- After-- after some-- after being there
for a few weeks, you know-- I started to feel like this was just a continuation
of Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart on just-- I felt like she was just-- she
was looking at everything from the same-- through the same lens-- just maybe
with a slightly different way of-- of carrying herself and explaining the same
things, I guess. The same
justifications for her-- for her decisions.
Did you bring that up with her?
Yes, I did. And, I mean started to get frustrated
with the whole process.
And I spent most of the time listening at first
to her, and then whenever-- and I feel like I, you know-- she took me down, she
sat me down.
So, I was sitting down in restraints, across
from her on the table. I mean, not
really 'across', but you know, we had a corner of the table.
So, you know, we are not exactly far apart from
each other. She-- and then, you
know, she allowed me then to speak my mind a little bit.
But, as I am speaking my mind, she stops me and
she says, 'Oh, may I remind you that I am a Chief Warrant Officer Two in the
Marines Corp and that you are a junior enlisted detainee,' and you know, 'the
rank still applies here,' you know, and so that, you know--
And I was, you know-- I was-- I was a little
frustrated, but I am not trying to be disrespectful, and I told her, you know
'I apologize that if I seem like I am being disrespectful, but I'm just trying
to get my,' you know-- my sense of things across to her, you know-- to
And, but you know, everything that-- whenever I
am going to say something, she would just say, you know, 'You are being
disrespectful.' And, 'You're not,' you know, 'adhering to the,' you know, 'the
policy of being respectful to me as a-- as a Chief Warrant Officer.'
So, I just felt-- sort of after that-- I didn't
feel like-- I felt like anytime I spoke my mind, you know-- even if I was standing
at attention and being as, you know-- saying, 'Ma'am' as many times as, you
know-- I was still going to be disrespectful to her.
Did you apologize for the perception of being disrespectful?
Yes, and as I just said, I apologized-- I mean,
I apologized for, 'If it seems like I am coming across as disrespectful, it's
not-- it's not that I am trying to be disrespectful, Ma'am. I am just trying to-- to convey my
thoughts-- like to convey my opinions on things and,' you know, there was a
word-- I mean, I think it was 'absurd'.
You know, I don't feel like it is inherently,
you know-- disrespectful word. But
that was my opinion of how I felt the conditions were at that point.
And, I felt that the justification just seemed
absurd to me. And, she found that
disrespectful. And, I apologized,
and I tried to find different language.
And, I think the second time that phrase came out in that conversation.
At any point, during the conversation, did she
tell you that you needed to be careful what you said, because if it did go to
sentencing what you said could be used against you to hurt you?
And, that-- I took that as a threat, not as, you know-- I took that as a
threat that, 'If you-- if you continue to-- if you continue to question my
authority,' this is what I am
reading from it, 'If you continue to question my authority, then,' you know,
'we are going to make it look like you are being disrespectful, and being belligerent.'
I realized then that, you know-- I am dealing
with a facility was-- that dealing with the facility 'at level' or trying to
communicate my thoughts and opinions like that would be dangerous, at that
I felt-- I felt like it was-- it was-- that she
was setting up a mind field at that point. That's how I felt. I mean--
So, from that point forward, did you feel that
it was in your best interest to speak with the staff at the Brig?
I was less trustful or-- I don't know is that a
I trusted the facility less, my trust went down
for, you know-- same with Master Sergeant Blenis and Master Sergeant Papakie,
and you know, just, you know--
I figured, you know, I have other channels to
go through now, and those are the one's that I am going to be [missed word]
upon to the Article 138 complaint.
And, I mean, if we had exhausted the remedies,
and we hadn't even considered whether to extraordinary relief to the Army Court
of Criminal Appeals.
Let's-- let's talk about and incident in March of 2011, where you
removed some people from your visitation list?
Do you remember how many people in general you
[Missed first word] a large number of
people. I had put a version of
everybody that I could I think of that I had an address or a name for on my
visitation list when I arrived at the facility, and I added a couple more to it
over time as people conveyed to me that they wanted to be on the visitation
A lot of people just didn't either show up or,
you know-- and then it ended up that I just, you know-- I don't remember what
the question was, sir.
Did you remove a lot of people from your
visitation list in March?
In March, yes, I did.
Well, it wasn't my intent to remove a lot of
I intended on removing two people in
particular, being my father and Mr. David House at that particular time.
A friend of mine and my father.
So, Mr. David House was a friend of mine, or
not really a friend, an acquaintance of mine through another friend, that
started-- that was visiting me.
And, whenever I was given the paperwork, they
told me that I had to redo all the paperwork, because a lot of it contained,
you know, a lot of mistakes and was out of date and so forth.
So, I just condensed the list to people that I
knew were actually going to come and visit or a part from the two that I had-- that
I had focused on removing, which were my father and Mr. House.
Why did you remove your father from your
He had come by a few times. I don't recall the exact dates, and, you
know, he had conveyed to me, you know-- we just talked-- I mean we just talked,
you know, in general a couple times about things, and then-- and then I
I don't remember exactly what it was, but in
early 2011, and he came by, and I think-- I think it was in March, and he came
by out of the blue, and it was early 2011, but he did an interview later on
that day with like, I think it was PBS Frontline, or something like that.
