Witness | US v Pfc. Manning, Col. Ricky Malone, Quantico Brig Forensic Psychiatrist

[I missed the calling, swearing in, and a few initial questions by the defense to Colonel Ricky Malone, former Quantico Brig forensic psychiatrist, based at Walter Reed Medical Center in Washington.  Malone stated that he has supervised for approximately ten years.  He does so by discussing the case and reviewing reports.  He performed services at the Quantico Brig and conducted 706 board related functions concerning Pfc. Manning on site.  As a forensic consultant he specializes in policy issues. He became Pfc. Manning's treating forensic psychiatrist when Captain Hocter deployed.  Before that he consulted with Captain Hocter as a reviewing psychiatrist. He recognized appellate exhibit 420(a) as a general form that Captain Hocter used when he consulted with Col. Malone.]

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

[...]it's okay for him to, you know, be free within the confines of the ward, but not be able to leave the ward, and then can leave the ward.  So, those are that's sort of the gradation that we use from a clinical standpoint.  So, there's sort of a gap in that model to defined the facility.

 

Defense (Coombs)

What are you looking at from a clinical standpoint to see that somebody is in fact warranted in being reduced down from the various grades.

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

It's a from the severity of their condition, based on the signs and the symptoms-- what they're reporting.  It's what they will share with us about, you know, their thoughts of self-harm-- you know, their plans or instances they might have. And, then any observable behaviors that you might see that they are actually actively contemplating or making some arrangements to harm themselves.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Now you also-- retrieving appellate exhibit 420 alpha from the witness, and handing the witness appellate exhibit 420 charlie, which is dated 27 August.  You also consulted with Captain Hocter on that day, is that correct?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, can you tell the Court why you consulted on that day?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Both of-- When he consulted with me that was an ongoing process, so that I stayed engaged in that consultation for a few weeks.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  Tell us about that then.

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

As I recall, I did go back and do follow up visits with Private Manning.  I don't recall how [missed a few words] or how many.  I think it was probably every week or two, and then I made probably a couple of those follow up visits.  And, then was really just discussing the case with Captain Hocter, but also based on what-- what he was saying.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And from appellate exhibit 420 charlie, it indicates that Captain Hocter was recommending now taking Pfc. Manning off of all precautions.  And, you concurred with that.  Did he accurately reflect you concurrence?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

He did, but he mentioned the idea of being checked every fifteen minutes.  So, that was were from making the comparison to what we would do on a psychiatric ward, and the [missed word] fifteen minute checks, and that in essence that's what was happening because of his MAX custody status.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Now I want to talk just real briefly about medication that Pfc. Manning was under.  When Pfc. Manning arrived at the Brig, he was under Celexa and clonazepam, and I would like to handle those in turn.  What is Celexa?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Celexa is an anti-depressant or anti-anxiety medication. It's what we call an SSRI, a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor.  It's something that, you know, has to be [missed word] into the an effected dose over a period of time.  Generally takes anywhere from two to six weeks to start having an effect.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And so, for Celexa, he was-- according to the records, and correct me if I am wrong-- he was given that at the very beginning of July 2010, while he was still in Kuwait?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

That sounds correct.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, you say it would take two to six weeks for that medication to take effect?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

At least.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And from a clinical standpoint, when you say take effect what do you start to see when the medication starts to take effect?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

You see a decrease in the symptom side of the-- lowering anxiety.  In his case it was more of anxiety than depression, so that the lowering anxiety and then any symptom-- signs or symptoms that you might have, in terms of anxiety-- like [missed word] shakiness or just subjective feelings of nervousness-- those go down-- sleep improves.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And from a clinical standpoint, if somebody is sleep deprived and very anxious, will this medication help them?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Probably not.  I mean it's not going to take a normal reaction and blunt that.  All it does is if somebody is having a pathological level of anxiety it's gonna let them have a normal range of emotions.  So, they'll still react to the environmental conditions or things that might happen to them.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, what about clonazepam?  What is that for?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Clonazepam is a-- it's basically a sedative in the valium family.  So, it's something that has an effect right away-- you know, calming people down.

 

Defense (Coombs)

So, by the time that Pfc. Manning arrived to the Quantico Brig, he had been under this medication for approximately four weeks.  Would his improvement be something that you would expect to see based upon receiving the medication?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

That and the changes in his conditions.  I mean that a-- just by the-- at Camp Arifjan--you know, you know you are in a temporary circumstances and things are going to change.  You know, getting moved back to the States-- now you know you are going to be there for a certain period of months.  So, there is a certain degree of stability in your environment, but things that happen to you on a day to day basis are going to start becoming more routine.  So, that decreases the level of stress, and then the medication is also having an effect on the serotonin receptors over that period of time.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. Now was there a time when you assumed sole clinical care for Pfc. Manning?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I did.  In the January-- Captain Hocter was deploying, and since I had already been involved, I filled in for-- for Private Manning and then we also-- some of my trainees were coming out there to deliver care to the other detainees as well.  So,  during the course of those visits, supervising them-- and then I would do some-- I had some sole care up by Private Manning.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And when you say January, you are saying January 2011?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Now, once you took over the sole clinical care for Pfc. Manning, how frequently would you see him?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Usually weekly.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And how long would your weekly reviews be?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

How long would I spend with him?

 

Defense (Coombs)

Right.

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Typically an hour.  Frequently, more.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And what was involved with these weekly reviews?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, there was-- you know, just a-- clinical assessment.  That's what is was.  So,  getting an idea of what sort of problems he was experiencing-- what sort of symptoms he was exhibiting.  You know, how his sleep might be.  What his mood was like, those sorts of things.  And then, you know, also-- I mean it was therapeutic as well, and that-- you know, I would sort of focus on the things that were bothering him, and try to help him to cope with those things.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Now, as part of your treatment, did you consider any observations by the Quantico Brig?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I did.  Typically when I arrived at the Brig, I would talk the detention staff about what their observations might have been the past week.  Sometime [missed a few words] review, and then if anything had happened medically that would have gotten me to review the medical records.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And was this a formal sit down-- let's say like the Brig OIC [Officer in Charge] or the DBS [Duty Brig Supervisor], or was this more informal were you talked to whoever was on staff at the time and looked at the log books?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

It was-- it was typically more informal.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And was this a more informal thing by your choice or was this by the Brig's position?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

By my choice.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And why would that be?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, I guess, you know, I get better-- a better idea of what is going on under those circumstances.  You know, anytime I am getting someone-- a third party's observations of behavior, I realize that they are going to put a certain, you know, interpretation on it, and I am not  really interested in interpretation.  I just want to get a picture of what happened and make my own interpretation of it.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  Now as part of your weekly reviews, did you make recommendations to the confinement facility regarding Pfc. Manning's risk of harm-- self harm?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I-- I didn't specifically make recommendations.  I kind of provide them the input  that I thought they needed about his mental condition, in order-- in order to make that decision. 