And, I had just had this conversation with him
that day about, you know, how I am glad that, you know, nobody from the family
is really engaging in doing interviews or press or anything like that, and you
know, 'I am glad that you aren't doing that,' and he said, 'Well,' you know, 'I
don't-- I'm not going to do that,' sir-- you know, and he did that, that same
But, it didn't-- we didn't know this until
later of course. But, whenever I
found that out I just-- I didn't want to deal with my father in that sense,
because I knew that he had-- I found out that he had just taken advantage of
the opportunity to fly, you know-- to get free tickets to go somewhere.
Or, at least that is how I felt, so.
So, you didn't want people going to the media?
Particularly, my family and-- and then the
other person who I removed is Mr. David House-- because he had visited the
facility a few times and I had talked to him, and I was like, you know, 'I
don't want to stir up the press or anything, so please,' you know, 'just, if
you are going to visit me, just realize, that we are at this level of trust,
where,' you know, 'I just want you to talk to me, and be a friend,' you know,
'if you want to be my friend,' cause we were acquaintances.
We met in early, early 2010, and we had met-- we
had a mutual friend, Danny Clark-- this was Daniel Clark. Clark was his name. And, you know, he had visited with Mr.
Clark before, and-- and we, you know-- we had these conversations, and then I realized
over time that he was-- that he was immediately going to like blogs, like to a
particular blogger, I forgot her name, but she-- and then-- and then there were
these discrepancies, like he was saying things that I didn't necessarily feel
that were helpful for-- and especially since, you know, we were just talking about,
again, how I didn't want him to go straight to the media immediately
following-- immediately following, you know-- visitation with me at-- you know,
I just wanted-- I just wanted somebody to talk to, you know, a friend-- to be a
friend, you know-- or a family member, not somebody to-- to take advantage of
that, or use it as a soap box type--
Alright, so. Let's now talk about 20 April 2011.
When you are pulled out of your cell on that
day, do you-- do you know where you are going?
On 20-- on the morning of 20 April, everything
had moved as normal until about zero seven in the morning. I would say.
And, Master Sergeant Papakie came by, and said,
'Get your stuff ready,' you know, 'inventory your items and everything. You are moving to Leavenworth.' And, that was what he said, so.
And, so on that morning then what happened?
Well, I didn't have much stuff in my cell to
begin with-- what I was transferred with.
They put me in full restraints. Moved me to the cell adjacent to me, and
put me into the cell with all of my belongings and everything.
Removed the-- part of the restraints, and then
I started to pack my things, and put it into a container-- like all of the soap
dishes and, you know, uniforms and stuff.
And, then there was a trash bag, which I threw
away a bunch of other, you know, stuff, and then-- and then they carried-- they
put me back in the restraints, and moved to the out-processing and in
processing area of the Brig.
And, with-- and they carried the container with
all my belongings, sir.
And, then once you were out-processed from the
Brig, where did you go?
I was out-processed-- I mean, well I was out-processed
into the-- the-- the in processing and out-processing area, whichever it
They inventoried my things, and that period,
and then I-- I remember there was some Army officials particularly, Mr. Stroebel, I believe was his name. And, he had a PMG [Provost Marshal
General] shirt. That's [missed
word] there from Provost Marshal General shirt, and he said that-- he explained
to me the process of what was going on.
That I was being transferred. And how that transfer was going to
work. You know, how the flight and
everything was going to work. How
the timing and everything was going to work. And, you know-- that he was the-- he
essentially called himself, the 'OIC of the transfer,' the Officer in Charge, sir.
But-- we then moved out of the facility, where
there was a lot of-- it was like a bunch of-- there were a lot of soldier-- soldier
But, they were CID personnel. So they were Chief Warrant Officer Four et cetera.
But, I mean there as a lot of weird movement
and stuff, and I was transferred to the Quantico airfield, in I think a [missed
word] of police.
So, let's skip now to arriving at Fort Leavenworth, okay?
So, when you arrive at Fort-- Fort Leavenworth,
what happens when you start to in process at the JRCF?
We brought-- they brought me to-- they brought
me-- they brought me into the intake area directly.
So, I didn't see the outside of the
facility. They brought me into
basically the in processing section of the facility.
They removed my restraints. They removed-- I had some-- I had some
kind of body armor on.
They removed that, and then I had JRCF personnel--
told me to face the wall, instead of parade rest. Told me what-- then I was-- then
they brought me through the in processing process-- the intake process at JRCF,
Now, as you started to go through the in
processing process, did they ever place restraints back on you?
They did not. And, that surprised me.
They removed the restraints and they brought me-- and they strip
searched me, and then they showered me, and they did scars, marks, tattoos. I do it every time I come in and
out. Same thing.
But, they strip searched me-- I mean, after the
strip search, they showered me.
Then, they brought me out, and throughout this
entire process, no restraints.
No. I am standing, you know-- I am walking
freely with just the in processing NCO guiding me through the process, sir.
How did it feel to be walking around out
I-- I was waiting for them to put me in restraints throughout the
And when then didn't happen, what were you
Well, I mean-- I didn't think too much-- I was
concerned about it, but they--
Why were you concerned?
Well, I mean I am not used to being outside of
anything without restraints at that point in time.
You know, I was expecting them, you know, to
put me back on the status that I was before, you know, just at a different
facility, you know.
And, then they brought me to-- it was
actually. The NCO, Staff Sergeant,
brought me to the-- gave me-- issued me some items, and brought me to the
And, closed the door. Then, the door closed, and then I was in
the cell. But, I had like sheets,
Yeah, what did you have in your cell at that
It wasn't much that had been issued, because
it's a-- there's a-- it's a several day process when they do that.
But, I had T-Shirt, shorts, a couple pairs of
tan khaki-- like uniform, and sheets, blankets, pillow, and some toiletry
And, these were all in my cell, sir.
And, what were you thinking at the point now
you are now in your cell and you see all these items?
Oh, this is completely different from Quantico
Base Brig. I would-- I don't know--
I didn't know what to think of it, you know--
I thought-- I thought it was a huge upgrade-- I
mean, certainly-- but, you know, there was this feeling of, the sense of-- you
know, 'Okay. I know that they are
gonna put the hammer down on me, you know, soon.'
I felt that coming, that sense.
Were you scared at this point?
I wasn't scared at all. I mean I was just concerned, you know--
and I knew-- I had gotten use to-- I had gotten use to these procedures, and
just assumed that they would be re-implemented at some point.
I thought somebody in the Chain of Command
just-- there might have been a miscommunication of something, sir.
So, then the next morning starts and what
The next morning comes, the door opens and I am
lead out-- well, nobody leads me out.
They just go over the intercom and say, you
know, 'Manning. You've got medical...'
I received-- I had a blood test. I had my blood drawn, by a nurse outside
of my cell, sir. There as no
restraints or anything like that. I
thought, again, I wasn't use to that.
And, you said how long was this indoctrination
It was a couple days. They brought-- I mean
they later, in that morning had took me out of the cell, and-- or they opened
the door again. So, it just opens
And, then they tell me to come out, or get
into-- get into my uniform. Come
out. And, I go to a line up with another pretrial-- and some other post trial
detainees, or inmates.
They separated us and then we were led off to a
classroom for several hours.
We did this for a couple of days. They issued more items-- and fill out
more paperwork, and see more people, and just-- this took about six or seven
And, when you are in the classroom-- is this
like a classroom, where I would expect there are desks and you are just sitting
at the desk?
Well it's a-- they call it a classroom but it's
a conference room.
And, everybody is-- they have-- they have the post
trial inmates that are being across us at one side of the table.
And, the-- they had the two other pre-trials,
me, and pre-trial. And, we sat
together, and I was able to talk to him.
I was-- I wasn't sure if I was suppose to. [slight
laugh)] If I was suppose to talk to
him or not, but, you know, I did.
And, you know-- it was just weird. It was unusual, and being out and about
and like not having a list-- not being having like four people move-- be
involved in my movement, sir.
Were you ever concerned at some point that what
you were doing was wrong, by being able-- by talking and being out of your cell
I thought somebody was going to fix what was wrong in terms of my
status, you know.
I thought that it was a-- again, I kept on
thinking, 'Oh. Yeah. It's been a
miscommunication,' and you know, 'They are going to change my status. Then,
after the status report or the status changes, and that's-- that's'
But, that was what I was used to-- was
miscommunication that occurring-- and then, them being fixed, so.
I just expected the same at the JRCF, sir.
How long before you realized that-- well I
guess after the indoctrination process, you were placed in [missed word]
How long for you did it take for you to realize
that, that was your new life, now?
It took-- it took a few days for me to realize
that, you know, this is my new home, and this is how things are going to
But, I didn't really get use to interacting
with the other pre-trials for several weeks.
It actually might have-- I would say it was
probably about a month to a month and a half before I really felt comfortable
talking with people, and being out of my cell without restraints, and
I just wasn't-- I wasn't use to it, and it was
different, and, you know, it was just-- I mean, at first I was almost
uncomfortable, because I wasn't sure what to do, or what I was allowed to
I felt like-- I felt like if I was outside of
the cell, I was doing something wrong.
So, I know I just stand at parade rest for, you
know, for whatever-- And, you know-- and the guards looked at me like I was
funny. And then I-- so, I started
to stop doing that.
Now, as you started to get adjusted to your new
life at the JRCF, did-- did you ever try to harm yourself now that you were in
at 'Medium Custody In'?
Did you ever try to escape?
Did there come a time that you were involved
with another detainee in a physical dispute?
Another pretrial inmate, yes.
There was a-- there was an altercation in
December of 2011. That was about a
week before the Article 32, yes.
And, what happened?
You know-- I mean I had been there for a
We actually moved housing units into this
[missed word] housing-- a housing unit where pre-trials were held in a housing
unit, separate from everybody else.
But, you know-- So I was in the cell-- I was in
my cell. And, then it was like
afternoon-- it was a Saturday.
So, I, you know-- I was just-- was mostly just
sleeping, cause it's a Saturday and I felt like sleeping that afternoon. Just to take a nap.
And, I got out, and it was time for chow. So, I-- I stood by for chow, to get
frisk searched. And, then I remember-- I remember the feeling that-- that this
particular inmate was-- was-- sort of, just making fun of me, and attacking me,
and just sort of a theory I had-- I am not use-- I am not use to this sort of--
and I had just woken up-- and I was sort of drowsy as well.
So, I mean, he started to-- I felt like he
started to-- to attack me verbally.