 

So, rather than actually recommending that he be on some certain status, you know-- so after a short period of time it was my impression that he had little or no clinical risk of self-harm, and that was what I was trying to communicate.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And from your standpoint, if-- if someone has little or no risk of self-harm, is that someone who needs to be on prevention of injury status?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Not-- not from a psychiatric standpoint.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And did you convey that to the Quantico Brig?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I did.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, how so?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, I-- I would always do a report from one of these Classification & Assignment forms, and then you might notice that I actually revised that form after  I had been there for a short period of time.  So, I thought it [would] provide more, you know, useful information to them. 

 

And, then, usually if the-- if Chief Warrant Officer Brig-- Barnes was available I would actually talk to her about, you know, what I had seen and what my impressions were.  So, basically do a little out brief with her before I left.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And these out briefs with Chief Barnes, how long would they normally last?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Between five and thirty minutes?

 

Defense (Coombs)

And when you were expressing to her the fact that Pfc. Manning didn't represent a risk of self-harm from a clinical standpoint, and POI was not necessary, did she respond to that?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

She explained to me that there were other criteria that she had to take into account. So that my input was just one piece of that. 

 

[Missed word] she [missed word] that in order to make that determination.  And, she would give me her impressions of what his behavior-- again, the things that they had seen.

 

And, you know, how they looked at that.  And that would be the general-- some of the behaviors that they would-- they would attribute more risk to that than I would as a clinician.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And let's talk about some of those observed behaviors.  Did the Brig ever share with you the fact that they saw Pfc. Manning talking to himself.

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Yes.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And staring at the wall while he's in his cell?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Right.  Correct.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And playing peek a boo with the mirror while he's in the cell?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Pretending he's lifting weights while he is in the cell?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I don't recall that.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Did they tell you about the-- apparently one time licking the bars while he was sleepwalking?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I don't-- I don't recall that.

 

Defense (Coombs)

So, the other ones that you do recall, how-- how was the Brig explaining them to you to suggest that there was an elevated risk to those behaviors?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, it was just that it was unusual behaviors, and when they would ask him about it, he couldn't adequately explain it to their satisfaction.  So, just adding a degree of uncertainty to them.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, from your clinical perspective, why weren't these behaviors something that was [missed word]?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, we discussed in, you know, I didn't see any intent for self-harm behind those. 

 

I-- I think they were-- it was sort of the defense he would used in terms of intellectualizing things, and so he could-- he would have rationalizations with justifications for some of those behaviors. 

 

You know, I think sometimes, I mean it was just being a bit-- I don't want to say non-compliant-- but, you know, it would be a bit provocative, and that-- he just didn't want to do exactly  what they wanted him to do or sometimes he could actually do just the opposite, and overdo it. 

 

But, I think in-- there was some expectation of getting a reaction.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Do you think the-- from the standpoint of just being in his cell and playing peek a boo or staring at the wall, can that be explained by just being bored?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Absolutely.  A lot of the things that I heard I thought were just a way of him to try to, you know,  provide some sort of stimulation. 

 

I mean, he's an extremely intelligence young man.  He-- he, you know, has a tendency to sort of intellectualize, so he can get very bored. 

 

And, in-- in fact, a lot of the time we spent in our sessions, was really was my effort just to-- to do that. 

 

We would talk about things that you might not see any therapeutic value to the-- but I knew that-- that was giving him some interaction and some intellectual stimulation that-- that he wasn't getting during the rest of the week.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Now from a clinical standpoint, you indicated that you did not believe POI status was required.  I want to talk about some of the other special precautions that they took to see whether or not you believed those were required, okay? 

 

Did you believe that Pfc. Manning needed to have a suicide mattress?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I didn't think he needed suicide precautions [missed a few words].

 

Defense (Coombs)

So that would included having his clothes removed from him at night?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Or having to have-- being forced to wear a suicide smock at night?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Defense (Coombs)

What about not being allowed to have toilet paper in his cell?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Correct meaning that he should have been allowed to have that?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.  I saw no reason for any types of safety precautions. 

 

And, I even tried to communicate that, you know, in a clinical analogy that, you know, if I were treating him as an outpatient, I wouldn't be concerned and taking these sort of precautions. 

 

In fact, if I was seeing him in my clinic, I would probably only be seeing him once or twice a month, at that point.  I wouldn't have any concerns about his behaviors in between.  That was-- I tried to communicate that way was as well.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And when you tried to communicate that to the Brig what was their response?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

'Thank you.' 'Thank you for your input.' 

 

Defense (Coombs)

Did you feel that your input was-- was not being followed, and ignored?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I-- I felt that there were other considerations that were outweighing whatever my input might have been.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, were those other considerations transparent to you?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Some of it was.  Some of it, I think was implied. 

 

You know, I do know that there was a great deal of risk aversion there during that time, because they had had a suicide there the year before. 

 

And, you know, they were determined to not have that happen again under any circumstances.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And did you see the same risk aversion with other detainees besides Pfc. Manning.

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

No, I did not.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Did you ever tell Chief Barnes that Pfc. Manning custody status was becoming another stressor for him?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I did.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And what did you mean by this?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

It-- it was just something else that would add to this degree of stress, and since I was treating him for anxiety, that is just another obstacle for me to have to overcome.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, what was Chief Barnes' response?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

She acknowledged that and felt that it was necessary.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Did the Quantico Brig ever follow your recommendations regarding the fact that Pfc. Manning was not a risk for self-harm?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well I-- I believe they left him on prevention of injury status the whole time, so in that regard, no.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Did anyone from the Quantico Brig explain in any detail why they-- they believed the opinion from their forensic psychiatrist regarding risk to self harm was not being followed?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

No, other than, 'We just don't want to have another suicide on my watch.'