And, you know-- and I tried to ignore it, because this is something-- this
is not unusual, but the intensity and the-- the intensity of this.
And, I have never had-- I've never felt like-- I
never felt this point this sense of verbal attack-- and then verbal attack, and
then me being, you know-- this sense, you know, being made fun of for not
responding to it, sir.
You apparently did respond to it in a way in
which you got into trouble?
Yes, sir. I did. I-- I don't know what was said. He said-- this particular-- I felt that
this particular inmate said directly something to me.
And, I-- I responded. I mean, I just moved in and I-- and I
went-- and I-- and I tried to punch him.
I mean I guess I tried to go for the face, but
I ended up hitting the shoulder of this-- taller, sir.
And, then after that were you punished?
Well, I mean I was removed from the housing
unit at that point.
I was-- we went out separate ways, and there
was an investigation period.
And, then there was a break, because we went-- I
transferred here for the Article 32.
Now, there was a sense of the tension from the
Article 32 that week as well. The
upcoming Article 32. And, then it
resumed as soon as I got back in January, sir.
Did you successfully complete your punishment?
I was given, 15 days of disciplinary
segregation. And, fourteen days of
And, I completed my-- the last day of extra
duty the exact date, that I was transferred for the arraignment.
So, yes, I completed-- I completed everything
involved with that.
And, since that incident, have you ever had any
difficulty or problems at the JRCF?
And, finally. When you left were seeing-- when you
left Quantico, you were seeing a forensic psychiatrist on a weekly basis.
--when you got to the JRCF did you continue to
see other forensic psychiatrists?
Not a psychiatrist. There was a psychologist, who worked primarily at the disciplinary
barracks, and she was there for my in processing as well.
Well, she came in after I was-- been-- going
through the in processing.
And, introduced herself, and I told her I
wasn't comfortable with-- I didn't-- I mean, she had been working at the JRCF
She worked at the disciplinary barracks across
the street. And so, she-- I mean it
was a brand new facility as well, but, you know, I talked to her.
I talked to her on-- on a-- once a-- once a
month or so, sir.
And, at this point-- did there come a time
where you no longer were being seen by any mental health professionals?
I haven't seen-- a clinical-- in a clinical sense a-- I don't know if--
if I seeing-- Doctor Galloway [sp.] in a clinical sense.
She said that she had been tasked by her, quote
'boss' unquote, you know, to talk to me.
And so, I would be pulled out for these appointments. And, I would go speak to her. And, I don't mind speaking to-- I didn't
mind speaking to her, sir.
I don't know if you could consider that clinical. I-- I didn't see that in-- I didn't see
her as being in a clinical role.
But, if-- if she was, then that ended early this-- at the beginning of
the year, sir.
In this year?
Yes, sir. Right before the arraignment, sir.
Thank you Pfc. Manning.
Your Honor. The United States recommends that we
recess for the night. The defense
and the United States recently coordinated on scheduling, and then possibly
have an [RCM] 802 without scheduling to reconvene tomorrow morning at 09:30.
Alright, any objection?
No objection, your Honor.
That seems like a good point to do that. Let's get a start time for
tomorrow. I assume you don't want
to reconvene is that correct?
Pfc. Manning, if you would go ahead and go back
to your seat.
[Manning gets up and moves back to the defense
09:30 like we did today?
So, we will recess the Court for the evening then and be ready to start
at 09:30 tomorrow morning. Court is
See Transcript of US v Pfc. Manning, Article 39(a), 11/30/12
[UNITED STATES CROSS-EXAMINATION OF PFC.
MANNING ON NOVEMBER 30, 2012]
Alright, Pfc. Manning. I believe you were on the stand.
Pfc. Manning, I remind you, you are under oath.
Private First Class Manning, other than the one
time I was in front of you briefly in the case, we have never actually spoken
before today, correct?
You mean in October of 2011? Yes, sir.
Yes, November of 2011?
So, all the information that I have is based
off of your witness testimony, discovery as you referenced yesterday,
recordings, and only that information.
Not, anything from you?
What I would like to first focus your attention
on Private Frist Class Manning is your cell, as you walked through yesterday,
and comparing that to disciplinary cells that you were not ever actually in at
Quantico, at least to the best of-- of the prosecution's knowledge.
You were in a standard cell under POI and MAX custody, correct?
For Special Quarters?
And, you had three walls, a toilet, a sink, a
rack, and the bars in front?
And, you are in a cell that had a skylight in
Further down the hallway, yes, sir.
And, a wall of windows that we saw in the
There were windows at the end of the hallway, sir.
And, natural light could come into the windows,
but necessarily directly through your bars, right in front of your cell?
You did not have a steel door, directly in
front of you?
You didn't have a steel door in front of the
bars that were...?
You did not live in the quarters that only had
a small window or half, and that was available at Quantico?
And while at Quantico, you lived where all the
other pretrial detainees lived?
For a significant portion, yes, sir. I believe the first couple weeks I was
there. They still had a housing
unit-- another area where they had people.
But when you-- when you for instance left to do
rec hall, or go visit the counselor, had a defense attorney meeting, and you
walked by at time other cells, and they were the same as yours?
Now to talk about the smock that you-- you
showed or you demonstrated for the Court yesterday.
Yesterday, you testified at one point you were
stuck in your smock and Corporal Sanders had to assist you in getting your arms
[missed but affirmative as in, 'Yes, sir']
And, another incident occurred on about 13
I don't recall the date. It was mid-March. Yes, sir.
And, that night that your arms got stuck, you
decided to sleep with your arms inside the smock?
I believe I got into that position as I was
falling asleep. So, I-- I might
have naturally just done that, not really aware of, you know, doing it
But, you were told not to put your arms inside
of the smock?
That you needed a blanket to cover up your arms
if they got cold?
Now to go...to go prior to showing up in
Quantico. I'd like to focus your
attention on Kuwait.
While in Kuwait you admitted to being suicidal?
You admitted to making two nooses and scavenged
for metal objects that could cause harm to yourself?
I don't know about the metal objects. And, I don't know about two nooses.
I certainly made one...I certainly made one
that I know of, sir. I-- the sheet noose, in particular, the one that I
And, when speaking to your psychiatrist
downrange, Captain Richardson.--
--about your suicidal ideation, did you
describe yourself as being patient?
I'm not-- I'm not sure. I just remember being patient wanting to
get off of suicide risk. I don't
know if there was a misinterpretation of that. But, I could see how my words were
construed that way or [missed a few words] Captain Richardson.
And then-- when you arrived in Quantico-- well you arrived in Quantico
on 29 July 2010?
And, when you arrived on your in processing
form, you stated to the question, 'Have you ever considered suicide?' you
checked the box, yes?
I was-- I was told that I had to by-- I mean, they
didn't tell me I had to. They
said-- cause as I'm going through I have the-- I had the guards assisting-- assisting
I mean I was-- I was in restraints, so I
couldn't complete the paperwork without them. And, I didn't think that they were sort
of observing whatever I wrote, and everything else.
But, they-- Corporal-- then Corporal Hanks-- Gunnery
Sergeant Hanks instructed-- instructed me that I had to answer everything in
particular-- in that row and I did not.
I mean I did do that. I put
a 'not' in there, sir.
But, he didn't order you to say, 'Yes' or 'No'
in the check box?
Correct, Sir. He just asked the question, you know,
'You are on suicide risk. You were on suicide risk in Kuwait. Shouldn't you...?' It was more of an implied question,
rather than order, sir.
So, for the question, 'Have you ever considered
suicide?' you checked the box, yes?
And, then on that same form there is a space to
where you can fill in any comments?
And, you, in your own handwriting wrote, 'Always
planning, and never acting'.
I was told that if I checked the box that I had to put something down in
that particular location. I could
have put [missed word]. I could have
put something in...something other than that. That is what I put down there, sir.
Now to speak about the two nooses, what has
been marked as-- well photo substitution as appellate exhibit 416, your
Honor. Do you recognize this sheet?
I do, sir.
Is this the sheet that you made a noose out of?
Your Honor, what has been marked as appellate
exhibit 417. Private First Class
Manning, do you recognize these sandbag ties?
Those were found-- I was told that those were found in my cell, and yes,
they are sandbag ties.
And the noose that you made out of these
I don't recall-- I don't recall constructing a
noosed out of them, but they were found in my cell.
What about the two metal objects that were also collected by CID at the
Those were found in my-- near my cell, or
outside my cell, sir.
Okay. Now to focus your time, or continue to
focusing your time at the beginning-- your time at Quantico, when asked by
Gunny Blenis at the beginning when you started at Quantico, you told him that
you had made a noose out of sandbag ties?
I told him that sandbag-- that I had [missed] had been to me that
sandbag ties were found in my cell at a particular moment, and that I didn't
just do that.
Okay, but you also-- didn't-- well, did you
tell him about the bed sheet noose?
That is his-- just to be clear I am talking
about when you first arrived, in your first counseling session.
Not in subsequent ones?
End of July 2010.
Not clear if Manning said, 'about that time']
And, you did or did not tell him also about the two metal objects that
were also found?
I did not.
So, what I would like to do now is-- is kind of
the same line of questioning about your suicidal ideations, focus on 7 January
2011? As you probably remember
yesterday you testified that, that is when you finally decided to submit a
chit, a DD Form 5-10, about your POI status?
And, that was on 7 January? That date is when you decided to ask for
a review of your classification status?
To the commander, yes, sir.
Okay, and can you describe for the Court the
process of how you submit that chit to the commander?
I requested for a DD Form 5-10, which is-- the
Marines Corps calls it's forms 'chits'.
So, it is referred to as a 5-10 'chit'.
And then I requested for-- and I had to do this
during correspondence time, sir.
So, I was given a pen. And, I filled out-- I filled out the
necessary portion section 'request to'.
And, I kept-- and I filled out one, and then I filled out another,
labeled as 'copy', and then initialed that one, which I'd have, sir.
And then once you fill out the document, what
do you physically do with it?
I had the option of either giving to the guard
or requesting for the cart to actually be-- for the special-- for the forms
that were written for the commander had a cart, in which there were two mail
boxes. One for, I think the
Inspector General and one for the commander.
And, I place the one for the commander-- I
asked, Lance Corporal Bell, to put it into the-- to the mailbox-- the box for
the Brig CO [Commanding Officer] the [missed] outbox, or drop box.
And then, he placed it in it, or I-- or I did.
So, [missed] through the feed tray, and put it in, sir.