 

Defense (Coombs)

From a clinical standpoint, is being held the way Pfc. Manning was held detrimental to a person's mental and physical health?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, in general being held, you know, in alone in a cell for 23 hours a day is going to have detriment of anybody. 

 

In his case, because I was treating him for anxiety disorder-- again, you know, any additional stressor just makes it harder to overcome that-- but, you know, as you can see, he did-- because, he did eventually got into full remission anyway.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And we will talk about full remission-- but, from your standpoint, did Pfc. Manning's custody status place him in unnecessary risk from a medical standpoint?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I wouldn't say that it placed him in risk.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, why is that?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Because, it is just one other factor that I would consider. 

 

So, it's an additional stressor.  And, so I mean what is-- what is the, you know, the marginal implement that this stressor adds compared to all of the other stressors that he is undergoing? 

 

So, I realize anybody can find that for whatever has a certain degree of stress. 

 

So, these extra restrictions have much more, does that add?  So, it's-- it's increased stressor, which makes it tougher to treat anxiety, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it elevates the stress.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Okay.  During your time there did-- did you ever document to suggest that Pfc. Manning was a risk of escape?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

No.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Did you ever document any behavior to suggest that Pfc. Manning was a disruptive detainee?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

No.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Did you ever document any behavior to suggest that Pfc. Manning was a violent detainee?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

No.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Did you ever document any behavior to suggest that Pfc. Manning was at all a danger detainee to himself of others?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, early on there was some risk of self-harm; but, once that had resolved there was no risk of harm to self or others.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Was Pfc. Manning ever taken off of his medication?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

He was.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, why was that?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

After a certain point of treatment that-- you know, I don't recall exactly how long-- but, several weeks-- maybe a couple of months, he was basically symptom free from his anxiety disorder. 

 

He had expressed a desire to come off of the medication, which is always an important consideration for being-- whether a person actually wants-- 

 

And, so we had a discussion about risks and benefits of-- of the medication-- that in general I would have recommended that he stayed on it for a longer period of time. 

 

But, given that he was symptom free, he wanted-- he preferred to come off of the medication.  And, I knew he was under close observation, so I had a lot less-- I had no risk aversion about, you know, the downside of taking him off of the medication. 

 

So, you know, I felt it would be very therapeutic to, you know, give him-- get him that reference, and to come off of it.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, was he actually taken off of the medication?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

He was.  I [missed a word] recommended over a period of time, and then he came off of it.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Did Chief Barnes ever speak to you about the decision to take Pfc. Manning off of his medication?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I do not recall.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Did she ever tell you that she thought her decision to allow that they take him off of medication was a mistake?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I-- I don't recall that.  Well, we might of-- we might of discussed it.

 

Defense (Coombs)

From your perspective would it be typical for a Brig OIC to question the decision over whether a detainee needs medication or not?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

It is quite common-- you know, a Brig OIC or a company commander, because their concerns about the people under their charge-- you know, might have questions about that, and ask for additional explanation.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, ultimately though, obviously those questions, you would as the expert respond to say why your decision was the appropriate one, correct?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Right.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Did you have any issues with Pfc. Manning once he was taken off of his medication?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

No, he remained in complete remission-- symptom free after that.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Did you ever hear about an order being given by Colonel Oltman to keep Pfc. Manning in MAX-- in MAX custody and POI?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

You know, I think I might have heard about that second hand from Captain Hocter.  I was not-- I mean I wasn't there at the time.

 

Defense (Coombs)

From your perspective, if such an order where given would that cause concern as a mental health professional?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, only in that--

 

Judge Lind

--Hold on just a moment.  [to prosecution] Yes?

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

Objection, your Honor.  Not exactly sure what the order we're discussing is?  I mean he wasn't there, he's already said that it was second hand and now we are getting pretty far away from first hand knowledge.

 

Judge Lind

I'll overrule and let him ask the question.  Go ahead.

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, in that it's-- it's a-- it's like an additional consideration for making that determination, and actually one's that gonna, you know, obligate any need for the expression if he can handle it-- because, it's not going to matter. 

 

There would be concern in that regard.  If-- if you want the concern just from a military standpoint, that-- it's sort of getting out of one's lane to then start directing medical care.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, from your perspective when it comes to medical care, who should own that lane?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

That's sort of more of a philosophical question.  I mean to me that's a partnership between the me and the patient usually. 

 

Patient obviously has the ultimate decisions of, you know, what they're going to do with the care that I try to give them. 

 

I understand the military-- that, you know, commanders have a vested interest in that as well, so, you know, I do sort of take that into consideration-- but, ultimately when it gets down to the clinical part of it, that's up to me.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Were there other factors that the Brig was considering that were outweighing your clinical recommendations that they actually set down with you and said, 'Here are those factors that we are considering'?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

[Missed a word]-- Chief Warrant Barnes did explain to me that there were other criteria, and I believe she did discuss what some of those were. 

 

You know, just some in terms of, you know, any custodial decision that she might have to make. 

 

So, that would include the clinical piece-- you know, the clinical assessment of the condition, and then things like, you know, risk of flight; risk-- or vulnerability to exploitation; the severity of the charges; and, a host of others.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, so when you said she kind of explained it, did she actually show you, you know, 'Here are my issues,' or the one's you just--

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

--No.

 

Defense (Coombs)

-- mentioned is how she expressed it to you?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

No.

 

Defense (Coombs)

No, meaning?  I'm sorry, sir.

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

No.  She didn't-- she did not go through all of her reasoning and tell me why she was-- she was going to keep him on POI status.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And did you ever see other detainees come into the Brig that were on a, say, MAX and suicide risk-- or MAX and POI status and then eventually downgraded?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I do recall one other during that time period, but I wasn't involved in his care, but one of my fellows was.  So, we would discuss his case in terms of supervising her, the fellow.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Have you ever treated other patients that were held in their cell basically 23 hours a day?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I have.  I provided coverage at the DB [Disciplinary Barracks] at Leavenworth over a period of a year. 