And, so like this old ballot box had a lock on
So, the guards can't just poke them in and take
out anything that is submitted by a detainee?
So it's for the IG and the Brig CIO?
And, so you submitted that on 21 January or 7
On 7...on 7 January, and I filled out two.
So, I filled out one for my-- my [missed]. I put in a 5-10 chit in mid-December and
I don't know if that ever got anywhere.
If it got lost or [missed], sir.
So, why didn't the...December was that in the
box, or did you give that to the guard?
I gave that to just the guard. I did not put it in the box.
So, that was a chit that you filled out for
anyone in the facility, but not the one specifically designed for the Brig CO
So, the one that you filled out on 7 January
and dated 7 January on the top, right on the form, that one you submitted it
went into the box, the locked box?
That was 7 January of 2011?
And was that chit that you submitted to Chief Averhart in a locked box,
was that responded to?
Not immediately, Sir.
Okay. But, when was it responded to?
It might have been sometime a week maybe two
weeks later. I had brought it up
with my chain of command, like company commander, and then--
--it's Captain Casamatta. That was my company commander, so.
And, what did you request in that chit?
I requested-- I don't remember-- I don't
remember-- I don't recall exactly what I was requesting from it, but
essentially I outlined the sections of the Brig order that I looked at that I
And, I requested for a Classification & Assignment
board, or to at least to attend one or have-- have-- have one in regards to my
prevention of injury status, sir.
And, on 21 January you went before the board?
So, on 21 January 2011, you appeared before the
I physically attended that, sir.
And, when you attended there, you were asked
why you had made the statement, 'Always planning, and never acting'?
And, you answered then that-- that statement,
when you had made it originally may have been false?
And then another member of the board-- there's
three members of the board?
There were three in attendance. There was
Gunnery Sergeant Blenis-- then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, Gunnery Sergeant
Fuller, and another like a member, but he's a Staff Sergeant. I don't recall.
So, then another member of the board said, 'If
that may have been false, then should we believe-- why should we believe
whether you are going to harm yourself today?'
And you answered, 'yes' to that?
It was a lot more of a-- it wasn't just the
'yes', sir. It was part of a-- of a
lengthy sort of-- you know, philosophical-- I mean that was a philosophical
So, I did that-- said, 'This is a philosophical
question, [missed word],' sir. It
was a more general answer-- wasn't-- he wanted an intellectual answer to that,
Well, what was the, I guess, the intellectual
I mean there's-- I mean, there's-- there's a
lot of things in regards to, you know, whether something is false or otherwise
something is true, you know-- if he was infallible and, you know it's hard to--
it's hard to gauge things, you know, without evidence. So, that-- I was just pretty broad with
Well, what about evidence? But, then again on
the form that they were referencing at the time and they were discussing--
--that is correct, Sir.
--what you had written, which was 'Always
planning'-- in your handwriting, 'Always planning, never acting'?
But then you said, that you didn't really mean
And, so this-- this intellectual conversation
that you, I guess in your eyes, finally getting at the Brig, was about whether
you meant it then or you were being truthful today, then, on 21 January, that
you were not suicidal?
I-- I thought it was more about-- about, at
that particular time-- and I didn't-- I mean I didn't-- I didn't realize that
they were trying to do that, but I was thinking at that particular moment.
And, then after that the third member of the board actually reiterated
and asked you, 'Do you understand the question?' Just to make sure there was no
confusion, and you answered, 'yes'.
So, on 21 January 2011, when you went before
the board for the first time, when asked you still hadn't provided the Brig
officials with a clear answer of what you meant, when you said, 'Always
planning, never acting'?
I did-- I did say that it might have been
It was a sarcastic answer, given, you know, just
out on a whim, because I knew I was going to be placed on suicide risk
I mean that was-- I had been told that. And,
because I was placed on it in Kuwait, sir, it didn't really make a difference,
what answer I gave, because-- I mean-- I was going to be placed on the same
status, sir. [Missed a statement.]
But, if that was the reason, then why would you
ask then to go before the board?
Cause this was, you had said that this was your
first chance that you had thought about, I mean that is what you said
yesterday-- to get before the board to tell them your side of the story about
why you shouldn't be on POI?
But, then when you are given the opportunity,
you didn't-- you didn't take it?
I did, as far-- as far I understood the
process, I did. I just told them
that today, you know-- in January 2011-- again January 2011, I am not
I'm not trying-- I am not trying to harm myself
or anything like that, you know, I didn't understand the relevance of-- and that
one of the things-- and I think that was the issue I was having, is that I
didn't understand the relevance of the July 29, 2010 form-- cause it was so far
I hadn't even-- I had actually forgotten that--
that had even been written down, sir.
So, on 21 January you're saying, something you
actually said yesterday too, at that board your first chance to really confront
--that-- well, your thought of confronting
these issues, you had forgotten what you had written down?
I had forgotten about that form, yes. I forgotten about the intake form.
Are you familiar when you and your defense counsel submitted a 138
You know, sir, I know that I put-- I know
that-- I think I told the Brig staff about it before it was filed--
I knew-- cause I knew what he was gathering, I just didn't know when Mr.
Coombs had officially filed it, sir.
Okay. So, when he officially filed it on 19
January, two days before the board, that laid out everything we have been
talking about, including the original form classification--
--you didn't know-- you didn't remember until
21 January that, that's what you wrote on the form?
I had completely forgot about that, sir.