 

I was stationed in San Antonio, and we would have a psychiatrist up there for one of [missed a few words] and they would do [missed word] medication [missed a word]-- you know, I did treat a couple of the inmates on death row there.  They were in similar circumstances.

 

Defense (Coombs)

So, the inmates on death row at the DB were under similar circumstances as the kind of status of Pfc. Manning?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, in terms of being MAX custody and the restrictions that that would have-- in terms of how much time in the cell, and how much time out of the cell.

 

Defense (Coombs)

I want to ask you a couple of questions about and incident that took place on the 18th January 2011, okay?  Do you recall an incident where Pfc. Manning might have had an anxiety attack while on recreation call?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Captain Hocter told me about that incident.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And what do you-- what do you-- what do you recall based upon that conversation?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I recall-- I recall-- I don't recall exactly what had happened, but I do recall that that there was some [missed word] disturbance and Captain Hocter actually, you know, came later. 

 

He wasn't at the Brig at the time.  I believe he was probably over in the clinic at Quantico.  He came over-- did an assessment, and he did have concerns.  I believe that there was some increase in risk at that point, and recommended some restrictions.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Retrieving from the witness, what has been marked 420 charlie-- appellate exhibit 420 charlie, and handing the witness appellate exhibit 423 alpha.  Do you recognize this?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I do.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, what is this form?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, this is from one of those Classification & Assignment boards.  And, this was-- I mean a couple of days later I was at the Brig and Captain Hocter had not filled out any of these forms for that incident, and they were asking for one for the records. 

 

So, all I could do at that point was review what Captain Hocter had done.   And he did document in his clinical note that he had made those recommendations.  So, I documented that-- that he had made that recommendation.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, so in this instance that indicates that Captain Hocter recommended 24 hour POI?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Retrieving from the witness appellate exhibit 423 alpha and handing the witness 423 bravo.  Can you tell me what this is, sir?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

It's another of the-- the Classification & Assignment forms.  The one that I had filled out on January 21, 2011.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, sir, why did you fill out this document?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

It was reassessing him after that incident, and at that point I had assumed his care.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, what was your recommendation regarding whether POI was needed?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

My comment that there was no psychiatric reason to keep him on POI.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And why was this your recommendation?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Because I thought that his risk of suicide at that point was, you know, at an acceptable base line-- I mean, you know, low risk. Not zero -- it's never zero, but it was low, like in terms of observation.

 

Defense (Coombs)

I want to ask you a few questions about some of the precautions then-- that in this instance that the Brig took base upon an incident that took place on 2 March 2011, okay? 

 

Do you recall on that day Pfc. Manning making any sort of comments to the Brig staff concerning his underwear?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

That-- at that point he had made a comment that, you know, if he really wanted to kill himself that he could use his underwear to do that.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Did you talk to Pfc. Manning about that comment?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I did after the fact.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, based upon your conversation with him how did you view that comment?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

You know, I didn't think that, you know, it expressed any plans or intent to commit suicide. 

 

It was really just sort of a-- a comment that-- you know, 'If you think I'm gonna increase your suicide-- well these are the things-- that if I wanted to commit suicide, I could.' 

 

That was the way that I viewed it.  Again, it-- it represents some lack of insight knowing that the scrutiny that he's under that he is still going to say something like that-- yet on the other hand, it's basically an honest answer to what was going on.

 

Defense (Coombs)

You indicated in your notes that Pfc. Manning was simply intellectualizing his frustrations with POI precautions.  Can you explain why you felt that way?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

He-- he was experiencing a great deal of frustration and he was trying to cope with that. 

 

And, if you-- if you consider defense mechanisms from a psychological stand point-- you know, one of his favorites is intellectualization. 

 

So, in order to deal with that, he would think about it in those terms.   And, so-- so he could make comments that would be, you know, purely from an intellectual standpoint without considering, you know, other ramifications about what that might be communicating to somebody else.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, can you give us an example of-- of that behavior, just in the abstract of somebody doing that? 

 

And it doesn't have to be a hardcore example as far as-- but why would somebody do that I guess-- you know, have that intellectualization of something and not understanding how it might be interpreted?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well-- it's-- it's really sort of a compartmentalizing. 

 

You know, the feelings that go along with that are-- are intolerable-- the frustration and, you know, anxiety might go along with that.  And, so to-- for the-- so, to divorce yourself from that you look at it purely from an intellectual standpoint. 

 

And, I think the-- this example sort of shares that-- where you want to talk about suicide precautions. 

 

You know, you sort of the-- it's an intellectual argument about-- or 'Here's this.  Here's that.'  And we can go back and forth, without considering that-- the people are going to interpret this differently. 

 

People are going to interpret this as, 'I'm thinking about this,' or they might retaliate somehow.  You know, any-- any other considerations that might come into [missed word].

 

Defense (Coombs)

In your experience if someone is actually planning to commit suicide-- or harming themselves, would they voice that and tell others?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Typically towards the end.  When somebody has made up their mind that they are going to commit suicide, they don't talk about it.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Why is that?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Because, they don't want to be stopped.  There is no ambivalence. 

 

You know, most people when they're feeling suicidal are gonna have some ambivalence about it, because they hurt so bad they want to die, but yet they don't want to die. 

 

They just want to stop hurting, and that would be lead them to have-- have observable behaviors or-- or say things about.

 

But, once somebody is really made up their mind, 'This is it,' they  typically actually feel a bit reassured by that. 

 

Then, 'Okay it's gonna be over with now.'  And, they wouldn't do anything that would help somebody to stop them.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Retrieving from the witness 423 bravo, and handing the witness appellate exhibit 423 charlie.  Can you tell me what this document is?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

This is the revision of the Classification & Assignment form that I had made.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And how did you revise the document?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well-- I mean basically I took a DA 3822 Report of Mental Status Evaluation and customized it in order to provide the input that I thought that they would need in the-- in the-- in an administrative type of determination I guessed.

 

Judge Lind

What was the name of that form you just said?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

A DA 3822.