So, even though on 18 January, when the video
that we watched yesterday was filled, and you had the discussion with Chief
Blenis about that, you didn't remember three days later at the C&A board?
Wasn't the C&A before that, sir?
The C&A board was on 21 January. The video that we watched yesterday was
filmed on 18 January.
And, you had that discussion on that video we
watched yesterday with Chief Blenis, about why did you write on the form, why
did you make the nooses, why there are inconsistencies there, and you both had
a dialogue back and forth...
--parts of it.
--so then when you had the chance to go before
the board on 21 January, you didn't take that opportunity to even explain to
the three board panel, why it was that you made that decision to write that
down on the form?
I mean-- whenever asked about it, I did. At least, I felt I did, sir.
But, you just said that you didn't remember
I'd-- I'd forgotten about the form. That is what I said.
So in that 3 day period you had forgotten about the form?
I would like to do now-- kind of-- direct your
attention to-- is the different avenues that you had to logged complaints of
You just spoke about one, and article 138
process. Did you know about the 138
process before being, I guess, detained in pretrial confinement?
I had seen an ask.com article about it in 2009,
but I had never really gotten into such-- the depth of it, sir.
So, I knew that it existed, sir, but not really
in terms of exact context [missed a few words], sir.
I assume also it is not something that is
normally talked about everyday, the 138 process?
So, you did submit through counsel on 19 January
an Article 138 complaint?
In January, yes, sir.
And, yesterday you testified about the MRE
[Military Rules for Evidence] 305(g) re-evaluation of your pretrial confinement
status to your UCMJ [Uniform Code of Military Justice] command, you submitted
on 13 January 2011?
That's the Special Court Martial Convening
To Colonel Coffman?
You are also aware that-- that Mr. Coombs on
your behalf, submitted to Chief Averhart directly a memo requesting
re-evaluation on 5 January 2011?
On 5 January? I don't-- I don't recall that one, sir.
I had put in-- I had put in the 5-10 not
realizing that, that had [missed word], sir.
I thought I was doing that, sir.
Well, I am actually talking about something
completely different, so you did, at least from the documentation in discovery,
you did file a 5-10; but I am just talking about separately on 5 January, that
your defense counsel on your behalf submitted directly to Chief Averhart, a
Okay, yes, sir. I did not-- I did not recall that.
Okay. So-- so these three formal-- more formal
requests were submitted on your behalf, and then like you just talked about,
the fourth way, is you had the chit and DD 5-10 process either informally with a
guard or formally through the locked box?
But, you also had other avenues to seek redress
directly, didn't you? You did?
I mean, I can verbally ask, that's one.
Well, Colonel Oltman visited you periodically?
A colonel did, a Marines colonel. I don't-- I don't-- they came through
periodically, sir. I don't-- they
didn't really introduce themselves very [deeply?], sir.
Cause I don't think there were even name tags given?
They do, but I don't-- I look at the rank
first. Or I look at it--
That makes sense. But,
periodically Marines colonels, or a colonel, multiple colonels would come
through? And, have discussion with
I wouldn't-- well, they would come by and I
would see them, and they would see me, sir.
You had other avenues of using privileged
Yes, sir, [missed statement].
[Missed] [Sergeant? David? First?]. He's a Chaplain, visit you?
I did have a chaplain visit me, yes, sir.
Did you make any special requests to have
certain chaplains visit you?
We had a chaplain that came by weekly, if not weekly, then at least once
or a few times a month, sir.
And, you mentioned the IG. You know that you had a lock box that you
could submit issues to the Inspector General?
I-- it was also, I 'm not familiar with how the [missed word] system
works, because the requests [missed] system as well.
But, I-- on both of those, the Inspector
General and request [missed] for the Marine Corps. I was not familiar with how that process
But, when the cart would roll by there was a
box that you could submit some papers in, at least, maybe a form, maybe not,
but some-- something in a locked box to get to the IG?
Also, members of your command, they visited
you, almost every week?
Yes. At least once every week, sir.
We will talk about that in a little bit, but-- so,
you had a lot of options to exercise as far as getting redress or lodging any
forms of complaints about your treatments status or anything else going on?
But, you never asked the chaplain to help you
I mentioned about the prevention of injury with the chaplain pretty
Did you ever ask a chaplain to assist you in
understanding why or to change your status?
I talked to him about it. I didn't necessarily make a formal
request with him, but I mentioned the fact that I really wanted to get off of
the status, and then I stopped.
I was surprised that I was still on it. And, you know we talked, and then-- he
was somebody that, you know-- and we had-- he kept-- he was the only other
person that I could talk to on sort of an 'at level' basis, sir.
But he had, I mean, he had other-- he didn't
have a lot of time. So, I didn't [missed
statement] him or anything. And, I am not-- I'm not a religious person, but
[missed statement]. I would still talk with him.
What do you mean by 'at level', like you just
said it today, and you said it many times yesterday? What do you mean by 'at level' basis?
It's-- it's-- there's a moment-- I mean as a
junior enlisted person-- that I'm
engaged at to where you can speak with a-- somebody that is of a higher rank with
you, you know, where you-- the ranks are-- it's-- it's set aside for a moment,
sir, but it [missed a phrase] a person to person conversation, as opposed to a
subordinate and a superior, sir.