 

Judge Lind

And what is it?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

A Report of Mental Status Evaluation.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Can you explain your findings section-- just go through each of your findings and explain what it means?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

The second section under the word, 'findings'?

 

Defense (Coombs)

Yes-- yes, sir.

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

The mental disorder was resolved meaning that at this point his anxiety disorder that I was treating before was in complete remission, and risk for suicide or self harm was low, and that's because is never non existent, but it is at least down to where the general population would be-- it's based on.  This X was, is, and always was low. 

 

And then, behavior disturbance is or is not a treatable mental disorder.  I mean the whole idea of having that-- that there, helps us to distinguish basically anti-social behaviors, personality disorders-- you know, things that people are going to do anyway, not due to anxiety or depression or psychosis-- something that we could treat. 

 

And, I marked that one applicable, because at that time he did not have a mental disorder. 

 

And, then there was no need to segregate him from the general population due to a mental disorder, realizing that there are other considerations for segregation.  And, requiring routine follow up.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Do you-- what is the date of your evaluation?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

March 5th 2011.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Do you recall the Brig trying to have you be present when Pfc. Manning was receiving his new charges, right [missed a word] along [missed a word] the Article 138 response on the 2nd of March-- two days earlier to this eval?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I-- I do recall that going on.  I mean I haven't seen my clinical notes. 

 

I don't recall exactly what I did there.  I-- I do see that this-- this evaluation reflects that with all that additional stressor that he had, I didn't see any change in his condition.  So, that he was-- he was coping normally at that point.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Were you aware of any sort of push from Quantico, to contact your higher command, in order to force you to be present on either the 2nd or 3rd of March?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

No.

 

Defense (Coombs)

During that time period, where were you at on the 2nd or 3rd of March?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I don't recall.  I was probably at the old Walter Reed Hospital on Georgia Avenue.

 

Defense (Coombs)

There's some documentation that you were on emergency leave?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I-- I don't recall.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Was 4 March your schedule time to see Pfc. Manning?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I am not sure.  If you could determine what day of the week that was-- I don't recall.  I think in general I was seeing him on Fridays at that point.

 

Defense (Coombs)

I believe that is a Friday.

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Okay.

 

Defense (Coombs)

So, from your standpoint, nobody tried to contact you and say that you were deficient in anyway for not being present on the 2nd and 3rd of March?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Not that I was aware of.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Retrieving from the witness appellate exhibit 423 charlie.  Thank you, sir that's all the questions I have for you at this time.  I think the Government will have some questions.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

Good morning, sir.

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Good morning.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

Just give me a second here-- I'm gonna try to organize myself.  Sir,  you were initially brought on as a consult to Captain Moore, regarding risk management?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Captain Hocter.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

Captain Hocter, excuse me.

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Yes.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, in January 2011 you took over as the treating psychiatrist for Pfc. Manning?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, I want to talk a little bit about your initial-- once you became the treating psychiatrist-- some of that Classification & Assignment forms.  Mr. Coombs earlier handed you a Classification & Assignment form dated 21 January 2011? 

 

Judge Lind

Any objection to this going on line with the same appellate exhibit D-E-F?

 

Defense (Coombs)

No objection from the defense, your Honor.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

No objection, your Honor.  I am handing the witness what has been marked at appellate exhibit 423 delta.  Sir, please look over this form for a second.

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Okay.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

What's the date of that form?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

January 28th 2011.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And can you read the remarks please?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

'Remains at moderate risk of self-harm, which has improved since arrival.  Would not require a higher level of psychiatric care to mitigate risk at this point.  Requires routine outpatient follow up.  Frustration tolerance has improved, but still somewhat below average.  Limited ability to express or understand his feelings.  Risks and benefits of POI are not further detrimental at this time.'

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

Sir, let's begin with the first sentence.  You said he 'remains at moderate risk of self-harm.'  You were aware that-- and actually you were as a consult-- as a consult to Captain Hocter you were aware that he was recommending removal of POI sometime after August.  Is that correct?  August 2010?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, during that time he was indicating that Pfc. Manning was at a lower risk of self-harm?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

Why did you say that he remained at a moderate risk of self harm?  I realize, you know, we are talking semantics-- but, I was wondering whether you thought that, that was a change in any way from what Captain Hocter had-- had previously indicated?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, there was a temporary increase in his risk after that anxiety attack episode in January.  This was in the aftermath of that. 

 

So, it was sort of recognizing that-- Yes, that degree of anxiety increases risk some, but I called it moderate, but it was still, you know, less than what he came in with-- which was-- was, I think, unequivocally higher when he first got there.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, you also said that the risks and benefits of POI are not further detrimental at this time, what did you mean by that?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, if you look at the additional stressors created by the additional restrictions of being of that POI status and whatever benefit that they might provide in terms of lowering his risk of self harm-- sort of balanced out. 

 

So, that, you know-- recognizing that, 'Yeah.  That is an additional stressor.  And, that is something, you know-- you know, we want to-- to do as little as possible'-- but, yet there is also some [missed word] risk here-- so there is some benefit to, you know, mitigating that risk with these restrictions-- and that, that would balance out [missed a few words].

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

Okay. Retrieving the appellate exhibit.  Sir, as you-- as you became acquainted with the Quantico Brig staff, it became somewhat apparent to you that they were  concerned about the risk of suicide.  Is that correct?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

Suicide was a-- or is a fairly high profile concern of many people in the DoD [Department of Defense] community?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, so specifically in the Brig, because they had had a suicide previously in the Brig, and so they were sensitive to that problem?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

That was my impression.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, you also thought it was uncommon for the Brig not to listen to clinical advice-- I'm sorry. 

 

You thought it was-- you thought it was uncommon for the Brig not to listen to clinical advice-- or  to listen to the clinical advice, but not to follow the clinical advice--excuse me. So, I just want to back up.

 

You thought it was uncommon for the Brig to listen to the clinical advice, but not follow the clinical advice?  Is that accurate?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I-- I think in my experience, most of the time clinical advice is followed-- but certain, you know-- some fraction of times, you know, commanders, Brigs, whatever are going to have other considerations and not follow that clinical advice.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

But, you'd agree that your clinical opinion or any other doctor's clinical opinion is-- is a piece of-- of the decision?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, when you were discussing-- or when you were the treating psychiatrist for Pfc. Manning, you indicated that you would meet with the Brig staff prior to being with Pfc. Manning?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, you would discuss there observations?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, then you would meet with Pfc. Manning--  and, then afterwards you would also discuss sort of your impressions of-- of your being with Pfc. Manning with the Brig afterwards?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Frequently.  I mean I always provided that written guidance if Chief Warrant Officer Barnes wasn't available or, you know, his-- his counselor at-- if they were available I would, you know, make sure that-- if they had any questions about what I was saying, or explain to them, I would give them, you know, additional input.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

But that was sort of the typical-- but meaning before and after was the typical routine?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

That was-- that was my typical routine.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, during your meetings with Pfc. Manning he was obviously frustrated by his status.  Is that correct?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, he would sort of give his version of events?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Uh--

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

--Or he would give his version of events [missed word]?  He would explain to you, what he perceived to be what was going on?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Yes.  In that-- I mean he was-- he would describe the same events that I had heard about from the Brig staff. 

 

I would also get their interpretation, sir.

 

And, I would talk to the staff about their interpretation of it, and then I talked to him about his interpretation of it-- and eventually I had to rely on him.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, so you were-- you were-- you were getting the-- sort of both sides of the story, whenever you would meet with Pfc. Manning?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, at some point it became clear to you that Pfc. Manning was contributing to the issues at the Brig as much as the Brig staff made them?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I don't know if I could say, 'as much as,' but he was certainly contributing something to them.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

He was-- he was provocative?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

At times.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

At times. And, although the Brig staff was a little rigid, they were professional?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And again, suicide had weighed-- weighted heavily on their minds?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Absolutely.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

Sir, I want to talk to you about the form used at the Brig for the weekly visits with Pfc. Manning. 

 

You indicated earlier that you-- sometime after you took over as the treating psychiatrist, you changed the form.  Is that correct?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct. It was-- it was just a local-- I mean homemade form that they were using, and-- and I didn't think it was actually provided useful information-- or as useful as it could be.  That is why I chose to revise it.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And you wanted-- you wanted to make the form more standardized?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

True.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

You wanted to the form to communicate relevant clinical information?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, the Brig staff appreciated the change?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Yeah.  They did.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

The form provided them more information?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

It provided them more helpful information. [Missed a few words] indications about different, you know, clinical impressions that I might have had, as well as some free form remarks; whereas the other form was mostly free form remarks.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

Sir, do you recall- I think you testified earlier that, you used some of your meetings with Pfc. Manning to talk about the days events.  That you felt it was helpful to have him be intellectually stimulized [sic]-- is that correct?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

You also-- do you recall making sort of that same recommendation in a form?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I-- I did.  I-- I  think on one of those forms I noted that he would benefit from increased intellectual stimulation, whether that was from, you know, books or, you know, whatever else that might be available at the Brig.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, do you know if the Brig ever followed up on that recommendation?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I believe that he told me that they did provide him some limited books or magazines, but they were very limited and not very stimulating-- as I remember.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

-- from his perspective?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

Sir, I'm gonna ask about sort of a clinical opinion as to-- certainly you would agree that reasonable minds could differ over the precautions necessary for pretrial confinement?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, even among doctors?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Absolutely.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, in some cases it might be appropriate for a detainee or pretrial confinee to be under prevention of injury status, even if the clinical opinion was that the risk of self harm was low or moderate?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Somebody can certainly, you know, reach a reasonable conclusion, that the-- the risk was greater than a clinical opinion might be.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

Just one moment, sir.  There are a couple of random questions.  Mr. Coombs mentioned toilet paper earlier. 

 

Are you aware of any-- you said from a clinical perspective it didn't make sense for the Brig to take away toilet paper.  Are you aware of any correctional reason for someone not to have toilet paper in their cell?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Yes.  I mean I understand from a risk standpoint-- you know, I'll say not in-- risk precautions in general at that point I didn't think were necessary from a clinical viewpoint. 

 

I understand that-- I mean there was a suicide within the last couple of years, where a detainee had stuffed toilet paper down his throat, and manage to asphyxiate himself that way.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

So, that could have been a reason  why the Brig could have decided, 'Better to just keep the toilet paper outside the cell,' just--

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I assume that reason for it, yes.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And finally sir, I just want to talk about Pfc. Manning transfer to the Joint Regional Confinement Facility.  Do you recall-- can you tell us about that time at least? Do you recall traveling with Pfc. Manning?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I did.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

And, can you describe how that came about?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I-- I don't recall specific details.  Somebody had asked if I would be available to do that-- just incase there was any--any problems along the way. 

 

If that was an additional stressor it might provoke an anxiety attack-- that sort of thing.  And, you know, I was available-- you know, I'm a flight surgeon-- you know I fly a lot anyway.  

 

So, I did do that.  And, I did it with the understanding that it was helping to alleviate the staff's anxiety as much as it might be alleviating any he might have.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

So, you felt it was a good idea?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

It was reasonable.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

Do you recall whether that was-- you were requested to do that through the command or through trial counsel from the command?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I do not recall who requested that.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

Would it surprise you if-- if it was trial counsel that had asked you do that?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

No. No-- because, I do remember a that time that trial counsel from MDW [Military District of Washington] was-- you know, coordinating a lot of that-- those activities.

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

Thank you, sir.

 

Judge Lind

Redirect?

 

Defense (Coombs)

Yes, your Honor.  Sir, I want to ask you a couple questions based upon the Government's cross.  You said, reasonable minds can differ on-- on medical opinions-- mental health opinions.

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Correct.

 

Defense (Coombs)

In your experience would reasonable minds differ for nine consecutive months?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

They can-- certainly.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And what would you expect to see in that nine consecutive months or if anything to justify reasonable minds?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I am not sure I understand.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Well, if people are looking at the same activity-- and you had earlier testified that you didn't see anything from Manning that said he was trying to harm himself; harms others; trying to escape-- what would you expect if somebody other than you came in and had a different opinion-- in order to have a reasonable disagreement?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, I would expect it to be based on some observation of behavior or something he had said.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, in this instance, would you expect to have a reasonable mind differ from you months after month if they also were seeing what you are seeing?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I can't say. There's so many things that go into--

 

Defense (Coombs)

--Sure.