Is it the rank that is set aside or is it just being completely relaxed and
having this kind of intellectual conversation?
It's-- it's-- I'd say it is both, sir. Cause-- I mean, you really do have to--
at that moment in my mind, sir, sort of set aside the fact that you're in a
subordinate and a superior relationship.
Okay. And, what was the Chaplain's name that
you said you talked all the time about your POI status?
I don't recall his name. I filled-- I gave to-- I gave to-- I
put-- I remember that I told Captain Casamatta his name whenever he put that down
on the form. But, I don't-- I don't
recall his name.
But, it was a male chaplain?
And, maybe Marines don't have chaplains?
I guess-- I guess he was. He wore the Marines Corps uniform, sir.
It was the ACU uniform?
Did you ever file anything into the IG slot that was locked and would go
right to the IG?
Earlier you spoke about the chit's, DD form
And, you filed six chits while you're at
I think I filed more, but some-- some-- they
had a tendency-- some of the ones that were given just directly to the guards
had a tendency of going missing.
Well I think you are right, first off because I
can't count [missed]. So, at least nine?
I would say it would have to be at least-- at
least a dozen, sir.
And you knew about this chit DD form 5-10
process from the day you in-processed?
From the day I in processed at Kuwait.
You knew about it in Kuwait?
All-- all military correction facilities utilized the DD form-- the DD
form 5-10 system or a modification like that.
What do they call it at the JRCF?
They modify it to their military correctional
complex 5-10 forms. So, that it's a
modified DD form 5-10. They just
remove some of the administrative things for the facility they use it as, sir.
Does it have a common name other than like,
'chit' that they use at--
--[missed last few words].
Makes sense. I would like to go through some of
these. If you don't remember,
please let me know, and I will help refresh your memory?
The one that you dated on the 7th of January
2011, Chief Warrant Officer Four Averhart, that was the one that you put into a
locked box for him?
Correct, sir. And I-- and I-- and I made a duplicate
for my own purposes, sir.
And you wrote on there, 'request lifting' or
'subject for purposes of the interview'-- now they use the term interview, is
it really-- does it always necessarily mean 'interview' like one on one
It's just the way the form is set up, sir.
So, what-- what is-- what is the different ways
you can use this form?
So, you can use it just to request to speak to
somebody. You can sometimes use it
just for anything-- put your-- just your request in general without wanting to
You can-- basically it's your-- it's the
formal-- it's the semi formal way of communicating with the staff at a correctional
facility [missed word], sir.
So, on this one dated 7 January, you wrote, 'request lifting your
prevention of injury status and custody classification review including Brig
justification of MAX custody status'?
And, then you cited the different rules within the regulations?
The-- the-- I only had access to the Brig Order
at that time, sir, so.
So, the rules and regulations of the Brig?
On 4 January-- so one submitted three days
beforehand, you did one requesting books from your aunt?
Yes, I think so.
Specifically, even the books you were asking
for you talked about yesterday, 'People's History of the United States', 'A
Journey in my Political Life', 'Good Soldier' David Finkel--
so, you requested that. Did you get
Some of them. I put a-- I put a-- I put a broad list
of them. I didn't-- they weren't
necessarily books that I was going to receive. Just a-- I put a-- sort of a shot gun
approach, which one's my aunt was going to send me.
By shot gun approach, you mean just everything
you could think of she'll send, and hopefully some of the-- some of them will
And, when they showed up, did you get those books by the Brig?
Not-- not immediately, but I did eventually get
them. Yes, sir.
So, they approved you receiving books, and you
They have a-- they have a process, but I forgot how exactly that worked,
but they had a-- they had a process [missed a few words].
On the 19th of December of 2010, you submitted
a request for an emergency phone call with attorney reference Vice President
And, did you get that phone call with your
I don't know. I had a-- I eventually got an attorney
phone call. I was requesting one
more immediately than that, because I had heard something strange going on, sir.
Well did you talk to him the next day at 12:25?
But, I-- I think the immediacy went away after that [missed].
But, you didn't at the time necessarily know if
it was cause your attorney couldn't be gotten a hold of or whether they
couldn't figure out the system to make it happen?
Correct. I'm not privy to that.
On 13 December 2010, so a few days, almost a week before the Vice
President Biden chit, you asked for 'request gift books from family and friends
for online purchases do not know what the contents of the books are'?
So is that again the shot gun approach [missed]
you don't know even what they are, but you just want them?
And, that was denied, sir.
I'm sorry, what?
And, that was denied, sir.
Okay, and then how-- how about-- how did-- explain
to the Court how it is you would know to even submit these chits for these
types of requests.
The process is outlined in there-- in the facility's
'Rules and Regulation for'-- that they issue to an inmate, sir.
Well, I assume that no need to even [missed a
few words ask? the? Marines?], you would find out from your family and friends
that you wer-- .they were intending to send you
Sometimes in [conferences?], sir.
And-- and then you would then ask to get the
ones that arrived [missed word]?
And then the Brig would have to react based off
your request? Answer your requests?
Of course. I mean [missed statement].
So, on the 13 of December it was denied, but
you were also told that it was denied that you needed some specificity, so they
could put it through that process that you just spoke of?
As you [missed] back in time, so the 21st of