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

--you know, at some point you say it's unreasonable.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Would there come a point?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, it depends. 

 

You know, this is a difficult area here, where I was developing clinical opinions to the lay person, who is also placing just as much value on their own observations as what my opinion might be. 

 

And, I realize that sometimes I am never going to convince somebody of what-- you know, they have strongly held beliefs about something, well now the interpretation or explanation on my part is going to change that. 

 

Defense (Coombs)

Now, Captain Moore had testified about learned helplessness.  Are you familiar with that term?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Yes.

 

Defense (Coombs)

What-- what is that term from your perspective?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

It's a concept that a -- related to depression-- that a-- you know, somebody is in a situation where repeated efforts to improve their situation are unsuccessful. 

 

At some point they give up.  And-- or even do those things which they can do to help themselves.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, do you see when someone has learned helplessness, maybe then be acted out or acting aggressive towards guards in a correctional standpoint?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Now typically its a much more passive sort of a-- so it wouldn't-- acting out would be something different.

 

Defense (Coombs)

What would you expect to see from learned helplessness?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

You know, apathy-- withdrawal-- just total acquiescence to whatever is requested.

 

Defense (Coombs)

No being as talkative?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Yeah.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Did Pfc. Manning ever express to you a desire to be out of the confinement conditions that he was in?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Yes. 

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, how did he do that?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, he would explain to me how he felt that some of these restrictions were unreasonable-- that they were unnecessary.  And, that they just increased his level of frustration.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, what would you tell him in response to that?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

You know, I could agree with it from his standpoint-- that that's true.  I would try to offer him different ways of looking at things.  Things that he might try to change that-- realizing that he limited options, because of his confinement.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Thank you.

 

Judge Lind

Any further questions from the Government?

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

No, your Honor.

 

Judge Lind

Alright Colonel Malone, I have some questions for you.  You said that Pfc. Manning told you that he believed his restrictions were unreasonable and unnecessary. 

 

You began working with Doctor Hocter when Pfc. Manning first arrived in late July, early August to the Brig.  Is that right?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Yes, your Honor.

 

Judge Lind

And, then you became his treating psychiatrist in January.  When did these-- when did Pfc. Manning first begin to tell you that he was frustrated with these conditions.

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Probably in February-- you know, at that point that I was seeing him regularly-- [missed a few words] relationship with him.

 

Judge Lind

When you saw him earlier with Colonel Hocter-- Captain Hocter, excuse me-- did he voice any of those-- that he wanted to be off of the POI or maximum custody?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I don't recall.  I don't think so. 

 

Initially, he was at a higher risk, and we talked about those things.  It was his thoughts and what was-- what was behind him engaging in behaviors or saying things that would make others think that he was suicidal-- as much as, you know, what precautions might have been taken.

 

Judge Lind

Did you know Chief Averhart?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I did.  I mean he was there when I first showed up [missed two words].  And, then I-- then I had, you know, doing other forensic evaluations there over the entire year of two-- he was the-- the OIC during that time.

 

Judge Lind

And, during that time-- that was when Colonel Hocter was recommending that Pfc. Manning come off of POI, and Chief Averhart  and the C&A board were recommending that he stay on POI. 

 

Did you have any discussions with Chief Averhart as to why the Brig was continuing on with those precautions?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

No. At that point my role was just as a consultant to Captain Hocter.  So, my discussions were with him.

 

Judge Lind

Did you have any observations as to the rapport between Captain Hocter and Chief Averhart?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

No.  I never saw them interacting.

 

Judge Lind

With respect to Pfc. Manning, what is your understanding of-- so whether he was on maximum custody whether he is on POI or not, what restrictions were in place on POI that would be different from just being in regular MAX custody with no POI?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

It was my understanding that POI entailed extra precautions, such as the suicide mattress and the smock-- those-- those sorts of things. 

 

And, then the limitations of what he might have in his cell.  And, with MAX is there is a certain amount of time in the cell-- limited time out of the cell-- and being checked on-- I think it was at least every fifteen minutes.

 

Judge Lind

I want to go back to your--  it was in-- 423 bravo and 423 delta. 

 

If the bailiff would please give the witness that-- that is the 21 January 2011 and 28 January 2011 forms. 

 

I'm having a little confusion following the timeline here.  As I understand it, the 18th of January was when there was an incident where-- I guess in the exercise room. 

 

The 21st we got your form saying, 'No current suicidal thoughts or intent. Come off POI.' And, then a week later we have the second form that says, 'Remains at moderate risk,' and 'Risks and benefits of POI sort of balance out.' 

 

What happened between the 21st and the 28th to make, I guess, your diagnosis-- your clinical assessment more in line with POI? 

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I don't recall.  I mean that would be documented in my actual clinical notes in the medical record.  I mean this is just the part that the Brig was going to see.

 

The medical records they didn't see.  Those went straight back to medical facility.  You know, that's where I typically document like what all of my clinical reasons might have been. 

 

And, I-- I don't recall when I wrote the note is an increase over that week.  I haven't seen those records since I wrote them.

 

Judge Lind

Where are they? Do you have any idea?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, they were maintained at the Brig, and then I believe they keep them at the-- branch clinic that was redesigned. 

 

I was under the impression that they were suppose to go on to Leavenworth with him.

 

Judge Lind

You said that you took Pfc. Manning off of his meds.  Do you remember when that was?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Not exactly.  I mean I did-- I can see the C&A form there where by March 4th he had been off of them for some period of time and was stable.  So, it was over the weeks before that. 

 

I don't recall how long of a taper I did-- but typically that's a [missed word] too-- to they actually taper somebody off of their medications so that they don't have symptoms from-- from the withdrawal of it. 

 

And then I would probably wait a couple of weeks to see how they were doing off of it before I would make some observations about it.

 

Judge Lind

Did Captain Hocter talk to you about his frustration that he believed that the Brig was not following-- was not considering his recommendation?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Yes.

 

Judge Lind

What did he say?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

What did he say?

 

Judge Lind

[Makes a sound in the affirmative, 'mm-hmm']

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well it was just that he was just talking about how frustrated that he was-- I-- I'm not-- I'm not sure-- he might have attributed that to just risk aversion about suicide because of the incident the year before.

 

Judge Lind

Were you aware that while Pfc. Manning was in Kuwait-- the records indicated that he was making nooses and saying things the doctors that, 'I am a patient man.  I can wait'?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Yes, Ma'am.

 

Judge Lind

How could that impact your evaluation-- your point of view of how [missed a few words] as time went by?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Well, that was certainly a big consideration early on when he first arrived from Kuwait. 

 

And, I believe even we talked about those things in my initial consultation with him. 

 

You know, he wouldn't-- he wouldn't divorce himself from those things.  He would acknowledge that, 'Yes.  That's true I said things like that. And, it is always true that I can always-- suicides always an option'-- that sort of thing. 

 

And he sort of intellectually talking about it-- not necessarily from an emotional standpoint.

 

Judge Lind

When you talked with Chief Barnes about other criteria that was causing her to keep Pfc. Manning on POI status, did she ever mention statements about being a patient man-- or anything of that nature when she was--

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I-- I believe she did.

 

Judge Lind

Did she ever ask you your thoughts about that?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I-- I believe she did. 

 

You know-- I mean certainly I was taking those into consideration, but to me-- I mean that is just one piece of evidence. 

 

I'm not gonna make any single piece of evidence totally to make my decision. 

 

So, over a period of time that I-- you know, get to know him better-- I understand  more how he thinks-- you know, how he reacts emotionally and what he is telling me-- and anything that I see over a period of time-- those become more and more important to my decision making and this other high risk information gets, you know, a little bit more in the past. 

 

Then it become less important for my decision making.  Now I think there-- and there were-- other people might think that, that piece outweighs everything else. 

 

At some point it didn't for me.

 

Judge Lind

When you testified earlier that you would have out briefs with Chief Barnes when she was available, was she available more often that not when you went down to visit?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

Probably half the time, I would think.

 

Judge Lind

And did you also talk to Chief Blenis as well-- or I mean Gunnery Sergeant Blenis?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I did.  He was one  I would typically talk to as a in brief to get his observations.  If he wasn't available, I'd-- I'd talk to the guards, you know, back on the unit, and see what they're offering to say.

 

Judge Lind

In your opinion, when you had these out briefs with Chief Barnes, who was ultimately-- would make the decision on whether Pfc. Manning would stay in maximum custody or POI status, which would be your realm. 

 

Did you believe that those were meaningful discussions and engagements-- I mean where their questions answered? 

 

Was she trying to probe-- you know on just the form-- on what you thought?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

They were.  We would have extensive discussions and I-- I would talk to her about, you know, my reasoning. 

 

She would talk to me some about hers.  I mean there were certainly times when it sort of took the flavor of she didn't really didn't like what I had written on the form, and she wanted to make sure it was-- 'I can't change your mind, but let me make sure I understand this.' 

 

So, I would spend some time justifying it to her.

 

Judge Lind

Why didn't she like what was written on the form?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I think because it was-- was-- it-- it made it more difficult for her to justify her decision to keep him on POI status. 

 

Of course that was when I said, that this is just another stressor adding to his anxiety.

 

Judge Lind

And, what was her response?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

She wanted me to explain that to her, and I did.

 

Judge Lind

After you explained it, did it appear that she understood your rational?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

It-- it did.  I think we sort of reach a point where we would agree to disagree or, you know, acquiescence but not acceptance.

 

Judge Lind

Explain to me the POI-- of POI and maximum security status are adding stressors-- it appears that you were weaning Pfc. Manning off of his medication and his stressful condition was getting better. 

 

I'm confused with what seems like a crossroads a little bit.

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

No--no you are correct. 

 

So, at some point-- even in spite of these additional stressors, he reached full remission.  [Missed a few words]-- I mean my point was just that-- that, it-- Okay.  It makes it a little more difficult for me to do my job-- or him to improve, but not insurmountable. 

 

I can't say what-- how much more rapidly would he have remitted had that not been a factor.  I couldn't say that.

 

Judge Lind

I think that is all I have.  Any follow up based on that?

 

Defense (Coombs)

Yes, your Honor.  Sir, looking at appellate exhibit-- I believe its 423 delta-- you indicated there that the risk and benefits of POI are not further detrimental. 

 

Are you saying there that POI is warranted?

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

I guess I worded it that way to say that looking at the risks and benefits-- it was sort of a wash. 

 

There's always some risk-- when you take somebody off of precaution.  There is always some risk.  If he had a little bit of an elevation in the risk then some of that would be warranted.

 

Defense (Coombs)

And, did you believe that at the time that you made that recommendation that you were telling the Brig that, 'Yes, you should keep him on POI?'

 

Colonel Ricky Malone

No.  I think at that point I was-- what I was trying to say is that-- that whatever consideration they gonna to give to the psychiatric piece to that is a wash. 

 

So, use whatever other criteria you're going to.  And you know, I made it a point to try to avoid saying, you know, 'He should be on POI,' or 'He should not be.' 

 

To me that was a custodial status.  And, my role was just to provide this one piece of input that-- that, that would be equivalent to me adhering [missed a few words]-- to [missed a few words].  How much time [missed a word] I think he should get-- that's not my role.  It's just to provide that one piece. 

 

So, that I tried to limit it to that, and to be as helpful as I could-- realizing that, that is the probably the single most important piece of information that they were going to consider-- or at least I thought it should be.

 

Defense (Coombs)

Alright. Retrieving from the witness 423 delta and then 423 bravo.  That is all the questions I have your Honor.

 

Judge Lind

Anything else from the Government?

 

Prosecution (Morrow)

No, your Honor.

 

Judge Lind

Alright.  Colonel Malone you are physically permanently excused.  I am going to ask that you leave a cell phone number with the representative from the Government, so in case we need to contact you by telephone to ask any additional questions if we do that. 

 

Please don't discuss your testimony or knowledge of the case with anyone other than the lawyers or the accused, while the proceedings are still going on. [to defense counsel]